| Author |
Message |
    
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1744
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 2:10 pm: |     |
cynicalgirl, we look forward to your results! 
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 286
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 2:57 pm: | |
Tee-hee, Tom! Maybe I'll convince the PTA to do a bakesale. I really have little idea as to cost of doing a stat valid survey that most all would consider useful. I think that anything other than that would do more harm than good.
Where I work, and I work online with internet marketing, etc., we often offer online surveys of various sorts. Really more like faux polls. And I agree, jfburch, that an ill-conceived one would be pointless. I'm saying I wish we could do the real deal on Maplewood the town (or M/SO) and then the schools. Not my area of expertise, at all, but I'd hope that a properly done one would be helpful to all parties. Same as my interest in getting real numbers on the "guest students."
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Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1747
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 2:59 pm: | |
This may scare you, but you may be the most qualified person for the job. All you need is the willingness. I hope you do it, too, because you may end up being happier than you are now.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 360
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 3:04 pm: | |
This is what auditors are for. Nothing about this is rocket science. All that's required is the willingness to act.
Frankly, I think this whole discussion borders on the absurd. |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 287
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 3:06 pm: | |
I misspoke, Tom. We have the technology apps for pop-up surveys and the like. We are not statisticians or researchers, which is what you'd need. Just geeks and project mgrs and designers, here, not researchers... |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1748
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 3:09 pm: | |
Cynicalgirl, if Montagnard will permit me to continue my absurdity, I still think you are probably qualified to gather statisticians and poll experts in order to pull this off. The reason we need you is that the willingness to do such a survey doesn't exist anywhere else.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 288
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 3:14 pm: | |
If a broader group of the powers that be aren't supportive, and help review questions and ground rules, results will be ignored. Can't be done effectively by anyone off his/her own bat (even if I had that kinda money; I was thinking more of offering $100 towards a fund..). As in, the Town Council or some such would need to endorse and sponsor -- could do a bakesale, I dunno.
Or, I guess that BOE entity could recommend, and then the BOSE (trying to get the terminology straight) could choose to fund or not.
Really, surveys that aren't approved would get just as torn up and dismissed as anecdotal info. The various sides have to approve the language etc. to be effective... |
peteglider
Citizen
Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 432
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 3:49 pm: | |
I'm a market researcher and statistician by trade. Be glad to help out (if help is accepted!).
I have significant experience with research for the educational community -- both secondary and higher education.
Pete |
ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 1815
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 7:12 pm: | |
Anyone remember the big "What's Your Ideal Spring Vacation" survey so that school could possibly end a week earlier in June than it usually does? Ha! Oh we really want everyone's input, ha ha snicker snicker....send out reams of surveys....haha snicker snicker...collect all surveys....haha snicker snicker....oh, sorry, we'll not change anything. |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 289
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 7:23 pm: | |
So peteglider, how would one proceed? Do you agree that the surveyors have to have buy-in to the process itself? I really think that "free advice" however stat valid will be ignored without that buy-in and input into questions.
How much do such surveys cost to do? I have no idea... |
Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 362
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 9:35 pm: | |
Okay, maybe it's not absurd, if it finally results in some action being taken.
We should be blunt about what this is, though. It's theft of services by people who have not paid for them. |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 291
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 7:02 am: | |
jfburch, thanks for the Verona survey link. I just read the article, and I really like the idea that the town felt moved to do a follow-up survey. This underscores my thought that a survey that isn't supported/initiated by what I called "the powers that be" won't be embraced and used.
I do see that someone doing a survey at all, and publishing the results, prompted the town to do its own. I know the issues related sample size, and sampling strategy, are important. Get the feeling that, optimally:
1. a group announces broadly that it will do a survey during a particular period, and that it proposes to do it according to a particular methodology
2. conducts the survey via an external group.
3. compiles the results.
4. publishes the results.
Here, I almost think (if the town council or SD didn't contain it) you'd have to have some level of oversight by key groups.
How would I go about suggesting a survey to the town council? Is the usual channel my district's representative? |
peteglider
Citizen
Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 435
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 11:30 am: | |
Cynicalgirl --
The trickiest and most critical aspect of a survey, is ensuring that we would have a representative sample of parents.
In in ideal situation -- we would want a list of all kids and parents in the district, randomly select sufficient quantitity that are statistically sound, then begin contacting them to complete the survey. (there are ways to work around this, with district cooperation)
Then there is the matter of who responds and who does not. "Non response bias" is a big issue in any survey -- in other words - what is different about participants vs non responderss. (there are ways to get around this, too).
Without talking more about how the survey is designed (what are the objectives?), how the results are analyszed (by school, neighborhood, age, income, etc) -- my greatest concern is to ensure privacy of each individual's responses. (that said, using an independent research company -- all those things can be addressed).
There is also the pragmatic issue of cost. In todays world, internet surveys are by far the cheapest and fastest way to conduct research. Telephone is better, but much more costly. So -- if we could identify a "random" sample -- and expect that most have email -- and they would be OK to be contacted by email -- that would be the way to go.
If this could be done with several volunteers, who work at research companies or have access to online tools (sounds like that is the two of us!) -- issues of data privacy could be ensured.
In terms of buy-in, my experience is that *everyone* involved needs to buy-in. In this case likely the Board of Ed/Administration, Teachers, Parents, our local town governments. That way participation is high, no one thinks its a secret process, and the expected learnings and limitations of this research are known upfront.
All that said -- I'd be glad to work on a proposal with you, to use as a strawman with the various constituencies. This will likely take longer than anything else in the process ;-) [and after that, the survey process itself seem like a breeze!] And I think we could probably get some or all of these services pro bono.
(BTW -- relative to Verona -- if in fact a representative 2% of the residents were included in the survey, the results would reflect the view of the majority! That's science vs the politics as expressed by the mayor)
Pete
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Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 295
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 12:39 pm: | |
peteglider, I'm going to privateline you towards conversing on a way to take this forward. I have no experience with doing this in a community setting; maybe together we can figure out a strategy, and then see if any other MOLers feel like getting behind it.
If anyone else is interested at the outset, please let us know.
I don't know, for instance, if one writes a proposal and then, say, goes to a town council representative, or what in terms of best possible path. |
harpo
Citizen
Username: Harpo
Post Number: 1076
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 1:50 pm: | |
cynicalgirl,
Sorry for the delay in answering your question. I think you should do whatever you conclude is in the best interests of your child. It has been my impression talking to parents of all ethnic and religious persuasions in Maplewood that this is exactly what all of them do, and all of them have their own myriad, idiosyncratic reasons for choosing public or private schools for their off-spring. In fact, I know families who have some kids in private school and other kids in public school. The answer is as much determined by the kid as it is by the school, and I'm not going to second-guess any parent.
Indpendent of parent surveys, if you are advocating investigations of M/SO students and their families, at a minimum please advocate investigations that are routine, town-wide, race-neutral and sensitive, and certainly not conducted to merely appease rumor-mongers or "finally prove" to them this is not the problem they think it is, which they have been authoritatively and repeatedly told many times. Too many people who advocate investigations have only expressed interest in investigating black schoolchildren, not white schoolchildren, and only those who walk home in the direction of Irvington at that (ever hear anybody talk about "illegals" from West Orange?) And they talk about doing it in ways I think most parents would find highly offensive and worrisome if their children were the targets. I've personally asked close to a dozen town officeholders, teachers and people active in school affairs about "illegal" students, and every one of them independently offered that this "problem" is being considerably exaggerated.
It is insufficient justification to targeting certain groups of schoolchildren for investigation to "prove" to a minority of adults that these children are actually innocent of any wrongdoing and have a perfect right to be in the schools. Needless to say, I'm opposed to spending taxpayer money on this "reassurance" or whatever you want to call it at the expense of the emotional well-being of a lot of kids and families -- especially when I suspect those already committed to the view that there is a liberal conspiracy to suppress this information will continue to believe that.
I've got no problem following through on the paperwork that establishes residency for ALL students as a mater of routine, and improving that process if needed. And there is wisdom in loudly advertising a tough registration policy, so we don't develop a "Field of Dreams" problem. I do not support spending money stalking students or entering homes, money that should be spent on educational programs.
I would also like to point out, just as an aside, that some people seem to think that when black families take in the children of relatives or friends, this is something that in itself should be outlawed in Maplewood (for them but not for us). I see absolutely nothing wrong and a lot right with a woman in Irvington or West Orange who can get no other job than working a midnight shift having her school-aged children take up residence with relatives or friends in Maplewood or South Orange. Maybe it is possible to get reimbursement from neighborhing districts or the state under such circumstances and that's the right way to handle it, but I think exactly the wrong way to handle it is to treat people as if they were criminals or send children back to unsupervised residences or force parents back into unemployment.
All of these problems would be much easier to deal with and certainly far less emotional were it not for the property tax system of funding schools. People who fight against that are dooming themselves to grievance-driven frustration and probably a lifetime of absurdly scapegoating fictional characters for their high tax bills.
Bobk and ffof,
I stick by my assertion that the majority of parents -- 51 percent -- in Maplewood/South Orange can afford other educational options than the public schools for their children, even if 51 percent cannot afford Pingry. People from all economic strata in the two towns send children to private schools, except possibly those in the very lowest income brackets (and even they may get financial aid to do so). Money is not the reason the majority of parents here send their children to public school. It's educational values -- including for many a decision that the overall values at Pingry or a parochial school are less desirable to them than that at CHS. No doubt there are parents here who want to send their children to private schools but can't afford to, but I don't believe that's the majority. True, some people would have to make noticeable changes in their spending habits to send their kids to private schools, but again, I don't think that's the fundamental reason they stick with M/SO. I think bottom line is they prefer these schools and this environment for their kids. If that ceases to be true, they'll act otherwise.
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Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 366
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 3:13 pm: | |
Presumably, then, you see nothing wrong in buying a ticket to a movie, then opening the fire doors so your friends can get in and watch it for free.
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ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 1823
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 4:27 pm: | |
51%? what? never mind. |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 296
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 4:34 pm: | |
harpo, maybe a rigorous re-registration process prior to 9th grade would do it. That would be broad, fair and equitable, if it included some real validation of residency.
I don't think anyone is trying to send Black or White children to unsupervised residences, etc. There is a path, though, for being a student here that they could follow, isn't there? All I for one am saying is do it legitmately to insure the schools get the money they need to serve the children. I do think it would be utterly wonderful if $$ passed from the "school of record" to "the school of choice." I think it stinks that the burden is on the parents. But then I can get into the idea of school choice/vouchers on occasion. |
lumpyhead
Citizen
Username: Lumpyhead
Post Number: 619
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 5:12 pm: | |
"I see absolutely nothing wrong and a lot right with a woman in Irvington or West Orange who can get no other job than working a midnight shift having her school-aged children take up residence with relatives or friends in Maplewood or South Orange".
Neither do I. If the child lives with the relative that is where they are legally domiciled. What if the child really lives with his parents and uses a relative's address. Is that okay? |
jfburch
Citizen
Username: Jfburch
Post Number: 1230
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 5:18 pm: | |
No, but there is some persistent and perhaps willful confusion between the two cases, and again, I would suggest, a perception/reality gap on the numbers of each. |
nan
Citizen
Username: Nan
Post Number: 1102
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 6:59 pm: | |
I have no idea where, why or what this survey idea would us help with, but there are some well know national opinions on public school (from, I think, Public Agenda) that give us something to think about.
Thanks in a great part to all the government/media generated negative publicity about public schools (see http://www.pdkintl.org/kappan/k0304bra.htm for discussion of Nation at Risk which was mentioned by Harpo), national opinion polls usually find that people think they are a failed mess. But, what's interesting is that they also think the school their kid goes to is fine. What I've noticed in the seven or so years that I have lived here is that MW/SO is an exception to this rule (or at least a variation).
Parents in MW/SO, even those strongly committed to the schools, seem to be the harshest and most demanding critics. Why is that? I ofthen think that some of it, not all, has as to do with misinformation and perception as it does with reality. Despite these doubts, I think most people end feeling good about their kid’s teacher or school—even if they hold negative perceptions of the district as a whole. And if they don't, they do what Harpo says they do--they put the kid in private school or move.
Before anyone accuses me of wearing rose glasses let me say that I do think there are genuine problems in our schools and many of those expressing dissatisfaction are not just making it up.. But, look at all the stuff we have to deal with! This place is to school issues the way Columbus, OH is to product testers.
We seem to have every national educational issue in spades: The achievement gap, possible gangs, test score pressure, gay issues, racial issues, adopted kids, drugs, old infrastructure, PC issues, tax/funding issues, the Reading War, scheduling issues, space issues, half day kindergarten, neighborhood relationship issues, bad and good press, AND (least I be charged with thread drift) illegal students (where it is presumed by people who criticize the schools as awful that there are hordes of people desperate to get in to them).
The only issue I can think of that we don't have is religious fundamentalists attacking the science curriculum. Reasons to be cheerful. I'd like to see another district that has all we have on the plate and does a better job. I like to see another district with such rich culture contrasts that it offers kids such a tremendous educational opportunity. No wonder whenever I see CHS students on TV they just seem so cool!
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Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 297
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 8:19 pm: | |
I agree that Maplewood has some urban issues that suburban school may not have, but not as many as one might think. For one thing, in suburban areas, you often have busing which brings urban issues to the burbs, and vice-versa. I think, actually, that the funding issues are probably the worst of it. Everything you cited we had where I used to live; funding structure was different, and property taxes were way lower.
When I paid $900 a year in property taxes (with an admittedly higher state income tax) I had a different attitude towards public education than I do paying 10 times that. And feeling like I and other parents have less of a voice.
I think it's a mistake to view M/SO as some plucky little engine that could, striving against the odds, and therefore be pleased that it's doing as well as it is. That's like being happy that an abusive boss only yells at you on Fridays, when s/he might yell at you 7 days a week. I get weary of this whole we're so special, our special challenges, aren't we brave to do as well as we do routine. I don't think Maplewood is so special. I think it's a very pretty town, with some very nice people, and a fair amount of mess lurking under the icing.
Sorry. Bad day. Thoughts stand, tho' |
nan
Citizen
Username: Nan
Post Number: 1103
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 6:03 am: | |
Cynicalgirl,
We have bussing issues here too, but they don't affect Clinton so you may not have come across them yet. My list was just what came to mind when I was writing--many more could be added such as gifted and talented, leveling, etc.
I don't get the abusive boss analogy because even there you have to see the whole picture. If someone is getting paid a good salary in the career they want to be in they are not going to walk away from a job just because the boss is a crank, especially when it is not all the time. After all, the boss may have good connections or a soft heart. All relationships have to be judged in larger terms.
For you, right now, it sounds like the bad outweighs the good. Not everyone comes to that conclusion and I don't think it's that you see the truth and the others are living in denial.
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ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 1824
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 9:00 am: | |
Cyng- THere's not that much mess - we just like to air our dirty laundry! Show me a New Jersey town that doesn't have something lurking under the surface and I'll show you an NJ town that does not have a pizzeria! |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 299
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 10:59 am: | |
ffof, I think you're right. Some days I make the mistake of thinking MOL is an accurate microcosm of all of Maplewood, forgetting that not everyone is on here, airing and venting. I need to get out more.
nan, I started out with a cliche about an abusive partner, and then thought "whoa, that's probably offensive." What I was trying to get across is an idea that some things are never acceptable, and that it can be easy to forget that life/marriage/work/school shouldn't have to be that hard when one is embroiled in the situation. Then, you take a walk down the road to another town, family, school and have the epiphany "Hey, not everyone hates going to school, gets slugged by their spouse, harrassed by their boss -- maybe I shouldn't accept this." Some days I feel like -- based on MOL and some chats with other parents -- that folks are accepting some unacceptable things just because they can't believe things could actually get better.
Reminds me of that movie, As Good As It Gets. Helen Hunt is saying to the Greg Kinnear (I paraphrase) 'Well, everyone has a story, an unhappy family, that's normal, aren't you brave' kinda thing. Then Jack Nicholson says 'Nah...some people really have the macaroni sald at the picnic by the lake, the happy family, etc.' He's not into the usual relativist hogwash that keeps us from admitting that some people really do have it better. I'm with him on that point. I feel like if we don't try for better, and really take the measure of the parts that are bad, we'll just formlessly wallow. I'm actually rather idealistic, and sometimes it's a problem. |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1767
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 11:44 am: | |
Whoa there, cynicalgirl. Every life has its struggles, and every town has its disadvantages. Whether or not they're intolerable to YOU is the question. I think we have been frank about the challenges we face. Challenges can be good, too, you know.
I am too much of a newcomer to say whether the school district is serving the population well, but I've been looking at the dirty laundry, and so far, things look good on balance, especially because many people are willing to face the bad things.
As for my own daughters, the district is serving one very well. The other remains to be seen, but so far, things look very promising.
And what else can I do but to look at things that way? No buyer's remorse, at least not yet, and I don't expect any. In fact, if I find myself moving before my younger graduates high school, I bet any regrets will be mild and in a decent perspective.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 300
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 12:39 pm: | |
I agree, Tom. And I'm glad it's working for you. I'm still on the fence, and I would think the town would like to know, a little more clearly and little more objectively, what the customer satisfaction level looks like (for wont of a better way of terming it). Clearly, there's some dissatisfaction, but no one has a good handle on how much.
Personally, I'm trying to assess how valid some of my concerns are, and how many share. If a minority, then I know what I need to do. But, if there're are others who share some of my concerns, but who are silently choosing away from this town or these schools, I think it's fair to give them a voice.
Of course all town have disadvantages. So why not overcome them where one can, and it's desirable? Why not work on the school budget problem where one can, whether it's in terms of recommendations on staffing, or getting paid for guest students? And if a lot of people don't like the gym curriculum, why suffer through it?
If I learned that only 5% of people shared my concerns, and there were only 1% guest students, that would tell me what I need to know. If 25% of people shared my concerns, and there were 5% guest students I might feel like we should get our voices heard and I would feel differently. I'd just like to know, in other than anecdotal ways on MOL and the odd neighbor chat, what people are really thinking, and doing about it. If we don't even know how many current residents are choosing away from the public schools, or choosing to move out of the town for the same reason, we have no data. All I see is extrapolation on fringe's wonderful site, but no urge on the part of the town or the BOE to know a little more certainly, and respond.
I am too much of a newcomer, and I've had a mixed experience with Clinton. Got me thinking, and looking to see who else. Maybe there's enough of certain similar issues, across enough people, that they should/could join together for change. It's easy to feel alone on some of this stuff. Maybe I'm not. |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1769
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 12:55 pm: | |
I agree. The extent of consensus and the extent of the measurable problems matter. Please see what you can do with your survey. It might end up being an excellent public service.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 301
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 1:54 pm: | |
My weakness is that I like numbers, if discovered rigorously. Too much time in university and liberal arts PhD environments to trust rhetoric alone (even tho' I sink to it myself...). Not heard back from peteglider as yet, and trying to learn more on my own about best strategies for bringing a thing forward to the town council, as a citizen... |
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