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Message |
    
thegoodsgt
Citizen
Username: Thegoodsgt
Post Number: 317
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Monday, December 1, 2003 - 11:53 am: |     |
The San Francisco Chronicle recently ran an article questioning the use of computers in schools, particularly in the younger grades (K-8). This quote from the article seems to sum it up best: "Fancy software programs automate design and math functions so beautifully that students don't have to think through much of their work anymore."
Here's the full article:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/11/30/ING8L39SIP1.DTL
To those of you with children in the local elementary schools, how are your children using computers in the course of their schoolwork, both in the classroom and at home? Based on your own educational and work experience, are our children losing something with this emphasis on computer use that the Guardian discusses? |
mommydee
Citizen
Username: Mommydee
Post Number: 68
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, December 1, 2003 - 12:27 pm: | |
My daughter is only in second grade at Tuscan and as of now their computer use has been very minimal. I am not sure what is being done in the upper grades. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 1580
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, December 1, 2003 - 1:41 pm: | |
IMHO the problem begins when they get to use calculators to do basic arithmetic.
I was at a concession stand this summer, put a $5 bill down, and asked the young counter guy how much bottles of water cost. He said, $1.25 and after a beat I said "I guess I'll take four." His comment, "you did that fast!"
Anyway, that's indicative of the kind of problem that sends my kids racing back into their rooms for their calculators. |
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1224
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 1, 2003 - 2:18 pm: | |
Computers, like so many other tools, can be used, abused, and misused. They are not a substitute for good teachers. Good teachers will use them well, and they will refuse to use them at the right times. Bad teachers will abuse, misuse, overuse, or underuse them.
Our problems in education probably haven't changed, though I agree that reliance on technology to do basic things is a problem. And I agree that computers aren't all that useful in elementary school.
Tom Reingold
There is nothing
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Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 203
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 1, 2003 - 9:12 pm: | |
I think the reliance on calculators, too early on, is a bad thing for the reasons you guys allude to. I like, however, computer software and games that either provide drill and practice (spoonful of sugar), mathematical thinking skills, etc. My kid has, and has had, a bunch of them over the years and she both enjoys them and gets a lot out of them. She's pretty competitive so the ones where you have to do some kind of math, or pattern recogntion, or more to advance the game really appeal to her. Beats the hell out of traditional worksheets. And, kids like getting the feedback right away I think.
The school doesn't seem to have much of this, or have much time allocated to it. OK for my kid, as she has it at home. And the library seems to have some (the public library, that is). |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 204
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 1, 2003 - 9:27 pm: | |
Just read the article in the original post. I pretty much agree. If it comes down to a choice between buying computers/software/maintenance, and more teachers or books/materials, I'd vote for teachers and materials.
But not supervisors, or chairpersons or other district gobbledygook functions.
I do have some worry that kids who don't have access to comuters and ed software elsewhere will be at some disadvantage, though.... |
spw784
Citizen
Username: Spw784
Post Number: 413
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 7:43 am: | |
Cynical Girl - re
>The school doesn't seem to have much of this, or
>have much time allocated to it. OK for my kid, as
>she has it at home.
It's hard when an Elementary computer lab only has an average of 12-13 computers, class sizes are approaching 24-25 kids (which means 2 kids on a computer), and the number of classes increases. There is only so much time in the week, so hopefully the kids get into the lab to use the computers once a week, for 30-45 mins.
Also, the elimination of the tech facilitators at the elementary level (instead of one per school, there are now 2 for all 7 buildings), has impacted the computer lab situation. If something locks up, freezes, crashes, etc, there is no one permanently on site to fix it immediately. Often a note is placed on the machine (or a call made to the tech person) and when the tech person next arrives in the building it is fixed. The tech person is assigned to one day in each building, so if something happens on an "off" day, it gets added to the list of "things to be done". |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 205
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 10:15 am: | |
spw784, I agree. Based on what I hear of how technology is funded, one could almost argue that they should just plain get rid of it (except for teacher machines). To have not enough, not properly maintained is a tease. Can't really incorporate it into any class, freetime or afterschool activity...
Totally weird sideline thought: I begin to feel about things the district gets its hand on about how I feel towards the IT establishment where I work. Any money, etc. going into either seems to go down a sort of black hole of entitlements, backward thinking, setting agendas that serve their own needs. Some days my solution to both is just to outsource as much as possible to retain user control...
So what's the relevance? Guess I'm wondering how many schools subcontract the "rental" of computers, software and maintenance, and whether or not that works better -- to the extent folks want it in the schools at all..
Couldn't help myself. Working at home today with a sick kid and dealing with a lot of one sort of problem... |
Lambda Lover
Citizen
Username: Lambdalover
Post Number: 12
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 10:54 pm: | |
I think that the answer is to make computer programming (and computational models in general) a fundamental part of K-12 education. If children build their own calculators, they will not lose the ability to perform arithmetic (or whatever kind of system they model).
Incidentally, this also has the potential to solve Cynicalgirl's problem, which I believe is a sign of a widespread general organizational inability to handle computational models of business processes.
We're in a world where everybody's a programmer, only they don't all know it yet.  |
Reflective
Citizen
Username: Reflective
Post Number: 272
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 12:39 am: | |
Totally agree with spw784's assesment and the reaction of others. Before Super H, his predessor,Ralph Leiber, was able to get a number of computers donated. He felt that technology was vital to the learned skills of our students. High ideals that most of us would agree with.
Most of those computers rotted from disuse. Why??
The Teachers Needed To Be Trained! High cost, ect.
Shift forward, if I were hiring teachers every one would be computer literate. and their reports, school prep would be done electronically.
And if a teacher today weren't computer literate, they should take a $10,000 pay cut.
The good news is that most young teachers are well advanced and the older ones shouldn't be able to hide. They are making too much money not to be able to have these skills. If they do, the students will follow.
Saucy footnote: Go to our libraries after school and watch the kids surf and research.
So let's just take the hardware out of the schools where it is gathering dust.
Of course super H, the union and the BOE would end up with a technology-less school.
Now, they have a technology school rating, it's only on paper. |
sac
Citizen
Username: Sac
Post Number: 876
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 10:45 am: | |
On a somewhat related note, I sure would like to see a requirement (along with appropriate support) for teachers to post assignments and current study topic descriptions no later than a same day basis (preferably in advance as part of class prep) on an Internet website where students and parents could access the info. This would sure help parents to keep up with what the kids are doing as well as make it easier to manage makeup work for student absences. Many districts do this ... why can't ours? |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1806
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 10:48 am: | |
Yeah, sac, I like that. How about each assignment, with description and due date. And once you enter a username and password, you have data on a student, with the date each assignment was handed in, and the grade.
This would work if the teachers were computer savvy. Some are and some aren't. Some have told me that sending them email is pretty useless. I am grateful, though, for those who are accessible by email.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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Marc
Citizen
Username: Bautisma
Post Number: 72
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 11:24 am: | |
Reflective: The summers off make the profession enticing, but do teachers really make that much money
Tom: I think its a great idea to have the capabilities to view a students assignments and grades. I also don't think it would be that hard for a teacher to use such a program. People may not go for the cost of development and maintenance of such a program. |
Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 376
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 11:32 am: | |
If you can afford to live in Maplewood, you can afford a computer for your kids. This isn't something we need the District to do.
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Marc
Citizen
Username: Bautisma
Post Number: 74
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 11:52 am: | |
My cost question was not related to each student having access to a computer, it had to do with the software program that keeps track of all the students grades. For example the program would probably have to sit on a web server somewhere with a database holding all the data. Neither the database nor the web server is cheap, nor is the person who maintains them. |
peteglider
Citizen
Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 445
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 12:11 pm: | |
There are several well regarded, highly used "electronic gradebook" software packages.
Some are basic, others link to web based tests and homework, and can be stand alone or networked.
At the college level, many publishers now make their tests and other materials in compatible formats. This is *coming* to the lower grades, too.
I doubt that in a district like ours which puts so little emphasis on technology, that something like this could be implemented. At minimum, each teacher would need a pc at their desk and then a secure infrastructure.
To me its even more basic -- just like when I was in grade school school 40 or so year ago, the teachers send attendance to the office as well as notes with a young volunteer (who relishes that responsibility, of course!).
So kids never see how a pc could be integrated into taking attendance, how email works in a business setting, etc.
I have a theory that in most schools (whether as tech poor as ours or not) -- most kids see pc's mainly as an entertainment devices, more than a tool for getting their work done, as a reference desk, etc.
Pete
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Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 339
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 12:46 pm: | |
Seems to me I've seen asp and homegrown versions of this kind of thing at the college level where it's fairly common to have the syllabus and assignments online...maybe not the grade computation (and attendant privacy concerns) but the rest of the assignment mgt. As a parent, I'd like it a lot. |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1813
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 1:10 pm: | |
The Luddite in me is starting to come out. I'm an IT guy in the day, but I'm not convinced this would be a good use of our money.
My high school didn't even have a PA, and we were better off that way.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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sac
Citizen
Username: Sac
Post Number: 878
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 2:28 pm: | |
Unless I'm wrong, the attendance is entered on computers in the classrooms and each classroom has a computer. I'm pretty sure that I have observed this being done at Seth Boyden anyway. |
algebra2
Citizen
Username: Algebra2
Post Number: 1560
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 3:09 pm: | |
http://www.trevornet.org/avilla/algebra2.htm
every teacher at Trevor Day must have their assignments posted online. |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1823
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 3:33 pm: | |
I almost see a connection to how you got your name, but not quite.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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algebra2
Citizen
Username: Algebra2
Post Number: 1561
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 3:38 pm: | |
No connection. I have a young friend at Trevor and help him and his dad keep track of his homework assignments. I just remembered from last year that the Algebra teacher had a very helpful webpage.It is a great help to parents when every teacher has a webpage.
Algebra is my cat's name. She's 11 and a very special cat. |
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