| Author |
Message |
    
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1635
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 5, 2004 - 10:44 pm: |     |
OK, let me get this straight. He betted on baseball which is strictly forbidden. Everyone knows the rules and why they are there. And he denied it but was banned anyway. And he denied it for years.
Today, he admits that he had betted. And he said, "That was my mistake, not to come clean for all this time."
Now just a second. He said it took him too long to come clean? And that's his only crime? So what does that mean? That if you admit your wrongdoing early on, then you should be exonerated right away? What about consequences for one's actions? And if waiting so long to come clean is a mistake, then why should he be exonerated now?
I see a trend in our culture where admitting one's flaws is supposed to be so admirable that you are suddenly seen to be perfect or maybe better than perfect. If that's the case, then what is virtue supposed to be?
Tom Reingold
There is nothing
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johnny
Citizen
Username: Johnny
Post Number: 798
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 1:07 am: | |
I'm sorry Tom, but "betted?" |
dytunck
Citizen
Username: Dytunck
Post Number: 150
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 1:17 am: | |
He bet on baseball when he was a manager, not a player.
He never bet against his team.
He never threw a game.
He's the greatest hitter of all time.
He played his all every day.
People bet on baseball every day.
I don't think I know anyone who hasn't bet on Baseball, NCAA Basketball, Superbowl, Poker, or in Vegas. Betting is not illegal, necessarily.
TTPP, I say vote in Pete Rose as a Hall of Fame player, but not as a manager. Separate his two baseball careers, much as you would for Joe Torre or any other manager, for that matter.
Dytunck
Dytunck
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bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4202
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 5:05 am: | |
For 15 year Rose denied betting on baseball. He now has admitted it in the hopes that he will be allowed into the Hall of Fame.
Personally, I think he will make it eventually, however, probably as a veteran selection long after he has passed on to the big casino in the sky. |
lseltzer
Citizen
Username: Lseltzer
Post Number: 2031
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 6:28 am: | |
Yesterday in an interview on ESPN radio Fay Vincent (commissioner after the death of Bart Giammatti) said that he knew that Rose bet on games while he played with the Phillies. I've never heard this before so I suppose it's not in the Dowd report. I don't think it makes any moral difference.
It also doesn't make any difference that he never bet against his team. If he doesn't bet for his team every day, on the days he doesn't bet he's effectively betting against his team. This sort of moral hazard is why the ban on gambling is so absolute.
And it's clear his admission now is for self-serving purposes, to plug his book. He says he's sorry it happened, but he refuses to say he's sorry he did it and that he's sorry for the harm he caused to the game and to his friends. The guy's every bit the creep he's always been made out to be.
All that aside, the compromise on this is so obvious it amazes me that it doesn't get more attention: Pete Rose should be banned for life from any position of responsibility in baseball. No managing, no coaching, no general manager, nothing like that. But he should be allowed to attend games, to make public appearances with and for teams, and he should be in the hall of fame - what can the hall of fame mean if Pete Rose isn't in it? This is all Rose is really interested in, since it lets him make some money.
Obviously he deserves to be in the hall on baseball merit alone. The only argument against this is that there should be a morals test for entry into the hall, and this is hypocrisy because gambling is the only moral issue baseball has ever attmepted to use to block an entry to the hall. |
Greatest Straw of all time!
Citizen
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 1714
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 9:07 am: | |
Baseball has been a joke ever since the owners decided they no longer needed a real Commissioner. Instead they appoint one of their own and in that time George Steinbrenner is re-instated though he tried to blackmail one of his players and now we see a man who bet on baseball, a cardinal rule of the game forgiven. The whole thing is B.S.
Rose was an all time great, but so too was Shoeless Joe Jackson. I'm sorry Rose should have been told to go to hell.
A freakin liar just like Clinton as far as I'm concerned.
I use the Clinton example when discussing a liar because Bill was the greatest liar of my lifetime.
BUSH/CHENEY IN 2004.. |
Ignatius J
Citizen
Username: Ignatius_j
Post Number: 144
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 9:12 am: | |
There's no reason he shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. As far as I'm concerned, his transgressions as a person should not in any way diminish his accomplishments on the field. If they can give someone like Steve Howe seven chances to overcome his drug addiction then they should show a little compassion for Rose's gambling addiction.
There are plenty of people in the Hall of Fame that are not model citizens. Ty Cobb, the first player ever elected to the Hall of Fame assaulted a heckling fan and was disliked widely by the press and opponents, and today is remembered for his violent behavior off the field and for his racist attitudes but even those who disliked him personally acknowledged his skill as a player.
Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame as well. |
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1639
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 9:15 am: | |
I like lseltzer's suggestions and his reasoning.
Ignatius_J, thanks for reminding me that gambling can be an addiction. And what about maintaining a lie for years? Is that an addiction that can't be helped, too? What about not understanding that wrongdoing has consequences? Sounds to me that he thinks a confession, a very late one, at that, absolves him from everything.
Tom Reingold
There is nothing
|
Hank Zona
Citizen
Username: Hankzona
Post Number: 911
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 9:21 am: | |
Our current president was part of the fraternity of baseball team owners who appointed one of their own...hmmm. Anyhow, back to Pete Rose. Many a shady character is in the Hall of Fame, based solely on their on field performance. He deserves to be in based on his stellar on field achievements. Keeping a guy like him out, one so focused on personal statistics and milestones, probably has hurt him. As for admitting fault with no remorse, its not just the content of a mea culpa but how the message is delivered. He seems to be making the admission in a "lets get this over with" manner. But I give him a little credit for at least admitting he was wrong...thats something one doesnt see on MOL all that often for example, or in most of our society for that matter. |
DrFalomar
Citizen
Username: Drfalomar
Post Number: 120
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 9:25 am: | |
So now we know Rose is a liar as well as a crook.
The rule against betting is extraordinarily clear: Bet on baseball while a part of the game and you are banned. I don't care how good a hitter he was. He broke the most significant rule in the game--the one that upholds the integrity of the game, not just its image--and he should be tossed for life. Why should he be accorded some special privilege, entrance into the Hall of Fame, just because he was more skilled than others? That there is pure elitism.
Maybe I missed the class on forgiveness in CCD, but showing remorse should not exonerate one in any way from what they are asking forgiveness for. An apology should never cloud an act. But this is the asinine world we live in: Say you're sorry and, as Rose asked (and Clinton and Limbaugh et al.), "Let's move on." No, let's not. He deserves the shame and humiliation he has already received and all he should receive for the rest of his life. |
Duncan
Citizen
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 1398
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 9:30 am: | |
THREAD DRIFT ALERT
uh Straw..
quote:I use the Clinton example when discussing a liar because Bill was the greatest liar of my lifetime.
...
that honor would have to go to Richard M. Nixon. Sorry bud.
PTI
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"
Wayne Gretzky |
ashear
Citizen
Username: Ashear
Post Number: 894
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 9:33 am: | |
Okay, I feel a little ill but I have to say it, I pretty much agree with Strawberry (with the exception of his irrelevant last two lines, which are also inaccurate, Bush is a much better liar than Clinton). Shoeless Joe is exactly the right comparison and Ty Cobb is exactly the wrong one. There is a big difference between being a jerk and doing something that impairs the integrity of the game (Rose happens to fall into both categories while Joe Jackson only into the later). Remember Jackson did not do anything to throw the game or take any money, he just kept silent while his teammates threw the game. I don't know if Rose bet on his own team or not but given how self-serving his statements are I have no reason to beleive him. |
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 2647
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 9:39 am: | |
Ignore the thread drift.
Except for this. Yesterday had two interesting baseball stories. One was about a classy guy, who embodied everything that people love about the game. Unfortunately, Tug McGraw passed away. The other story involved Pete Rose.
Tug McGraw had to pass away, to get the kind of press coverage that Pete Rose got by admitting that he lied. Fair's fair, so they should tell Pete that he'll get in the Hall of Fame after he passes away. |
Greatest Straw of all time!
Citizen
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 1715
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 9:44 am: | |
Hey Tug Mcgraw was a local hero who had some very fine years but he's not Pete Rose. It's kind of silly to compare a decent closer to the all time hits king, Nohero.
BUSH/CHENEY IN 2004.. |
DrFalomar
Citizen
Username: Drfalomar
Post Number: 123
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 9:46 am: | |
Ashear
Actually, Rob Neyer in his book of baseball lineups very effectively disputes the notiong that because Shoeless Joe played so well he must not have been in on the fix. He played extraordinarly well in the games that weren't fixed (two and four, I think), but terribly in the games that were, hitting only when there was no one on base and hitting a home run only late in a game that the Sox were losing by six runs. In addition, he made an incredible number of errors in left field. So his likely culpability has been masked by the overall statistics. |
Yogi
Citizen
Username: Yogi
Post Number: 37
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 9:48 am: | |
Rose is an idiot. He gambled his future away. Maybe give him Hall of Fame status after he passes away. Maybe. |
Redsox
Citizen
Username: Redsox
Post Number: 387
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 10:06 am: | |
yogi,
i agree somewhat-
not while he's alive, and certainly no ceremony |
Ignatius J
Citizen
Username: Ignatius_j
Post Number: 145
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 10:47 am: | |
He broke the most significant rule in the game--the one that upholds the integrity of the game,
The integrity of the game??? You have players that are drug addicts, players who use steroids, players who cork their bats, players who beat up the grounds crew of the opposing team and players who spit on umpires when a call doesn't go their way. No wonder it's called America's Game.
I just don't think Pete Rose's failings as a person should be held against his acheivements on the field. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 630
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 12:12 pm: | |
If he does make it into the Hall, do it after he's dead so he doesn't have any opportunity to profit from that Hall selection. |
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 2650
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 12:15 pm: | |
I would just like to note that cjc and I have found something we agree on. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 631
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 12:22 pm: | |
Wow! I'll play the Lotto today! |
DrFalomar
Citizen
Username: Drfalomar
Post Number: 125
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 12:23 pm: | |
A guy does drugs or corks his bat, he affects his individual performance. And while this might end up being the clinching factor in a game, it's not nearly so certain a factor as someone deliberately trying to lose because he can profit from the loss. The former tarnish image; the latter ruin the game and make it crooked.
And to say that gambling on games, with its inherent conflict of interest, is a matter of personal "failings" is just absurd. What if a crackhead kills your wife to steal her money to buy drugs: Are you going to excuse that personal failing and "move on" afterwards because crack is also an addiction so the murder is understandable? Bull. No, holy f--king s--t, man. If he's got an addiction, that's too bad, and I wish him luck in conquering it. But to say he's not culpable for bad acts committed as a result of the addiction is to strip society of personal responsibility. He chose to start gambling, so he's got to face the consequences. |
Marvin Gardens
Citizen
Username: Marvin_gardens
Post Number: 51
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 12:31 pm: | |
What if a crackhead kills your wife
That might be the stupidest example I've ever read. I truly hope you're not a real doctor.
_______________
Do Not Pass Go |
DrFalomar
Citizen
Username: Drfalomar
Post Number: 126
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 12:42 pm: | |
Perhaps extreme, but not stupid. Here's another:
Do you think Hinkley should have been allowed unsupervised visits with his parents because he's somewhat cured? Or should he be in some hole somewhere now that he's cured for shooting Reagan?
In other words, should addiction of any sort exculpate a person from a crime? |
Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 6061
Registered: 4-1998
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 11:48 pm: | |
He's still lying, according to his bet runners.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/baseball/mlb/01/06/bc.bbo.rosegambling.gio .ap/index.html?cnn=yes |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4210
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 5:07 am: | |
This year Rose got fewer write in votes for the Hall of Fame than in the past. Yippee! |
Fruitcake
Citizen
Username: Fruitcake
Post Number: 52
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 9:11 am: | |
Strawberry,
I’d give the nod to Ronald Reagan. He put over a lot of preposterous stuff, especially during the Iran-Contra affair. On the other hand, maybe Reagan doesn’t count since he was often confused. Maybe he sincerely believed the BS he was spewing and therefore wasn’t lying.
|
Greatest Straw of all time!
Citizen
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 1725
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 9:38 am: | |
Fruitcake,
I can't really spend my morning arguing over Reagan's track record. There are two camps on this one. Those with brains appreciate the Reagan years. On the other hand, idiots think Reagan was a lousy President.
It's that simple. Also don't forget vote..
BUSH/CHENEY IN 2004.. |
parkbench87
Citizen
Username: Parkbench87
Post Number: 363
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 10:07 am: | |
Pete Rose maybe the all time hits leader and had an amazing career on the field. That being said the Hall of Fame will survive without him. All this crap about "there can be no Hall of Fame without Pete Rose" is just that crap.
Gambling is the cardinal sin of Sports. If people even think that someone is trying to throw a game they will turn away in droves. I'm in Boston for a couple of days and the columnist Dan Shaughnessy had a great example about the Bill Buckner play in the World Series. He wrote "Here's the deal. When the ground ball trickles between the legs of the first baseman- allowing the winning run to cross the plate in the World Series - absolutely no one wonders whether the game is on the level. There's no wild speculation that the fix is in. It's just a error, a physical mistake made by a human being."
The Hall of Fame has Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Micky Mantle, Tom Seaver, Bob Gibson, Cy Young, Sansy Koufax, Roberto Clemente and many more great players. It will survive without Pete Rose. He does not deserve the honor. |
barbara wilhelm
Citizen
Username: Bartist
Post Number: 95
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 10:53 am: | |
IMO Charlie Hustle is still hustling us. |
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