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Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 2659
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 5:47 pm: |     |
Apparently, here they are:
Source: Washington Post |
Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 6080
Registered: 4-1998
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 5:48 pm: | |
ROTFLMAO!!
no, i haven't read the story yet, but if this is the extent... I'm in serious trouble if someone gets a hold of my sketchbook |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 2286
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 6:57 pm: | |
How the hell did they pictures of my grill, and a copy of by secret pancake batter? |
Greatest Straw of all time!
Citizen
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 1728
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 7:13 pm: | |
IS THAT THE NOTE BOOK THAT KILLED ALL THE KURDS??
BUSH/CHENEY IN 2004.. |
wharfrat
Citizen
Username: Wharfrat
Post Number: 910
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 5:49 am: | |
We have short memories, don't we Straw. A year ago our govt. was making the case that Sadaam had to be taken out because he had WMD, and was going to use them against us.
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sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 10577
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 7:39 am: | |
How long in your memory?
Thank you very much. Thank you--please be seated. (Continued applause.) Thank you. Please be seated.
Thank you very much, Mr. Vice President for your remarks and your leadership. Thank you, Secretary Cohen for the superb job you have done here at the Pentagon and--on this most recent very difficult problem. Thank you, General Shelton, for being the right person at the right time. Thank you, General Ralston and the members of the joint chiefs--General Zinni, Secretary Albright, Secretary Slater, DCI Tenet, Mr. Bowles, Mr. Berger, Senator Robb--thank you for being here, and Congressman Skelton, thank you very much. And for your years of service to America and your passionate patriotism, both of you. And to the members of our armed forces and others who work here to protect our national security.
I have just received a very fine briefing from our military leadership on the
status of our forces in the Persian Gulf. Before I left the Pentagon, I wanted to talk to you and all those whom you represent--the men and women of our military.
You, your friends and your colleagues are on the front lines of this crisis in Iraq. I want you and I want the American people to hear directly from me what is at stake for America in the Persian Gulf; what we are doing to protect the peace, the security, the freedom we cherish; why we have taken the position we have taken.
I was thinking, as I sat up here on the platform, of the slogan that the first lady gave me for her project on the millennium, which was remembering the past and imagining the future. Now, for that project, that means preserving the Star Spangled Banner and the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and it means making an unprecedented commitment to medical research and to get the best of the new technology. But that's not a bad slogan for us when we deal with more sober, more difficult, more dangerous matters.
Those who have questioned the United States in this moment, I would argue are living only in the moment; they have neither remembered the past nor imagined the future. So first, let's just take a step back and consider why meeting the threat posed by Saddam Hussein is important to our security in the new era we are entering.
This is a time of tremendous promise for America. The superpower confrontation has ended; on every continent, democracy is securing for more and more people the basic freedoms we Americans have come to take for granted. Bit by bit, the information age is chipping away at the barriers--economic, political and social--that once kept people locked in and freedom and prosperity locked out.
But for all our promise, all our opportunity, people in this room know very well that this is not a time free from peril, especially as a result of reckless acts of outlaw nations and an unholy axis of terrorists, drug traffickers and organized international criminals. We have to defend our future from these predators of the 21st century.
The feed on the free flow of information and technology. They actually take advantage of the freer movement of people, information and ideas. And they will be all the more lethal if we allow them to build arsenals of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them. We simply cannot allow that to happen.
There is no more clear example of this threat than Saddam Hussein's Iraq. His regime threatens the safety of his people, the stability of his region and the security of all the rest of us. I want the American people to understand, first, the past: How did this crisis come about? And I want then to understand what we must do to protect the national interest, and indeed the interest of all freedom- loving people in the world.
Remember, as a condition of the cease-fire after the Gulf War, the United Nations demanded--not the United States--the United Nations demanded and Saddam Hussein agreed, to declare within 15 days--this is way back in 1991--within 15 days, his nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them--to make a total declaration. That's what he promised to do. The United
Nations set up a special commission of highly trained international experts called UNSCOM to make sure that Iraq made good on that commitment.
We had every good reason to insist that Iraq disarm. Saddam had built up a terrible arsenal, and he had used it. Not once, but many times in a decade-long war with Iran, he used chemical weapons against combatants, against civilians, against a foreign adversary and even against his own people. And during the Gulf War, Saddam launched Scuds against Saudi Arabia, Israel and Bahrain.
Now, instead of playing by the very rules he agreed to at the end of the Gulf War, Saddam has spent the better part of the past decade trying to cheat on this solemn commitment.
Consider just some of the facts:
Iraq repeatedly made false declarations about the weapons that it had left in its possession after the Gulf War. When UNSCOM would then uncover evidence that gave lie to those declarations, Iraq would simply amend the reports. For example, Iraq revised its nuclear declarations four times within just 14 months, and it has submitted six different biological warfare declarations, each of which has been rejected by UNSCOM.
In 1995 Hussein Kamel, Saddam's son-in-law and the chief organizer of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program, defected to Jordan. He revealed that Iraq was continuing to conceal weapons and missiles and the capacity to build many more. Then and only then did Iraq admit to developing numbers of weapons in significant quantities--and weapons stocks. Previously it had vehemently denied the very thing it just simply admitted once Saddam's son-in-law defected to Jordan and told the truth.
Now listen to this: What did it admit? It admitted, among other things, an offensive biological warfare capability, notably, 5,000 gallons of botulinum, which causes botulism; 2,000 gallons of anthrax; 25 biological-filled Scud warheads; and 157 aerial bombs. And I might say UNSCOM inspectors believe that Iraq has actually greatly understated its production.
As if we needed further confirmation, you all know what happened to his son-in-law when he made the untimely decision to go back to Iraq. Next, throughout this entire process, Iraqi agents have undermined and undercut UNSCOM. They've harassed the inspectors, lied to them, disabled monitoring cameras, literally spirited evidence out of the back doors of suspect facilities as inspectors walked through the front door, and our people were there observing it and had the pictures to prove it.
Despite Iraq's deceptions, UNSCOM has nevertheless done a remarkable job. Its inspectors, the eyes and ears of the civilized world, have uncovered and destroyed more weapons of mass destruction capacity than was destroyed during the Gulf War.
This includes nearly 40,000 chemical weapons, more than 100,000 gallons of chemical weapons agents, 48 operational missiles, 30 warheads specifically fitted for chemical and biological weapons, and a massive biological weapons facility at Al Hakim equipped to produce anthrax and other deadly agents. Over the past few months, as they have come closer and closer to rooting out Iraq's remaining nuclear capacity, Saddam has undertaken yet another gambit to thwart their ambition by imposing debilitating conditions on the inspectors and declaring key sites which have still not been inspected off limits, including, I might add, one palace in Baghdad more than 2,600 acres large. By comparison, when you hear all this business about "Presidential sites reflect our sovereignty; why do you want to come into a residence?" the White House complex is 18 acres, so you'll have some feel for this. One of these presidential sites is about the size of Washington, DC. That's about--how many acres did you tell me it was? Forty thousand acres. We're not talking about a few rooms here with delicate personal matters involved.
It is obvious that there is an attempt here, based on the whole history of this operation since 1991, to protect whatever remains of his capacity to produce weapons of mass destruction, the missiles to deliver them, and the feed stocks necessary to produce them. The UNSCOM inspectors believe that Iraq still has stockpiles of chemical and biological munitions, a small force of Scud-type missiles, and the capacity to restart quickly its production program and build many, many, more weapons.
Now, against that background, let us remember the past here. It is against that background that we have repeatedly and unambiguously made clear our preference for a diplomatic solution. The inspection system works. The inspection system has worked in the face of lies, stonewalling, obstacle after obstacle after obstacle. The people who have done that work deserve the thanks of civilized people throughout the world. It has worked. That is all we want. And if we can find a diplomatic way to do what has to be done, to do what he promised to do at the end of the Gulf War, to do what should have been within 15 days, within 15 days of agreement at the end of the Gulf War, if we can find a diplomatic way to do that, that is by far our preference. But to be a genuine solution, and not simply one that glosses over the remaining problem, a diplomatic solution must include or meet a clear, immutable, reasonable, simple standard: Iraq must agree--and soon--to free, full, unfettered access to these sites anywhere in the country.
There can be no dilution or diminishment of the integrity of the inspection system that UNSCOM has put in place.
Now, those terms are nothing more or less than the essence of what he agreed to at the end of the Gulf War. The Security Council, many times since, has reiterated this standard. If he accepts them, force will not be necessary. If he refuses or continues to evade his obligations through more tactics of delay and deception, he and he alone will be to blame for the consequences. I ask all of you to remember the record here; what he promised to do within 15 days of the end of the Gulf War, what he repeatedly refused to do, what we found out in '95, what the inspectors have done against all odds.
We have no business agreeing to any resolution of this that does not include free unfettered access to the remaining sites by people who have integrity and proven competence in the inspection business. That should be our standard. That's what UNSCOM has done, and that's why I have been fighting for it so hard. And that's why the United States should insist upon it. Now, let's imagine the future. What if he fails to comply and we fail to act, or we take some ambiguous third route, which gives him yet more opportunities to develop this program of weapons of mass destruction and continue to press for the release of the sanctions and continue to ignore the solemn commitments that he made?
Well, he will conclude that the international community has lost its will. He will then conclude that he can go right on and do more to rebuild an arsenal of devastating destruction. And some day, some way, I guarantee you he'll use the arsenal. And I think every one of you who has really worked on this for any length of time, believes that, too.
Now, we have spent several weeks building up our forces in the Gulf and building a coalition of like-minded nations. Our force posture would not be possible without the support of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, the GCC states and Turkey. Other friends and allies have agreed to provide forces, bases or logistical support, including the United Kingdom, Germany, Spain and Portugal, Denmark and the Netherlands, Hungary and Poland and the Czech Republic, Argentina, Iceland, Australia and New Zealand, and our friends and neighbors in Canada.
That list is growing, not because anyone wants military action, but because there are people in this world who believe the United Nations resolutions should mean something, because they understand what UNSCOM has achieved, because they remember the past and because they can imagine what the future will be, depending on what we do now.
If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear: We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program. We want to seriously reduce his capacity to threaten his neighbors. I am quite confident, from the briefing I have just received from our military leaders, that we can achieve the objective and secure our vital strategic interests.
Let me be clear. A military operation cannot destroy all the weapons of mass destruction capacity, but it can, and will, leave him significantly worse off than he is now in terms of the ability to threaten the world with these weapons or to attack his neighbors. And he will know that the international community continues to have the will to act if and when he threatens again. Following any strike, we will carefully monitor Iraq's activities with all the means at our disposal. If he seeks to rebuild his weapons of mass destruction, we will be prepared to strike him again. The economic sanctions will remain in place until Saddam complies fully with all U.N. resolutions. Consider this: Already these sanctions have denied him $110 billion. Imagine how much stronger his armed forces would be today, how many more weapons of mass destruction operations he would have hidden around the country if he had been able to spend even a small fraction of that amount for a military rebuilding.
We will continue to enforce the no-fly zone from the southern suburbs of Baghdad to the Kuwait border and in northern Iraq, making it more difficult for Iraq to walk over Kuwait again or threaten the Kurds in the North. Now, let me say to all of you here, as all of you know, the weightiest decision any president ever has to make is to send our troops into harm's way. And force can never be the first answer. But sometimes it's the only answer. You are the best prepared, best equipped, best trained fighting force in the world, and should it prove necessary for me to exercise the option of force, your commanders will do everything they can to protect the safety of all the men and women under their command. No military action, however, is risk free. I know that the people we may call upon in uniform are ready. The American people have to be ready as well.
Dealing with Saddam Hussein requires constant vigilance. We have seen that constant vigilance pays off, but it requires constant vigilance. Since the Gulf War, we have pushed back every time Saddam has posed a threat. When Baghdad plotted to assassinate former President Bush, we struck hard at Iraq's intelligence headquarters. When Saddam threatened another invasion by amassing his troops in Kuwait, along the Kuwaiti border in 1994, we immediately deployed our troops, our ships, our planes; and Saddam backed down.
When Saddam forcefully occupied Erbil in northern Iraq, we broadened our control over Iraq's skies by extending the no-fly zone. But there is no better example--again, I say, than the U.N. weapons inspection system itself. Yes, he has tried to thwart it, in every conceivable way. But the discipline, determination, year-in, year-out effort of these weapons inspectors is doing the job, and we seek to finish the job.
Let there be no doubt, we are prepared to act. But Saddam Hussein could end this crisis tomorrow, simply by letting the weapons inspectors complete their mission. He made a solemn commitment to the international community to do that and to give up his weapons of mass destruction a long time ago, now. One way or the other, we are determined to see that he makes good on his own promise. Saddam Hussein's Iraq reminds us of what we learned in the 20th century and warns us of what we must know about the 21st.
In this century, we learned through harsh experience that the only answer to aggression and illegal behavior is firmness, determination, and, when necessary, action. In the next century, the community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now--a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists, drug traffickers, or organized criminals who travel the world among us unnoticed.
If we fail to respond today, Saddam, and all those who would follow in his footsteps, will be emboldened tomorrow by the knowledge that they can act with impunity, even in the face of a clear message from the United Nations Security Council, and clear evidence of a weapons of mass destruction program.
But if we act as one, we can safeguard our interests and send a clear message to every would-be tyrant and terrorist that the international community does have the wisdom and the will and the way to protect peace and security in a new era. That is the future I ask you all to imagine. That is the future I ask our allies to imagine. If we look at the past and imagine that future, we will act as one together. And we still have, God willing, a chance to find a diplomatic resolution of this, and if not, God willing, the chance to do the right thing for our children and grandchildren.
Thank you very much. (Applause.)
Bill Clinton, at the Pentagon, February 17, 1998
Have a nice day Wharfy...
---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <-
Hey, it also wouldn’t look good coming out of a motel with your wife’s best friend saying you were just planning a surprise birthday party for her husband...- Arturo November '03
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Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 6091
Registered: 4-1998
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 7:45 am: | |
And the UN's containment policy appears to have worked well.
|
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2035
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 7:48 am: | |
Sbenois,
Clinton's speech makes for fine reading, but the fact remains that Bush and not Clinton socked the tar baby and now we are stuck. It may turn out OK or it may not. |
Kenney
Citizen
Username: Kenney
Post Number: 294
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 7:48 am: | |
Some of us never cared about wether Saddam had WMD's or not.
--Was Saddam trying to acquire wmds and would he use them; evidence suggest he was and would. Controlling him after he attained them would have been very difficult.
--Would Pinpointed aggressive regime change in the middle east lead to a wake up for other tyrants to abandon their quest for weapons, allow oil revenues to flow down to the masses, and create a system that will lift the standard of living for its citizen. This will set the table for a better education system and allow the people of the middle east to realize the incredibly insane nature of the Islamic extremist religion.
They hate us for supporting tyrants, they hate us now for removing tyrants....in time, they will come to see all the good that has been done.
The only limit to our realization of tomorrow will be our doubts of today..FDR..
Liberty, when it begins to take root, is a plant of rapid growth...G.W.
Everyone wants a voice in human freedom. There's a fire burning inside of all us...L.W.
Dave Ross is the coolest!!(being banned sucks) |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4220
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 7:56 am: | |
There is an article in the NY Times today indicating the administration has withdrawn most of the WMD search team, quietly I might add. |
Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 6092
Registered: 4-1998
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 8:04 am: | |
Hans Blix' next mission is to search the Whitehouse for intelligence. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 647
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 8:55 am: | |
The more I think about it, we could have kicked Hitler out of the countries he occupied and contained him. So what if he slaughtered a bunch of his own people.....there's no vital US interest there. You'd think we'd have learned that with Slobodan.
Why, though, did Clinton rue the fact he did nothing about Rwanda? There was no threat to the US there -- imminent or long term. What was he thinking? I think he successfully contained that massacre, as did the UN! |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2037
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 9:15 am: | |
Cjc,
Countries do not go to war for humanitarian reasons unless the expected cost is very low. In the case of Rwanda, for low cost/risk, we could possibly have prevented the slaughter. In the Balkans, there were geopolitical reasons for stopping Milosevic in addition to the humanitarian issues.
Your comment about containing Hitler is lacking in logic. Containment of Hitler failed in March, 1938 with the sellout of the Czechs. After that, the only course was war to the death. For whatever reason - Cheney used to know them - we did not go the route of unconditional surrender with Iraq in 1991. |
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 2660
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 10:06 am: | |
From the Washington Post article referenced at the start of this thread:
quote:Late last month, fresh evidence emerged on a very old question about Iraq's illegal arms: Did the Baghdad government, as it said, rid itself of all the biological arms it produced before 1991? The answer matters, because the Bush administration's most concrete prewar assertions about Iraqi germ weapons referred to stocks allegedly hidden from that old arsenal.
The new evidence appears to be a contemporary record, from inside the Iraqi government, of a pivotal moment in Baghdad's long struggle to shield arms programs from outside scrutiny. The document, written just after the defection of Saddam Hussein's son-in-law on Aug. 8, 1995, anticipates the collapse of cover stories for weapons that had yet to be disclosed. Read alongside subsequent discoveries made by U.N. inspectors, the document supports Iraq's claim that it destroyed all production stocks of lethal pathogens before inspectors knew they existed.
The defection of Hussein Kamel was a turning point in the U.N.-imposed disarmament of Iraq in the 1990s. Kamel, who had married one of Saddam Hussein's daughters, Raghad, and controlled Baghdad's Military Industrial Commission, told his Western debriefers about major programs in biological and nuclear weaponry that had gone undetected or unconfirmed. Iraq was forced to acknowledge what he exposed, but neither inspectors nor U.S. officials were sure Kamel had told all there was to tell.
A handwritten Iraqi damage report, composed five days after the defection, now suggests that Kamel left little or nothing out.
I think Kamel was one of the sons-in-law who was killed after he returned to Iraq. Look, nobody contests the fact that Hussein was evil. The issue being discussed is whether the threat he posed, required the amount of destruction, the fracturing of international relations, and the enormous cost in lives, which has taken place so far. |
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 2663
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 10:37 am: | |
Sorry to follow my own post, but apparently the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace just released its own report on the WMD issue. As stated in the summary to the report:
quote:SUMMARY OF KEY FINDINGS
Iraq WMD Was Not An Immediate Threat
· Iraq's nuclear program had been suspended for many years; Iraq focused on preserving a latent, dual-use chemical and probably biological weapons capability, not weapons production.
· Iraqi nerve agents had lost most of their lethality as early as 1991.
· Operations Desert Storm and Desert Fox, and UN inspections and sanctions effectively destroyed Iraq's large-scale chemical weapon production capabilities.
Inspections Were Working
· Post-war searches suggest the UN inspections were on track to find what was there.
· International constraints, sanctions, procurement, investigations, and the export/import control mechanism appear to have been considerably more effective than was thought.
Intelligence Failed and Was Misrepresented
· Intelligence community overestimated the chemical and biological weapons in Iraq.
· Intelligence community appears to have been unduly influenced by policymakers' views.
· Officials misrepresented threat from Iraq's WMD and ballistic missiles programs over and above intelligence findings.
Terrorist Connection Missing
· No solid evidence of cooperative relationship between Saddam's government and Al Qaeda.
· No evidence that Iraq would have transferred WMD to terrorists-and much evidence to counter it.
· No evidence to suggest that deterrence was no longer operable.
Post-War WMD Search Ignored Key Resources
· Past relationships with Iraqi scientists and officials, and credibility of UNMOVIC experts represent a vital resource that has been ignored when it should be being fully exploited.
· Data from the seven years of UNSCOM/IAEA inspections are absolutely essential. Direct involvement of those who compiled the more-than-30-million- page record is needed.
War Was Not the Best-Or Only-Option
· There were at least two options preferable to a war undertaken without international support: allowing the UNMOVIC/IAEA inspections to continue until obstructed or completed, or imposing a tougher program of "coercive inspections."
The full report may be read or downloaded at this link. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 649
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 11:01 am: | |
tjohn---low cost humanitarian wars? Somalia cost us one team of Army Rangers and we bailed. Why was everyone for that exercise that went from feeding a starving nation to nation-building?
What were the geopolitical concerns in a civil war that wasn't going outside it's borders in Yugoslavia? And why did we support going in there when Europe could have handled it themselves? Couldn't we "contain" Slobodan? As Chris Matthews asked republicans in his one-sided debate on supporting Kosovo -- would we have gone into Germany if Hitler was just killing a bunch of Jews?
Dave Ross argues containment was working with Saddam after we tossed him out of Kuwait PER THE UN MANDATE which would allow no other course of action like unconditional surrender. Could we not have tossed Hitler out of Poland and Czechoslovokia and contained him? of course I don''t believe that was right, but the consistency of those railing against the Iraq war is the point. There is none.
Nor are you consistent with backing the Kosovo effort despite the opposition of the vaunted UN -- speaking of fractured international relations. And Kosovo was for ethnic cleansing of up to 100K per the INTELLIGENCEN WE HAD...but there have only been 2500 bodies found. And I don't believe Clinton lied or distorted the intelligence, but those are the facts.
And look -- I supported all the actions taken in those conflicts -- as well as Iraq. I can quibble with how Kosovo eventuated, but I would be dishonest to hoist that up as some huge reason to vote or not vote for someone.
Enormous cost in lives? 332 casualties due to hostile actions since the Iraq war started. If you're talking about Iraqi civilians, we haven't killed one iota of them compared to the 300K -- that's 300K -- that Saddam did.
How many deaths in Rwanda? They're thinking 500K maybe. If it turns out like Kosovo, it may well be closer to the 300K in Iraq. So I guess Iraq was worthwhile then? |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2038
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 11:55 am: | |
CJC,
Iraq is costing us $4B/month plus killed and injured. There is no end in sight. Realistically, we can't bail on Iraq.
If, in your mind, there is some equivalence between this and the Balkans or Somalia, then our brains are wired differently. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4228
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 12:43 pm: | |
At least nine dead and thrity four wounded today in Iraq because of a helicopter crash and the shelling of a barracks area. The butcher's bill mounts almost daily.
I support our incursion into Iraq, but the price both in money and in lives lost or destroyed is getting pretty high.
|
Kenney
Citizen
Username: Kenney
Post Number: 303
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 12:58 pm: | |
While I think our efforts in the middle east and Iraq have already prevented many future terror attacks, even if it's just one 9-11 we are still ahead of the curve--both in cost and lives.....
The only limit to our realization of tomorrow will be our doubts of today..FDR..
Liberty, when it begins to take root, is a plant of rapid growth...G.W.
Everyone wants a voice in human freedom. There's a fire burning inside of all us...L.W.
Dave Ross is the coolest!!(being banned sucks) |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 652
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 1:13 pm: | |
Pretty high compared to what past conflict?!?! Lives lost? Money as a percentage of GDP?? Get real. |
JJC
Citizen
Username: Mercury
Post Number: 157
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 1:20 pm: | |
Compared to the other ways we could have handled Iraq. Remember, Iraq has nothing to do with the war on terror. This is a somewhat inconvenient fact, but a fact just the same. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 653
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 1:44 pm: | |
Ignore the terrorists behind the curtain....
And yes, it would have been cheaper to leave him there and do nothing....as we had done. Ignore the children in prison and the mass graves....
Khaddafy just happened to come to table on WMD dismantling. Iran just happened to agree to inspections of nuclear facilities. It had nothing to do with US resolve and presence in Iraq. Or Afghanistan.
Iraq most certainly does have something to do with the war on terror, terrorists and those thinking of practising it. |
JJC
Citizen
Username: Mercury
Post Number: 158
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 1:50 pm: | |
I didn't say ignore the problem, I said handle it in a different way.
As for Kaddafi - what kind of a weapons program does he really have? It is very close to the sketches that started this thread. It wasn't much to give up. His actions have more to do with sanctions, oil and money.
|
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4231
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 1:53 pm: | |
Cjc, I agree that our invasion of Iraq scarred the living shinola out of several countries and that is why I supported the war in the first place. There is nothing like having a permanent, unsinkable aircraft carrier in the middle of indian country.
However, the reasons you mention aren't the reasons given for the invasion by the Administration. Bush and Company have pulled out the inspectors and, I think even you have to admit, have a large helping of egg on their faces. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 654
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 2:07 pm: | |
Yes they were given, bobk. You just choose to ignore them or declare them invalid because they weren't the #1 reason Bush gave. Besides, if anyone backed other conflicts with similar conditions sans WMD, they are hypocritical for not backing up this one just because Bush didn't list THEIR primary reason as #1. The fact that their 'reason' existed and they would do nothing puts them in the "standing by while they die" school of Rwandan foreign policy.
Yes, intelligence may have failed Bush (and the Bill Clinton of 1998) in retrospect, but disarming is something that is easily done as in South Africa (recall, they went to Iraq to try to give Saddam advice on how to do it, and Saddam rejected it). That Saddam would not comply completely and his track record of deception regarding WMD gave Bush every reason to go in there on that basis IN ADDITION to the other ones he mentioned. |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1668
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 3:24 pm: | |
There's something unsettling about retroactively figuring out why you started a war.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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Michaela May
Citizen
Username: Mayquene
Post Number: 20
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 3:37 pm: | |
I agree with Tom -- this is an ex post facto explanation now that it seems all those WMD fears were bunk. I will remind you how many of our allies are notorious for human rights violations. Cough, China, Saudia Arabia, Cough. And how long did we sit idle while chaos and violence have ruled in Liberia? And that's recent!
And as for one poster's comments that the U.S. invasion of Iraq may have thwarted terror attacks, what about the adminstration's concession that there was no connection between 9/11 and Iraq? The Middle East is ripe with probable or confirmed governments with ties to al Qaeda and other terror groups. And really I don't imagine we can, or would propose to, overthrow them, however much shinnola would be scared out of our enemies. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4237
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 3:48 pm: | |
As pointed out earlier by, I believe, nohero, Bosnia, etal were low risk undertakings for us as would have been Rawanda if we had gone in.
Iraq is costing a lot of lives, both American, Allied an Iraqi.
The last count I saw for today was ten killed and 34 wounded.
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