| Author |
Message |
    
Don Perkins
Citizen
Username: Cowboy
Post Number: 250
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 10:01 am: |     |
Notehead, do I think evolution is a bunch of bunk also? We are not specifically addressing evolution here. However, isn't it possible that any global warming over the next half-century could result in the evolution of more than one million species? Isn't it also possible that "global warming" is just a continuation of evolution itself?
There is not one single piece of empirical evidence out there that anything that mankind is doing on the face of this globe is leading to any warming of the Earth's atmosphere. If you know of one, you too can win the Nobel Prize.
I have witnessed first hand the vast amounts of money being wasted over the years that I've been actively involved in environmental work. The numerous taxpayer-funded "studies" alone are staggering and not just from this country.
I tried to put it into terms that you could understand "Sun gets hotter, Earth gets hotter," And that Notehead has been happening since the dinosaurs. You might even say it is evolution at work.
So answer me this, can you deny the existence of anti-capitalist liberals in the science community? |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 1745
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 10:29 am: | |
quote:isn't it possible that any global warming over the next half-century could result in the evolution of more than one million species?
A million species in 50 years? No.
quote:Isn't it also possible that "global warming" is just a continuation of evolution itself?
No, evolution is a biological process.
quote:"Sun gets hotter, Earth gets hotter," And that Notehead has been happening since the dinosaurs.
Not as simple as all that. NASA shows that output was even higher during the bitterly cold late '70s. Anyway, post-dinosaur, how would you explain the ice age?
quote:can you deny the existence of anti-capitalist liberals in the science community?
Of course not, but if they let their ideology get in the way of their science, they don't stay in the community very long. Maybe they go work at think tanks.
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Don Perkins
Citizen
Username: Cowboy
Post Number: 253
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 11:40 am: | |
tom, when the dinosaurs all disappeared, thought perhaps due to a meteor, was that evolution? A biological process? How many species disappeared? Did that event result in species disappearing in less than 50 years? How come some species survived and went on to thrive following that? Is that evolution?
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tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 1746
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 12:10 pm: | |
Evolution isn't the extinction of some species, it's the change of existing species, and the development of new ones. Mass extinction isn't evolution, though it can certainly be a prod to evolution, in that it allows the surviving species to occupy new niches. The disappearance of the larger animals 65MM years ago ALLOWED the evolution of small mammals etc., but it in and of itself wasn't "evolution."
from Dictionary.com: Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species. |
notehead
Citizen
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 828
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 1:46 pm: | |
Don,
I'm not trying to discuss evolution itself -- which is good, because you don't seem to understand what it is -- but to make the point that the right wing will fatuously dismiss an overwhelming amount of rigorous, peer-reviewed research because they simply don't like the results.
But your suggestion that there is no "empirical" evidence to support the conclusions that mankind's activities are resulting in global warming makes the subject of evolution illustrative for another reason. Evolution does not happen in a manner that an individual can observe first-hand in real time. But the staggering amount of evidence makes it absolutely clear that evolution is a bona fide process that is the ultimate shaper of life on this planet. I mean, to say you don't believe in human-induced global warming is comparable to saying that you don't believe in evolution, or, say, that the earth is round. (The Prez has publicly stated that "the jury is still out" on evolution, btw.)
"I have witnessed first hand the vast amounts of money being wasted over the years that I've been actively involved in environmental work."
Um... that looks like a sentence... what does it mean? |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 660
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 1:56 pm: | |
Kyoto at it's best would lower the global temperature some 2 10ths of one degree. AT BEST.
The vanity of the left that thinks the activities of mankind -- and mankind alone -- can be altered to offset a natural cycle of temperature fluctuation is silly on it's face. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 1749
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 2:27 pm: | |
of course it's silly, and that is not what the left believes.
Hey, don't think that notehead and me are some kind of wild-eyed anti-corporate types. We drive cars, we use lots of electricity, we work as a matter of fact for corporations. We believe that human activity can continue as it does now with LESS impact on the environment. And obviously it can. But it's not going to happen unless it's mandated by law. If there are sixteen corporations competing against each other for investor share, why would one of them voluntarily put themselves at a short-term disadvantage? And if one of them did, you've still got the other fifteen polluting as before.
Do you believe in game theory? |
notehead
Citizen
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 829
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 3:11 pm: | |
Cjc - the notion that most of the "stars" you see in the night sky are actually galaxies containing billions of stars of their own may also seem silly on it's face, but it is quite true, just as it is true that mankind's activities are slowly causing temperatures to rise around the world, with concomitant exacerbations in weather patterns, spreadings of diseases beyond their historical ranges, and species loss.
I know you and I have thrown this around before... but my understanding is that all known naturally occurring temperature cyclings are incorporated into current studies that seek to pinpoint the causes of global warming.
I think it's kind of telling that the right's original position on this issue was to deny that global warming was even occurring. Then they tried to deny that it would be a bad thing. Then they said that mankind's contribution to the problem was negligible. Their current stance seems to be that we can't do anything about it anyway, so why change anything?
The vanity of the right thinks that sheer obstinacy can outweigh a vast (and growing) accumulation of data and consensus in the scientific community. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 665
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 3:33 pm: | |
No one denied the world was getting warmer (or colder in the 70s). We've always disagreed on the primary culprit or the culprit that could do anything about it if we changed behavior. |
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 2681
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 3:33 pm: | |
At least the Administration can count on its friends, the Brits, right?
Maybe not ...
quote:Tony Blair's chief scientist has launched a withering attack on President George Bush for failing to tackle climate change, which he says is more serious than terrorism.
Sir David King, the Government's chief scientific adviser, says in an article today in the journal Science that America, the world's greatest polluter, must take the threat of global warming more seriously.
"In my view, climate change is the most severe problem that we are facing today, more serious even than the threat of terrorism," Sir David says.
Complete article is at this link. |
notehead
Citizen
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 835
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 4:14 pm: | |
Colder in the 70's? There was a teeny, tiny reduction in temperatures in the 70's, but that is quite insignificant compared to the overall trend since the Industrial Revolution, as seen in this graph from NASA & The Goddard Institute for Space Science:
 |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 666
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 4:21 pm: | |
Then that Leonard Nimoy special got me all worked up for nothing? Damn! |
notehead
Citizen
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 836
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 4:39 pm: | |
That's nuthin'... he also suggested in an episode of In Search Of that sharks might be immortal.  |
wharfrat
Citizen
Username: Wharfrat
Post Number: 912
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 5:15 pm: | |
Evidence that global warming is real and human activity is the cause-
1-Atmospheric concentration of CO2 from fossil fuel use is up 30% since the beginning of the industrial revolution. This is the highest concentration in 450,000 years, preceding the last ice age-the Peistocene Era.
2-Greenhouse gas methane has increased 145% in the same period.
3-Nitrous oxide up 15% (bring back dorm life ;-)
4-As notehead shows with his graph, the 1990’s are the warmest in recorded history.
Consequently, the arctic ice pack has thinned 40% in last 20 years, the Alps have lost 1/2 glacial mass since 19th century, the snow peak on Mt. Kilamanjaro is receding and will be gone in 15 yrs. In addition, shrubs are growing on Arctic tundra, mosquitos which thrive in tropic climates are carrying diseases to temperate climate zones, both north and south of the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn.
The damage this is causing to the eco-system will eventually impact our way of life. According to the International Panel on Climate Control, computer models are predicting a rise in avg. temps up to 6 degrees C, shifting climate zones towards each of the poles, disrupting agriculture, watersheds, snowpack.
Ultimately, the danger from global warming is not to the Earth itself, it's the dominant species on the planet, us.
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notehead
Citizen
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 838
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 6:28 pm: | |
And for those of you who insist on ignoring the threat posed by global warming, it isn't even the biggest environmental problem most of the world is facing. The United Nations predicts that by 2026, the world demand for fresh water will outstrip the world's supply by 56 percent. A lot of the U.S. is already being affected by this problem. |
notehead
Citizen
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 849
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 4:52 pm: | |
In related news... this from Grist Magazine and Reuters:
Thanks to global warming, summer heat waves like the one that killed close to 20,000 people in Europe in 2003 could recur up to once every two years by the end of the century. So claims a study conducted by a group of scientists from Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich and published in the latest online issue of Nature. Based on computer models of climatological change, the study predicts not a steady rise but rather increased variability and unpredictability in temperatures (which will make it difficult for farmers to compensate simply by switching to higher-temperature crops). "By the end of the century we will still see some normal summers, looking from today's perspective, but the mean would be more like 2003 and the maximum would be even warmer," said Cristoph Schar, one of the study authors. Hot summers like Europe's last one, which averaged 8 degrees Fahrenheit higher than normal for three full months, are particularly hard on the elderly and cause environmental calamities ranging from forest fires to water shortages.
straight to the source: Reuters, Patricia Reaney, 11 Jan 2004 |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1693
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 5:47 pm: | |
Notehead, I've often thought that eventually, we will be fighting wars over water, not oil. That could even happen between Israel and Jordan!
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2064
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 7:04 pm: | |
What is the concern here? Heat waves in Europe. Water wars in the Middle East. No mention of anything affecting America. I don't see a problem. |
Don Perkins
Citizen
Username: Cowboy
Post Number: 262
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 11:10 am: | |
Al Gore is speaking about Global Warming again...
And he picked the coldest day of the year in New York City to do it. The purpose of course for Al Gore's speech in NYC today is to slam Bush for his "inaction" on global warming. Gore isn't going to be deterred by the fact that the temperature in New York is supposed to be the coldest in ten years .. 1 degree above zero. In fact, he's reportedly going to make the case that this cold weather is actually caused by global warming which, of course, is caused by George Bush.
I'm not going to go through the evidence again here just suffice it to say that there is absolutely no scientific evidence out there which shows that any measurable increase in the temperature of the earth's atmosphere is being caused by the actions of man. There is evidence, however, strong scientific evidence, that sunspot and other activity has actually been making the surface of the son hotter for quite some time.
Evidently liberals and anti-capitalist eco-radicals aren't able to make the rational connection between a hotter sun and a hotter earth.
Why blame it on the sun when you have such a good opportunity to slam capitalism and slow down America's industrial machine?
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Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1758
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 12:43 pm: | |
cowboy, you may be right, and you may be wrong. I think the greatest danger is arrogance, on anyone's part.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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notehead
Citizen
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 868
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 1:51 pm: | |
"I'm not going to go through the evidence again here just suffice it to say that there is absolutely no scientific evidence out there which shows that any measurable increase in the temperature of the earth's atmosphere is being caused by the actions of man."
There is ample evidence to support the theory that mankind's actions are contributing to global warming if you'd make the slightest effort to look.
Why, look! Here's some now... and, gee, it's from the U.S. Government!
"According to the National Academy of Sciences, the Earth's surface temperature has risen by about 1 degree Fahrenheit in the past century, with accelerated warming during the past two decades. There is new and stronger evidence that most of the warming over the last 50 years is attributable to human activities."
http://yosemite.epa.gov/oar/globalwarming.nsf/content/climate.html
So Don, since you have nothing intelligent or factual to say on this issue, why don't you SHUT UP? |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1759
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 1:54 pm: | |
I'm not going to go through the evidence ... just suffice it to say that ...
Hmm, now that I reread that, it does sound like the epitome of arrogance. In effect, forget the facts, just believe me. You know I'm right, because I say so.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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moose
Citizen
Username: Moose
Post Number: 152
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 1:54 pm: | |
You tell 'em, Notehead! |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 456
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 2:20 pm: | |
anyone who has a job that requires determining cause and effect, or making projections realizes that you draw conclusions based on the most likely causes.
the reason scientists believe human activity is a major cause of global warming is when you look at the timeline, the changes in the earth's temperature coincide with human population growth, and the arrival of the industrial age. the warming is occurring at an accelerated rate that scientists have not observed in studies of previous warming trends. there may be other causes, but the most probable, is human activity. that is because it is the only variable that seems to have changed in conjunction with the warming trend. this warming trend appears to be unprecedented in the speed with which it's taking place. therefore, it's actually less probable that it's normal temperature variation (although such an explanation is of course possible).
but remember, when you're looking for explanations of causation you choose the most probable, not the possible (the cliche is "when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras").
and the danger in an accelerated warming trend is that species (including man) won't have time to adapt. trends that had formerly taken place over hundreds of years are taking place over decades. as other astute posters have stated, the earth will of course survive, it always has. the question is - what species of life will not?
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marken
Citizen
Username: Marken
Post Number: 91
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 2:30 pm: | |
Arrogant opinions or or not, it seems that the Bush administration has the right approach in dealing with "so called" global warming : get to the moon and to Mars.
After all, it's much cooler there anyway. So it will take us eons to warm up the Martian atmospehere to a level sufficient to support life (esp. grass for golf courses). This will probably happen about the time Imperial Wizard Bush LXVII begins her reign over the United Solar System of America. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 714
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 2:43 pm: | |
In the name of fair and balanced on global warming wiping out species on the planet:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/commentary/20040114-083322-9283r.htm
And as for probable and likely causes, I prefer to focus on factors that have the capability of creating massive climate change. And to me, the activities of mankind don't fit the bill. I'm not denying man's activities don't add to the warming, but I think it's insignificant compared to things like the Sun, volcanoes, etc. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 1784
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 2:47 pm: | |
One doesn't often see "fair and balanced" and "Washington Times" in the same paragraph, but oh well. |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 458
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 3:19 pm: | |
well cjc,
I'll go with the opinion of the National Academy of Science over your "but I think it's insignificant."
I hope you aren't insulted.
(unless of course, you have scientific credentials of your own you'd like to share) |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 717
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 3:30 pm: | |
You pick your experts, I'll pick mine.
Beware of Alar. Just ask Meryl Streep. |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 459
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 3:34 pm: | |
ok,
I'm still sticking with the National Academy of Sciences over your Cato Institute expert. |
mellie
Citizen
Username: Mellie
Post Number: 373
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 6:56 pm: | |
Don Perkins asserts that not one thing that mankind does is leading to the warming of earth's atmosphere.
Er, Don, if you live you heat the air around you with your body heat. There you go - you are a man and your body temp heats the air - which last time I looked is part of earth's atmosphere. So empirically by your very existence you disprove your own statements.
I heard Al Gore say the world was round, but you go right ahead believing it is flat. Stay away from the edge though. |
Don Perkins
Citizen
Username: Cowboy
Post Number: 269
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 11:01 am: | |
Better yet, and more fun, why not take this quiz:
You are presented with 12 excerpts. These excerpts came from one of two sources, Al Gore's "Earth in the Balance" or from the Unabomber Manifesto. Take the test and see how you do.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/ken_crossman/Gore.htm
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mellie
Citizen
Username: Mellie
Post Number: 375
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 3:35 pm: | |
so what ... the messsage is invalid because you don't like the messenger ?
juvenile |
Michaela May
Citizen
Username: Mayquene
Post Number: 36
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 3:39 pm: | |
The Washington Times is considered a joke here in D.C. |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 465
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 4:02 pm: | |
it's a joke everywhere. |
Kenney
Citizen
Username: Kenney
Post Number: 329
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 4:19 pm: | |
What's a joke everywhere? D.C. or the Times?
The only limit to our realization of tomorrow will be our doubts of today..FDR..
Liberty, when it begins to take root, is a plant of rapid growth...G.W.
Everyone wants a voice in human freedom. There's a fire burning inside of all us...L.W.
Dave Ross is the coolest!!(being banned sucks) |
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 2622
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 4:49 pm: | |
Top three stressful, most depressing cities in the US:
Spokane
Detroit
DC |
Michaela May
Citizen
Username: Mayquene
Post Number: 38
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 4:55 pm: | |
Hah, mem -- where is that from? I have a friend in Detroit that should see that. And what are the most uplifting cities?
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mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 2624
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 5:03 pm: | |
I just saw it as a news blurb the other day...I guess it would be a topic for another thread - I'll start it! |
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