| Author |
Message |
    
Frost French
Citizen
Username: Frost
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 1:04 am: |     |
My washer and dryer are in an unheated addition, off the master bedroom in our ranch. The pipe runs underneath the rough wood floor of the addition, in a crawlspace. The pipe is frozen. Usually there is enough ambeint heat from the master bedroom (we keep the door to the addition open) to keep everything in there at about 55-60 degrees when the house is at 72. I spoke about this with the previous owners of the house before we moved in, and they said that when this happens, they would rent a sort of torch-heater thing, crawl under the addition and aim the heater at the pipe and it would thaw within minutes.
Thing is, I really don't want to try this myself, because I KNOW that whatever disaster is possiblein this situation will become my reality. In other words, the pipe will burst. Is there someone I can call to fix this? Will a regular plumber do it? |
Master Plvmber
Citizen
Username: Master_plvmber
Post Number: 156
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 5:46 am: | |
Yes, any plumber worth his salt will have good pipe thawing equipment.
Good luck.
Master_Plvmber
|
Master Plvmber
Citizen
Username: Master_plvmber
Post Number: 157
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 5:54 am: | |
Yes, any plumber worth his salt will have good pipe-thawing eqipment.
My advice is to have it done before the pipes burst.
On the other hand, the temperauture outside today is supposed to go above freezing. The pipes may thaw themselves.
Master_Plvmber
|
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4264
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 7:42 am: | |
A word of warning on frozen pipes. When the temperature rises and the ice melts there is a distinct possibility that you will find the pipe has burst. I have said this before, but I will say it again:
If you have frozen pipes, turn off the water supply before going to work this morning and avoid a potential disaster!!
Take it from someone who had this happen to them. Luckily we were home for the great thaw and avoided serious damage |
tmb
Citizen
Username: Tmb
Post Number: 4
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 12:03 pm: | |
As a temporary measure, does anyone recommend shutting off the water supply BEFORE it gets really cold outside? For example, we're in for another arctic blast on Wednesday. If I shut off the water to my half bath (where I have experienced a frozen pipe in the past) on Tuesday night and open the taps, will I prevent a burst pipe? I would normally do the slow drip routine, but my waste line has frozen once or twice as well... |
Richard O'Connor
Citizen
Username: Roconn
Post Number: 84
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 12:54 pm: | |
well the waste line suggestion of a little salt/salt water (it freezes at a lower temperature) is a good plan for that ...
If you turn the water off ... be sure to open the faucets so that IF the water still freezes it has someplace to go (out) of the pipes.
Richard (ROC)
--Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic.--
--AIM: ROConn |
tmb
Citizen
Username: Tmb
Post Number: 5
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 12:55 pm: | |
Thanks for the suggestions Richard. |
Master Plvmber
Citizen
Username: Master_plvmber
Post Number: 158
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 12:56 pm: | |
Turning it off alone won't protect the pipes from freezing. You'd have to drain the plumbing system to do that. Turning off the water will prevent a lot of damage if the pipe bursts and then thaws..
Master_Plvmber
|
Richard O'Connor
Citizen
Username: Roconn
Post Number: 86
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 12:59 pm: | |
Water is one of the funny substances that actually takes up the least space in it's liquid form ....
Remember, as it freezes it expands and so you need to leave a place for that expansion to take place ....
My feeling as we get these bitter blasts is to just keep the heat a little higher and to make sure that all the interior doors are open so that the whole house stays above freezing ... probably not a cheap way to handle it...but cheaper than plumbing repairs (even if I do them myself)
Richard (ROC)
--Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic.--
--AIM: ROConn |
Frost French
Citizen
Username: Frost
Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 3:23 pm: | |
Thanks for the suggestions. I tried the washing machine again this morning and it actually worked. However, something a little strange happened: When it initially filled (with cold water), the water came rushing out full force. Then, after it had drained and was refilling for the rinse cycle, it was a tiny little drip. It would've taken 6 hours to fill at the rate it was trickling out (again, cold water only at this point). Finally, it began to flow out again in earnest, after about 45 minutes of dripping. This makes Frost very confused. Any insights? |
Richard O'Connor
Citizen
Username: Roconn
Post Number: 89
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 4:23 pm: | |
Could be that a tube of ice (pipe shaped) reached a bend or the valve and was blocking the flow and when it had melted sufficiently the flow began again in earnest.
Richard (ROC)
--Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic.--
--AIM: ROConn |
tourne
Citizen
Username: Tourne
Post Number: 291
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 1:42 pm: | |
MP,
Good advice on fixing the root of the problem by insulating the wall. Insulation can be blown in without too much fanfare. And that will save a lot of money/energy. Bad advice on the myth that lowering the thermostat does not save energy/money, even with a steam system. Programmable thermostats do save money and since most people are gone at least 8 hours per day, the savings is substantial, especially at the "new" higher rates for gas and electric. However, even if the rates are low and the money is not that important, you are still wasting energy and resources. We import 40% of our oil. Conservation at home alone could save 30%. There's a real value to lowering the thermostat. |
Yonti2323
Citizen
Username: Yonti2323
Post Number: 12
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 2:15 pm: | |
If your pipes are frozen, I would suggest trying all do-it-yourself options before calling a plumber. Our kitchen sink pipes were frozen this weekend, and our usually reasonably-priced plumbers (Gateway) charged us an exorbitant $450 for about 15 minutes of their time to heat up the pipes. ($250 for the cold water pipe, $150 for the hot water pipe, and $50 for the trip charge.) I guess it's my fault for not checking the price before they arrived. But I never expected it to be more than $100 or so. |
usmale78
Citizen
Username: Usmale78
Post Number: 61
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 2:20 pm: | |
I had a water pipe freeze and burst under the house last year at this time. It was a cold water pipe to a powder room on the first floor and the pipe broke over a crawl space. We called Weltmans and they came right away. They rerouted the pipe off of my kitchen sink, thru the walls to the bath room. They did the plumbing and the sheet rock and taping. All I had to do was paint. The plumber said "since Im running the pipes thru the inside of the walls, you will never have to worry again." WELL , they froze last weekend, okay now but I cant wait to see what happens this week. |
ReallyTrying
Citizen
Username: Reallytrying
Post Number: 245
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 1:58 pm: | |
This is all making me very nervous about the pipes, although, it the 8.5 years we've lived here, we've never had a problem. How do you know which pipes are likely to freeze?
Also, the sump pump has me concerned. If the water exiting the pump at the street freezes, does that mean the water in the pump line will freeze and back up into the house? Yesterday, in perhaps a vain attempt at preventing this, I rode my car back and forth over the (then) semi-thawed ice at the curb. Or is it possible that the water in the ground is so frozen that it won't make its way into the pump line at all?
I hate winter. |
Richard O'Connor
Citizen
Username: Roconn
Post Number: 103
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 4:47 pm: | |
Really -- if you haven't had a freeze, you don't have too much to worry about and as I recall excepting in your kitchen most of your plumbing seemed to be on (or rather in) inside walls. If you're really worried about the pipes open the doors to the cabinets under the two sinks and that should be sufficient to add some additonal heat to the area overnight. 
Again, the biggest deterrent is keeping your house all together a little warmer overnight than maybe you normally do.
As to the sump question ... its not terribly likely that your sump outflow pipe will freeze. One hopes it is pitched correctly. If you have 'great' concern, it is easy enough to test or check. Simply fill a bucket with some water and pour it in the sump .. if it goes away (and doesn't re-appear over your head in the form of a leak, then it is probably running quietly down it's drain and out to the street; which is easy enough to visually check. Fresh water in the curb.
If it seems fine the only thing I can suggest to help insure that it not freeze is that you mix a very salty brine and have the sump pump pump that out the drain line ... again, I don't think I'd reccomend it, but it is of course a possible suggestion ....
Richard (ROC)
--Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic.--
--AIM: ROConn |
Yonti2323
Citizen
Username: Yonti2323
Post Number: 14
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 2:00 pm: | |
Follow-up to my prior email: After talking to the owner of Gateway Plumbing, he and I have resolved my complaint over the amount charged for such a short time to unfreeze the pipes. I wish other contractors were even half as responsive to their customers - or at least promptly returned phone calls!
But the moral of the story remains: Regardless of the contractor, always get a price quote before you agree to have work done. |
jfburch
Citizen
Username: Jfburch
Post Number: 1229
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 3:48 pm: | |
ReallyTrying
On the sump pump issue--how new is the system and when was the pipe run to to curb? We dealt with this with our recent French Drain installation and the short answer is that if the pump is trying to push water against an obstruction--like ice--it will bust the pump, and this is possible during freeze/thaw cycles when you might have water inside and ice outside at some point.
ROC is correct that if the outflow pipe is properly pitched you shouldn't have too much of a problem--though I would do what you did and remove any obvious ice buildup at the curb. In a perfect world you wouldn't have ice building up there so as to block the pipe.
But some sumps tie into older drainage systems--and we hoped to do likewise and tie into the cast iron running to the street--and they may not be pitched right anymore--ours flunked when tested by the drain guys.
If your outflow was run relatively recently to the curb and properly installed, you probably don't need to worry. If you are tying into an old outflow pipe, you might want to test it or have it checked by a pro. |
eratosthenes
Citizen
Username: Eratosthenes
Post Number: 15
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 5:32 am: | |
Coming back to the setback issue for a moment (aaahhhh!!!):
MP's excellent post brings out that there are two issues to consider:
1. saving energy, be it for your pocket or for the environment or whatever, and
2. minimizing wear on your heating equipment.
Wanting to understand (2), I got "You've Got Steam Heat" on MP's recommendation in this thread. Holohan does not argue against setback. He does say that the Dead Men designed for coal-fired always-on boiler systems, and you may get knocking because there is more condensate because the pipes get cold at night. But a perhaps more important source of knocking is removing the insulation from the steam pipes (I didn't know that!). Holohan says you can have setback but have a pro look over your system and wiring. Well if you want to do it yourself, I suggest you look through the Attic and make sure you have the right kind of thermostat for steam. *Don't* trust your plumber to install the right kind of thermostat. I'm not, er, knocking MP, just speaking from personal experience.
On (1), MP is right to laugh derisively at the passage he quotes from the DOE publication. How can you make a statement like that with so many cost variables involved? Consumer Reports (1/01 and 7/03 issues) claim that "you can cut [heating] costs as much as 20 percent by lowering your home's thermostat 5° F at night and 10° F during the day when nobody is home." Bruce Harley's book "Insulate and Weatherize" suggests "close to 10% for an 8-hour 10-degree setback." I imagine this depends on how well insulated your house is, but at least it appears to be giving a percentage of energy usage. So figure out how much you're spending on energy and expect perhaps 10-20% savings with the setback suggested by CR. With my energy bills, I'll get my money back in a few months. And oh yeah, there's that environment thing. |
barbara wilhelm
Citizen
Username: Bartist
Post Number: 106
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 9:49 am: | |
Woke up Friday am and my hot water pipes in the kitchen, bathrooms and the hot and cold water in the shower were frozen. Cranked up the heat and opened the hot water taps. Used a hair dryer under the sink in the kitchen, space heater in the shower, and lights under the sinks. In about two hours I heard a clanking sound and the water slowly began to run in all of the taps that were frozen. The water in basement was fine. This method worked for me and I was glad that I was home. Thanks mol. This thread probably saved me a lot of money and I am glad that a pipe did not burst. |
compsy
Citizen
Username: Compsy
Post Number: 97
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 1:30 pm: | |
Another strategy is to temporarily warm crawl spaces in which pipes run by keeping access doors open and even by running an electric room heater or other heat source in the area. Make sure you're not crating a fire hazard, however....
We had one small space under the kitchen sink cabinet area which was too small to reach into with a pipe heater, so I just put a small lamp with a 200 watt bulb in there, and it seems to have done the trick. |
Frost French
Citizen
Username: Frost
Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 12:52 am: | |
I doubt anyone is awake at this hour, but, go figure, my pipe just burst.
I went into the laundry room and heard lots of water gurgling under the floor, checked the water flow in all house taps and there was almost no water pressure. So I quick ran down to the basment, located what I hope to heck is the right pipe, and shut off the water. There is no water apparent anywhere in the basement or the laundry room, but a boatload of it in the crawlspace under the laundry room. The gurgling has stopped and I have regained water pressure in the rest of the house, and I'm hoping my stopgap measures are enough for tonight.
Guess I need to call a plumber first thing in the morning. At this point I'm just hoping I don't wake up with my bed floating near the ceiling. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4350
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 5:02 am: | |
If you stopped the flow to the laundry room you are safe for the night. Rent a pump and pump out the crawl space area first thing on Sunday morning.
Probably the best way to avoid this happening in the future is to have the pipes rerouted through the walls inside the insulation, although this is going to be expensive. If you don't care about appearance, you might be able to run the pipes along the interior walls, although this might be a code violation. The Rube Goldberg solution is to use a space heater in the crawl space. |
ReallyTrying
Citizen
Username: Reallytrying
Post Number: 246
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 12:57 pm: | |
jburch and roc - thanks for your comments. I haven't been ignoring you; I just haven't been here in several days.
The sump pump was here when we moved in 1995, and we haven't had problems (except when the main line backed up once a few years ago, but a call to Mr. Rooter and $150 cleared that up (or should I say "out) right away). ANYway, I'm just a worrier, I guess. The pump's line does seem to be fine. The problem is that every time the town paves the street with that damn rock crap -- whatever it is -- every few years, they do it in such a way that our sump output just pools at the curb. |
Frost French
Citizen
Username: Frost
Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 2:20 pm: | |
Thanks BobK for your response. I can't believe I actually did the right thing, found the right pipe and the right faucet handle thingy to turn off. I have a plumber coming tomorrow to suss things out and make a recommendation. Meanwhile, I can't do any laundry!
Oh, one more thing: I finally got out there in the daylight and shimmied under the crawlspace (a tight squeeze) and saw that it looks like the pipe simply popped apart at a little bendy joint, one of the ones that screw together when the pipes are being installed. So, hopefully there isn't really a burst pipe, just a joint that needs re-screwing together and needs the insulation replaced (it had shifted off the bend).
A silver lining to this whole fiasco is that I feel very "I am Woman, hear me roar" for being able to handle all this myself when my husband was out of town. |
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page