| Author |
Message |
    
gozerbrown
Citizen
Username: Gozerbrown
Post Number: 285
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 12:16 pm: | 
|
This morning I drove up South Orange Avenue and noticed that in one block there are now TWO beauty supply stores. This one has about twenty heads with wigs on them in the window. Gross. Please...no more nail salons, beauty salons, dry cleaners. |
argon_smythe
Citizen
Username: Argon_smythe
Post Number: 99
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 12:27 pm: |
|
Drat, another potential Niemann-Marcus site lost to a non-Niemann-Marcus store.
|
SoOrLady
Citizen
Username: Soorlady
Post Number: 253
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 12:39 pm: |
|
You joke - but there used to be Neimann-Marcus-quality stores in South Orange.... never had to travel far to find that dress for a special occasion, kid's clothes etc. You could even get your kids rigged out for camp complete with a name-embossed footlocker. There also was Decorating on a Velvet Shoestring, and in the more recent past, Molly Dickens. It's a shame the Village can't keep/attract more quality stores... but, we have hope.. the Dancing Goat was a nice addition. |
mayhewdrive
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 669
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 1:01 pm: |
|
Gozer,
Yes...this was discussed a few months ago..http://www.southorangevillage.com/cgi-bin/show.cgi?tpc=3133&post=159066#POST1590 66 ... when it was just a "Coming Soon".
Hey if this "Coming Soon" can become a reality so soon, why can't the things that people actually want (like a supermarket) happen any faster?  |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 857
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 1:29 pm: |
|
Stores stay or come to a town based on the support those stores receive. The high quality clothing stores that were here up until the late 80's left because people stopped shopping in small towns. The same thing happened to Department stores that were not in a mall (Lord & Taylor in Milburn, Saks Fifth Ave in Milburn, Sterns in W. Orange, Hahhnes in Montclair, Bambergers/Macy's in Morristown).
Robert's Florsheim in S. Orange had virtually the same selection as the Florsheim in the mall but most shoppers went to the mall because if it wasn't at Florsheim, there would be several other stores within walking distance plus the department stores. So I know why people go to the malls, but we cannot have it both ways. The better the local stores do the more quality stores will come. It is that simple. And if better stores come and maintain their stores, it will force some of the other stores to improve their businesses.
We have to try to support the local stores first. Sometimes I will even pay a litte extra to keep the business in town. I have purchased gifts at Urban Femme (see, men can shop there too).
MHD: Obviously a lot of people want a beauty supply store or more nail salons, or they would not survive and keep sprouting up in many towns.
|
mayhewdrive
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 672
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 1:56 pm: |
|
Mark,
I don't know if I agree that people "want" so many beauty supply or nail salons. If you look at places like East Orange, Irvington or Newark, you tend to see alot of beauty supply stores (along with check cashing stores & pawn shops). I think they exist because they have very low barriers to entry and have high profit margins. |
SoOrLady
Citizen
Username: Soorlady
Post Number: 254
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 2:20 pm: |
|
Agreed, Mr.Rosner, as I said in another thread, we did it to ourselves when the Livingston Mall appeared. However, even though the large chain stores disappeared from Millburn & Morristown, you must admit that those towns have been able to maintain their character with quality shops. Westfield not only has some charming shops, but dozens of major chain enterprises, Gap, Bombay Co, Talbots, Lord & Taylor, etc, etc., as does Summit. I'd love to support local merchants, but with a few exceptions (i.e some restaurants, Petco & the Good Shepard Book Store), So. Orange isn't selling anything I want to buy. Maplewood and the above mentioned towns are - so that's where my money goes. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4233
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 2:55 pm: |
|
The word is demographics. Upscale chains are looking for upscale customers within a reasonable radius. Unfortunately both SO and MW border towns that are decidedly not upscale.
Downtown Maplewood survives on charm and small businesses. There isn't a chain store in sight and I don't think with Baskin-Robbins gone even any franchise operations, although I know someone will prove me wrong on the last point.  |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 859
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 3:11 pm: |
|
mhd: The bottom line is that people are shopping at these stores. I have seen beauty supply stores and nail salons in most towns (including Milburn and Livingston). Whatever the reason for them to open, they need to do enough business to justify the rent (and some seem to claim those are not small numbers).
SoorLady: Westfield is on Rte 22 and they have stated that their success has been because of that. You will also note that they have lost many of the smaller stores since attracting the larger chain type businesses.
I have shopped in the store (upper trend) under NJ Pets (I assume that is where you meant, not petco), Urban Femme, the Camera shop, village sports shop, Blockbusters, Prescription Counter, S. Mountain Jean Co., and others. I can't remember the last time I bought anything in Maplewood village other than food (not a knock on Maplewood, there is just no store there that I need or want to shop in). I do go to Riccardi brothers on Springfield ave. My favorite place to shop has been online (E-Bay, Staples.com, Amazon and a few others). If the local computer store could do a big enough volume, I am sure he would sell printer cartridges and similar supplies but he would never be able to compete on price with staples or office depot, etc.
Morristown has kept some of the charm but they have large retail space that allowed them to have stores that act as a draw and a destination. Milburn has a lot of places for ladies to buy clothing but it is useless for men (forget the overpriced place on Milburn ave.) except for the large shoe store.
To me, Summit is a success story. Lots of nice small shops, easy to walk, etc. They are very close to the Short-hills mall and yet they still have some very nice stores. Even after a bunch of stores closed in the last couple of years (probably due to 9/11 economy) they have rebounded nicely and continue to do so. How much was due to being a main stop on the train line, the layout of the town, convenience to Rte. 24, is hard to say.
Actually I would love to have a few more small retail shops, but they will only survive if we shop locally. You and I might make an effort, but the majority of people do not shop at small stores. Most go to a mall. And that is why downtowns all across NJ are having trouble. Say what you want, but most downtowns have been converting from retail shops to restaurants, nail salons and service businesses.
I work in NYC on 54th and 6th ave and the two major card shops closed up. The major music shop closed, another restaurant closed and there are several empty locations within two blocks. And some of these have been empty since before 9/11. It is not just the economy, it is how we now shop. Malls and online shopping rule the day right now.
|
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 860
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 3:35 pm: |
|
bobk: By the way, S. Orange has a Cold Stone Creamery which is franchise store from a national chain and the store is beautiful.
Not to mention other national chains/franchises in S. Orange include Starbucks, Dunkin donuts, Dominos, and Pizza Hut.
I apologize if I forgot any. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4236
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 3:43 pm: |
|
Mark, is this good or bad? |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 861
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 3:56 pm: |
|
I love Cold Stone Creamery. My wife loves Starbucks. I usually buy pizza from other local places. My daughter loves the coffee at dunkin donuts.
It is a mixed bag. Good sign that national chains will come to S. Orange. I prefer privately owned places. Cold Stone works because the owner is hands on and friendly.
Did I avoid the answer in a politically correct manner? |
thegoodsgt
Citizen
Username: Thegoodsgt
Post Number: 343
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 8:58 am: |
|
It sounds like the South Orange leadership should meet with Summit community and business leaders to find out how they've managed to be so successful!
Meanwhile, even though I can't point to any evidence or studies to back up this suspicion, I still believe that our best chance for energizing downtown is to attract good restaurants. I don't think you can stop people from shopping at malls, but people will go out of their way to go to good restaurants. SO should be promoting the town in restaurant trade magazines. |
gozerbrown
Citizen
Username: Gozerbrown
Post Number: 286
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 9:49 am: |
|
When I read threads like these, I just keep wondering how Maplewood has been so successful. I enjoy the businesses they have there such as the movie theater, bookstore, furniture store, toy store, etc. Even though on the whole, most people tend to shop at mall, it seems that people who come to Maplewood do so to avoidshopping at the malls.
Also, the reason why I may have missed the "coming soon" sign is that I have no reason to be in that block of SO Avenue. The pizza is awful, that furniture store is not great, I do my dry cleaning in West Orange, etc. And since there is another beauty supply store (add that to the other one in the same block that sells everything under the sun), I have even less of a reason to be there.
I'm sorry to rant, but after living here two years under the "promise" of great things "coming soon", I am sorely disappointed. |
SoOrLady
Citizen
Username: Soorlady
Post Number: 257
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 10:06 am: |
|
Gozer - Maplewood Center has enjoyed success because it's a quaint, out of the way, semi-secret, location. i.e. no major highway running through the middle of town. It has that small-town, community, churning ice-cream at the church picninc atmosphere. A better comparison to S. Orange would be the Springfield Ave. portion of Maplewood - which is slowly being transformed - there is hope for both towns, but only if the residents patronize the businesses - at this point, as far as So. Orange goes I only patronize some restaurants, NJ Pets and the Good Shepard Book Store. But, I have hope. |
NCJanow(akaLibraryLady)
Citizen
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 1136
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 10:45 am: |
|
I have to agree with SoOrLady, you can't compare the ambiance or atmosphere of Maplewood Ave and South Orange Ave. Sloan Street is the closest we have to offer, but it is very small and only has a few shops. Urban Femme, Starbucks, The Creamery, are nice ,upscale places to be. It is hard to capture the feeling of Maplewood Ave when cars are whizzing by and trucks are pounding the road. I think, for what we have to work worth, we are doing an admirable job. Karl in the Camera Shop offers excellent personalized service as does Mailboxes,Etc, So. Mountain Jeans, Dancing Goat,etc. Sure our downtown isn't as "walkable" as Maplewood's, but there is a lot to offer if you look.
NCJ aka LibraryLady
On a coffee break..or something like it.
|
mayhewdrive
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 676
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 10:47 am: |
|
Gozer,
I do agree with you completely. I go to Maplewood for virtually everything (I even find the post office & bank to be more pleasant). I spend quite a bit of time at the Supermarket & restaurants (the movie theater needs some serious improvements, but at least it exists)
Funny Soorlady mentions the "Good Shepard Book Store"....personally, I have absolutely zero need for such a store, but I must admit it is probably the most attractive store along South Orange Avenue (maybe it's the awning). Other stores should invest to make themselves as attractive. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 865
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 10:51 am: |
|
One only has to read the posts from Gozerbrown and SoOrlady to see the problem. There are several dry cleaners in S. Orange, yet the person goes to W. Orange. If the person went to the dry cleaners on Vose, they might stop in at The Dancing Goat, the jewelry store, the general store or if they went to the cleaners on Sloan Street, they might have stopped in Urban Femme or the Cold Stone Creamery. There is a dry cleaners on Valley street, one on Scotland road and all of them have other stores nearby. I am not picking on Gozerbrown, but I hear these kind of comments all the time. Really is the dry cleaner in W. Orange so wonderful that they would not support a place in S. Orange?
So maybe they don't like the pizza at one place but there are several others that have pizza and I imagine at least of them would meet their standards (Bunny's, Resevoir, El Greco, Sunrise, etc).
SoOrLady says she only goes to NJ Pets and the good Shepard Book Store along with some restaurants. She does not go to any other stores - not a dry cleaner, not Pathmark, not Urban Femme, Not Town Hall Deli, not Cait & Abby's, not the rug shop, the two really nice florists in town including one on the block near the beauty supply stores.
If people want more stores or "better" stores, then they need to support some of the nice stores that are here.
S. Orange village is more like Springfield Ave because they are both major thourghfares. That was the reason the village narrowed S Orange Ave. It helped to make it more pedestrian friendly. While the traffic can be annoying, I would rather have a little traffic then have the cars and trucks going at high speeds through the center of town. |
SoOrLady
Citizen
Username: Soorlady
Post Number: 258
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 11:23 am: |
|
Sorry to have included Town Hall Deli & Cait & Abby's (among others) in the restaurant category.. yes, I do patronize more offerings in the "food" category than just sit-down restaurants. I've also purchased a few things at the coin/curiosity shop just up from Carvell's. My dry cleaner is off Parker and has a nice parking lot for convienence.. who wants to spend more time than they have to on errands? My florist is in Union - I get twice the value and equal creativity for the same money I'd spend locally. Pathmark? please. I haven't been in that store since my friend's mother was shot in the parking lot during a car-jacking. I know.. long time ago.. my own parinoia... but I still won't go there. I used to shop in town, I'd like to again. I'd like to see some speciality shops (looking forward to that Gourmet Market) - or how about a nice Irish/Celtic shop so I don't have to go all the way to Summit or Cranford? I'd also shop at a store like the old Decorating on a Velvet Shoestring. To paraphrase Field of Dreams.. If you bring it.. we will come. |
gozerbrown
Citizen
Username: Gozerbrown
Post Number: 287
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 11:47 am: |
|
Believe it or not, I patronize lots of our local business. Unfortunately, we have had unpleasant experiences in many of the local restaurants (either service or food). And we have patronized said restaurants numerous times in hopes that maybe we'd visited on off-days (e.g., Dancing Goat, Gaslight, Bunny's). There are indeed some establishments that we truly enjoy, but unfortunately, they are the chains like DD, Cold Stone, and Starbucks.
Since my husband and I commute on the train, we walk into town all the time, including weekends for dinner, to rent a movie, go to the library, or for coffee or ice cream. We don't drive to businesses in South Orange; we walk there. And that is why that entire block of SO Ave doesn't appeal to me.
And for those of you who are that interested in my dry cleaning, since we walk into the village, I don't like to walk through the park with my plastic bags of dry cleaning flapping in the breeze. There isn't anything worth walking there for. Just a personal preference.
We moved here from other communities where we walked for most all of our services. Perhaps that is where we differ. |
thegoodsgt
Citizen
Username: Thegoodsgt
Post Number: 347
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 1:29 pm: |
|
Like it or not, there's something to be said for convenience. It's easier for me to pop into a store when it's got a big juicy parking lot right in front. By contrast, to go to a store in SO, I have to navigate the traffic, watch for pedestrians, find a parking spot, pay to park, and then walk across traffic (maybe) to get to the shop(s).
I submit this not as an excuse, just as an observation. I think people are inherently lazy, and they don't want to jump through hoops to complete their tasks. (See my comment on the Pet Peeves thread about people leaving trash on the train.) That's why malls are so popular -- easy access, one-stop shopping.
I often wonder if we're beating our heads against a wall with these discussions. Rather than try to change people's behavior (e.g., we're not going to stop people from going to the mall), how can we use what we know about consumer behavior to build NEW solutions? |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4244
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 1:39 pm: |
|
Has South Orange considered eliminating the parking meters? They can't bring in that much revenue. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 867
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 1:56 pm: |
|
thegodsgt: Some people argue that towns like S. Orange should not have a downtown at all. They claim for a lot of reasons including the ones you mention that it is just not worth the long term effort. Some of the best towns in NJ (according to NJ Monthly) do not have a downtown.
I do think you exaggerate about coming to the downtown. The traffic is not that bad, there are lots of spaces closer to the stores than you ever find in a mall and it is easy to cross the streets. Paying for parking is a problem even though it is cheap. The problem is if there were not meters in S. Orange, commuters and employees of local stores would park in the best spots all day long (I know many employees meter feed anyway and take their chances).
We all seem to want the best of both worlds - convenient shopping with nice stores yet no traffic and always get a parking space in front of a store.
|
thegoodsgt
Citizen
Username: Thegoodsgt
Post Number: 350
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 4:38 pm: |
|
Mrosner, I don't disagree with you. But I'm afraid that the pervasiveness of malls and strip malls have lulled people into expecting easy access to parking. (Next time you're at the mall, notice how many people circle the lot looking for the closest possible parking spot.) You're right that's it's really not that bad, but the perception may be there. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 878
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 5:01 pm: |
|
The minor traffic in the downtown with free parking in the NJ Transit lot makes it very easy for me to go the to village.
I have given up on going to Kings in Maplewood because I can't find a space in the lot across the street so now I go to the Pathmark. And I have discovered it really is not bad. It is much nicer than the Shop-Rite/Village Market ever was. They even have a self check-out line which makes it very quick when I only have to get a few items. Granted, it is not as nice as some of the other large markets but it really is acceptable. I will be happy when we get a new supermarket in town but the Pathmark works for me.
Personally, I try never to go to the mall. I would rather shop online and pay a shipping charge than deal with crowds and the parking lots. |
SoOrLady
Citizen
Username: Soorlady
Post Number: 267
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 1:34 pm: |
|
Funny - I rarely have a problem finding a spot near Kings.. and I shop at peak periods.
Gozer - check out this link re:Maplewood
http://www.nypost.com/realestate/44692.htm |
|
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page