| Author | Message | ||
     tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2033 Registered: 12-2001  |
The time has come to restore the military draft. The military is having difficulty retaining soldiers because of the unpleasantness of the mission in Iraq. With increasing frequency, we are seeing older soldiers with children being sent off to do a young soldier's job. Reasons: 1. For the health of our democracy, military service should be a responsibility shared equally across rich and poor, black and white, etc. 2. General von Schlieffen, the architect of Germany's 1914 invasion of France said that he wanted no fathers in the front line. He was exactly a sentimentalist. Sound military logic dictates that you want to minimize the number of parents in combat. 3. The mission in Iraq is pretty small in military terms. We should all be concerned that the standing Armed Forces cannot handle this mission. 4. The military is struggling to attract and retain the necessary personnel. It is said that the decline of Rome began when her citizens could no longer be bothered to fight their own wars and, instead, hired foreign soldiers. I don't know if I quite believe this is why Rome declined, but in a democracy such as ours, it is a serious matter that we are, for the most part, have no exposure to the military at any point in our lives. | ||
| ffof Citizen Username: Ffof Post Number: 1774 Registered: 5-2001  |
Or we could just straighten out this quagmire asap. I would not want my teenager going off to war. And, sending no fathers may cause a rash of teen pregnancies! | ||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 253 Registered: 9-2003  |
If draft is interpreted broadly to include the idea of public service and non-combat jobs, I might agree. I don't favor exclusion of women and parents, though. Growing up during the Viet Nam War, and seeing a lot of quick marriages, quick babies, mistaken education choices, and the effect of the draft on gender equity, I've never been too keen on the way we do a draft. I do see some advantages to all citizens being required to do regimented public service, which would include non combat and combat military options, for those in the 18-22 age range. | ||
| thegoodsgt Citizen Username: Thegoodsgt Post Number: 340 Registered: 2-2002 |
Having served in the military, I'm not sure I'd want to fight along side someone who didn't want to be there. Although you could argue that no one wants to be under fire in an foreign country, I'd put my life in the hands of the young men and women currently in Iraq before I'd ever put it in the hands of a bunch of yuppies (or anyone, for that matter) who have no interest in or respect for national service. Ffof is right. Our national leadership, whether Republican or Democrat (and it's too bad we have only two viable choices) needs to be very careful in comitting our troops. | ||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 255 Registered: 9-2003 |
thegoodsgt, I mostly I agree with you. I think, though, that the narcissism we associate with Yuppies comes, in part, from being separated from the broader community. They could be supply clerks, and put those early business skills to use. I also think that we'll only be more careful when a broader cross-section of our sons and daughters are affected by national service, be it combat or other. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2036 Registered: 12-2001 |
Give me some yuppies and a few good drill sergeants and a just cause and I'll give you back soldiers. | ||
| bobk Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 4221 Registered: 5-2001 |
I have it on good authority that this is part of the agenda for the second term, with plenty of exemptions for the rich.  Kidding aside, if we are going to continue the way we have been going over the last two years, we are going to need more soliders and with reenlistments down, the draft may have to be reinstated. | ||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 256 Registered: 9-2003 |
Exemptions for the rich (or anyone close) completely piss me off. I get really disgusted with the political men, who came of age during the Viet Nam era, who sloped off one way or another and are now hawks. I was very liberal during that time, and married my then boyfriend kinda foolishly so we could run away to Canada together. He was very upfront about his unwillingness to serve, and willingness to dodge and take the consequences. Wouldn't stay in college to avoid, wouldn't have a baby to avoid, didn't have the creds to be a true CO. No shame in not wanting to do combat service in that war, a lot of shame (in my view) in pretending that you did and now being terribly hawkish. I'd rather some candidate who grew up at that time say "hell no, I didn't want to go to the jungle so I got my Dad to get me out of it/knocked up my girlfriend/became an elementary ed teacher" or whatever." It would be honest, and as a female not subject to the draft, I would respect it. On this subject, Bush and Clinton both make me mad -- and a whole lot of other Congress men and Senators and senators. Just tell the truth. They were probably scared witless, didn't believe in it, and found a way out that didn't hurt their career. And to avoid it all, a lot of times I think we need compulsory national service for both sexes and all comers. And people need to be told a little more clearly what staying in the National Guard can lead to. It's not by charter a stateside militia so far as I know... | ||
| Greatest Straw of all time! Citizen Username: Strawberry Post Number: 1732 Registered: 10-2001  |
Rummie says no draft. period. end of story. BUSH/CHENEY IN 2004.. | ||
| Nohero Citizen Username: Nohero Post Number: 2661 Registered: 10-1999  |
Speaking as the parent of a nearly-18-year-old, a guaranty from "Rummie" isn't something I'd take to the bank ... | ||
| Kenney Citizen Username: Kenney Post Number: 297 Registered: 11-2003 |
I think it's always interesting hearing a 'womans' pissed off perspective on how the wealthy avoided the Vietnam war. Tell me cynical one, how many women served and gave their lives in Vietnam? In WWII, WWI? When it comes to abortion rights, women like to tell men to butt out....well, when it comes to war, women should shut the F%%% up! The only limit to our realization of tomorrow will be our doubts of today..FDR.. Liberty, when it begins to take root, is a plant of rapid growth...G.W. Everyone wants a voice in human freedom. There's a fire burning inside of all us...L.W. Dave Ross is the coolest!!(being banned sucks) | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 2576 Registered: 5-2001  |
Kenney, ???? 1st of all, women have sons that may go to war, and 2nd, we pay taxes, and 3rd, ahh forget it. I hope you're kidding. | ||
| Kenney Citizen Username: Kenney Post Number: 299 Registered: 11-2003 |
If I wasn't having fun, I wouldnt be posting. The only limit to our realization of tomorrow will be our doubts of today..FDR.. Liberty, when it begins to take root, is a plant of rapid growth...G.W. Everyone wants a voice in human freedom. There's a fire burning inside of all us...L.W. Dave Ross is the coolest!!(being banned sucks) | ||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 258 Registered: 9-2003 |
I think women should be subject to any draft into public service. War shouldn't be just a men's issue in a direct way, and you're right: so long as women aren't subject to a draft, their opinion especially if hawkish is a little suspect (just like middle aged rich guys who didn't serve). My issue is that I don't like lying about what one did about it, especially if now hawkish. | ||
| Greatest Straw of all time! Citizen Username: Strawberry Post Number: 1733 Registered: 10-2001 |
Nohero has an 18 year old son??? I hope he's the next Alex Keaton. BUSH/CHENEY IN 2004.. | ||
| Michaela May Citizen Username: Mayquene Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2004  |
I'm curious to know if those on this message board who are in favor of reinstating the draft have children in their teen or young adult years. Also, is anyone on this board of the age range that would be drafted? As a 22-year-old (and current resident of D.C., where I don't even get a voting representative in Congress), I deeply resent a bunch of old, white, wealthy, male lawmakers pushing forced military service. That said, it would be the death knell of the GOP were they to push it, save the dire need of something akin to WWII. This country still remembers with great disdain the Vietnam War draft, and I don't think any administration is about to take a move that proved so fatal before. Is anyone on this board who backs a draft of the age to be drafted?! As for mandatory civil service, many countries require it. But perhaps it would be better to encourage a tradition of civil service from a younger age, requiring community service hours during high school and before. You might find that it would create a more genuine desire to contribute to society. Plus I think it's important for even children to know that there are people less fortunate than them that they can, and should, help. What kind of free nation would we be if we force military service in anything but the most dire circumstances? If we end up needing a draft, it'll be because we effed up getting into this mess in the first place. And I won't risk my life and kill innocent civilians to cover Rummey's arse. I also back mem on this. Women may not be eligible for a draft as it stands, but those men are fathers, sons, husbands. Now I have no children, but even I know that most mothers would die rather than allow their child to. | ||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 259 Registered: 9-2003 |
I'm not in favor of combat-related drafts these days unless broadly applied and absolutely necessary. WWII was considered a just cause by many and still a draft was needed. Viet Nam wasn't considered a just cause by many, and there was a draft. If ever there should have to be one again, I think there should be few exclusions and it should include women, that's all. Fairness. I find my thinking moving towards requiring national service of all people in the 18-22 range (men and women, rich and poor, in college or not). In my 20's it struck me that I was still within the draftable age range, and I was a single female, and the social tide had turned to where it seemed like I could get drafted. While I hoped it wouldn't happen, I saw/see no reason why I shouldn't have been. Plenty of non-combatant military roles I could've filled. As it happens, I wasn't some petite type anyway and my vision was 20/20 so I guess I could've been put in a combat role. I have a 10 year old daughter. And I've taught a lot of 18 year olds in college. I think both my daughter, and your average 18 year old, would benefit from a period (2 years?) of required public service, no exemptions, before college or whatever. And I think the community would, too. One form of public service could be the military, in a non-combat role. Or a combat one, if willing and able. | ||
| Kenney Citizen Username: Kenney Post Number: 301 Registered: 11-2003 |
Maybe we should make the 13 or so million illegal immigrants serve in the military....2 birds with 1 stone... The only limit to our realization of tomorrow will be our doubts of today..FDR.. Liberty, when it begins to take root, is a plant of rapid growth...G.W. Everyone wants a voice in human freedom. There's a fire burning inside of all us...L.W. Dave Ross is the coolest!!(being banned sucks) | ||
| Michaela May Citizen Username: Mayquene Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2004 |
But who are we to mandate what is good for *adults*? I am too young to rent a car, and too young to run for Congress, but old enough to be tried as an adult and drafted? C'mon... To require public service because it is 'good' for them seems like an excuse. It is good to stop smoking, it is good to go to college, it is good eat an apple every day, it is good to see a dentist. We don't mandate these things. People are too individual to mandate what is good for them, beyond the most basic things. I do think that any draft should include women. That said, I don't think the right would go for it. I also think it would be wrong to draft two parents for the same child. You'll need some reasonable expemptions -- they just shouldn't be exemptions based on privilige. Kenney, I won't touch that draft the illegal immigrants comment ... I still want to know how old tjohn is ... I'd bet not 18-22... | ||
| chocoholic Citizen Username: Shrink Post Number: 73 Registered: 2-2003 |
I think that there should be a draft. We have alot of of new immigrants in the US enjoying and using the prosperity that US citizens ancestors fought and paid for with their lives. How many Arabs, how many east Indians, how many people from the Carribean, Vietnamese etc have served this country and laid their lives on the line for this country, or worse actually lost a family member. The immigrants who came here during the twenties and in the 1800's had to serve (although they didn't like it-witness the NYC-Draft Riots). I say this because I have had military people in my family who fought in this countrys wars since WWI, a few of whom lost their lives, and several who returned so disabled from PTSD that they had a difficult time functioning in society. Also, the draft would allow people to really think about the necessity and importance of war, especially if their own family members will be involved. |
