| Author |
Message |
    
Don Perkins
Citizen
Username: Cowboy
Post Number: 247
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 10:53 pm: |     |
I am in no way against legal immigration. Immigration has always been instrumental in helping to build this country into the greatest country in the history of the world. My Great-Grandfather immigrated to the United States. He did it legally. Just as my Great Grand-father did, there are numerous people who have been working very hard to immigrate into our country legally. What does this new proposed legislation tell them?
I’ll tell you what it tells them. It tells them that they are foolish for having adhered to the laws. It tells them that they should have broken the law, because had they done so, they would get to live and work here. They could have even brought their families along. They could have broken the law and been given amnesty for a period of three years. After that, they could then re-apply once again.
This is going to gain some votes among the Hispanic population say some. But it may backfire instead if it passes through Congress. Here’s hoping the left with Teddy Kennedy, who thinks it is not enough and the right, like that Congressman from Arizona have enough votes to shoot this proposal down. Forget what it might do to National Security, this legislation will open the flood gates. Reagan did a similar thing back in 84. See how well that worked?
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Copihue
Citizen
Username: Cop
Post Number: 199
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 11:36 pm: | |
What percentage of applicants did they reject when your grandfather came to this country, Cowboy? What part of the world did he come from? Europe? or Latin America? Asia?
Hispanics come here and they do the nastiest of jobs which nobody else wants to do. Are you volunteering to make a career change?
How are you affected by this? why do you care? You are a law abiding citizen who is bothered by the idea that someone should brake the law, a purist?
Pack your own chute. |
CageyD
Citizen
Username: Cageyd
Post Number: 65
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 11:43 pm: | |
What I find troublesome is that the illegal immigrants must demonstrate that they have a job to qualify. If they do that, what happens to their employer who violated the law by hiring someone who did not have a green card or a ss number. Are these employers who skirted the law and failed to pay any fees and taxes on their employees going to get off scott free? I am not a business owner, but I think it is wrong to let the people who were dishonest - by hiring illegal immigrants- get off. The employers who did the right thing and hired documented workers and paid more for the privillege of following the law are getting screwed - Great message to send the masses Georgie boy! |
Copihue
Citizen
Username: Cop
Post Number: 201
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 7:35 am: | |
Those immigrant workers not only are taking the worst jobs at the lowest pay, but they are not complaining, and they are taking a huge amount of risk just for the opportunity to work. That is why they are being hired: they are good workers.
I don't know what businessmen you are talking about who hire undocumented workers while their competitors do the right thing. I see that the guy who trims my trees is an American, but the guys who are climbing up the trees to actually do the work only speak Spanish. My neighbor goes to East Orange to get people to work on his home, otherwise the maintenance doesn't get done. My friend's friend is a manager of an office cleaning service: all his workers are undocumented; he supervises. Undocumented workers are exploited, they know it, we know it. I believe that the only real complaint that people have against undocumented workers is that they can't be exploited forever, that eventually they save enough money to be able to change their circumstances.
Pack your own chute. |
Don Perkins
Citizen
Username: Cowboy
Post Number: 249
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 9:35 am: | |
Copihue, must have hit a nerve with you huh?
If my Great Grandfather had so much as a sty in his eye, he would have been sent back. Yes, he would have been deported. Do I know how many were actually turned away? No. Do I know percentages, Yes, 100% percent of those who sought to gain entry, but didn’t meet the criteria, were refused admission.
What possible difference would it make what part of the world my Great Grandfather came from? Are you going to attempt to make that an issue? Why, so you can spin? Yes, Hispanics do perform many nasty jobs that nobody else wants to do. That helps fuel our economy, but upon arrival, my Great Grandfather did too. He hauled ice from a wagon up many flights of stairs in Brooklyn. It was a hard physical job that many considered nasty. That's why he was able to find work.
Am I volunteering for a job change? Yes. How am I affected by this? It re-enforces in me that following the rules doesn’t work. It makes me increasingly concerned about National Security. I care because of the message it sends to my children and to the host of those who do play by the rules. It is an example that rules don’t matter. I am not a purist, yet I can see this legislation sending forth the wrong message.
So, what’s with you? Why attack the messenger? I stated my belief regarding this situation and rather than disagree, you attempt to attack me with and cloud the issue. Therefore, please tell me why you feel this proposed legislation is good. I’m especially interested in your opinion of what it means to those people who have been working very hard to immigrate into our country legally. Thank you, I await your passionate response because I'm willing to learn, but I still suspect what we saw was pure Hispandering.
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mary james
Citizen
Username: Max
Post Number: 10
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 9:40 am: | |
After 10 yrs of trying to legally into the country who could blame anyone for choosing to just get on a plane and stay here! |
Greatest Straw of all time!
Citizen
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 1738
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 9:52 am: | |
I have no problem with illegals. To be honest, where else can one find a cleaning lady??
BUSH/CHENEY IN 2004.. |
Don Perkins
Citizen
Username: Cowboy
Post Number: 251
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 10:12 am: | |
Straw, how about paying a single mom on welfare?
Oh that's right, she won't take that kind of job. It doesn't pay as well as the food stamps, welfare, medicare, and subsidized, section eight housing, she currently receives. In fact, by taking a job, she no longer can receive those benefits.
Silly me, I'd almost forgotten how the many Democratic social programs put in place have helped promote the lazy attitudes that this country's poor maintain. Can you imagine? Now let me get back to watching my Soaps. |
buzzsaw
Citizen
Username: Buzzsaw
Post Number: 1152
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 10:14 am: | |
Will they get a piece of social security (if it is there) when their time comes?
That's what I'd like to know.
There is. |
mary james
Citizen
Username: Max
Post Number: 11
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 10:23 am: | |
They will have to pay taxes so of course they will be entitled to Social security. |
Don Perkins
Citizen
Username: Cowboy
Post Number: 252
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 10:28 am: | |
Yes, that is the plan as it appears now. They will pay in and then take out. The question is, will they be able to take out more than they put in? |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 656
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 10:49 am: | |
From what I understand the taxes they pay into Social Security would be applied to the retirement programs they have in their home country -- not ours. We already have this understanding with other advanced, industrialized countries I read yesterday.
Employers who have employed these people illegally should be whacked, but you can't leave out the people who broke the law to get that job either. This is all an enforcement area that's been allowed to lapse cuz of an altruistic, compassionate and ultimately WIMPY attentiveness to enforcement. Reagan granted amnesty in the 80s that had rules against corporations hiring these illegals, but inforcement didn't happen. LIkewise, this country doesn't have the guts to deport illegals unless they're engaged in criminal activity -- and then it's probably societies fault, right? Imagine Peter Jennings doing a story on some guy being deported and the country swooning for the poor guy. Just won't happen.
And people care, Cop, for a variety of reasons, not just that laws be followed. Say someone working up here is allowed to bring his wife up and they have a kid -- she's automatically a US citizen. So, how do you have them return to their country after 3 years? Who's got the guts to enforce that? There are social costs -- like Medicaid -- that are a major concern in areas where illegals are abundant. How do you address that? Your attempt at painting Don in racial tones was off. Wait until someone is a racist before calling them one.
This is like when Bush brought up privatizing part of Social Security and everyone panicked cuz he touched the Third Rail of Politics. But he won (thank god) and the discussion is moving ahead on that issue. Good that it is on this issue as well, because keeping it as it is won't work. |
mtierney
Citizen
Username: Mtierney
Post Number: 468
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 12:42 pm: | |
When the president made his announcement of this plan, he gave a moving description of the work ethics of immigrants. I couldn't help but feel he was leaving unsaid a comparison to those Americans who opt for welfare subsistance.
Yesterday's Times had a story on a 46-year-old single mother who had two daughters living with her, one of whom already had a 3-year-old. The older woman worked hard to care for her children and grandchild. The young mother was content to collect welfare and watch her mother go to work! She did grumble of having to take a bus to the welfare office while taking her little daughter!
What blew my mind, however, was the statement by the older woman that she hangs condoms on her Christmas tree for her daughters! 
With this kind of generational conditioning, how can we survive? As I have asked before: Where are these fathers? |
mfpark
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 146
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 1:27 pm: | |
My son was studying for a social studies test last night (6th grade)--the topic is American urbanization and immigration in the 1890's-1900's. Exact same issues being debated about immigration as we have now--immigrants will lower wage scales and increase demands for social services (such as they had back then); illegal immigrants worked in unsafe conditions/sweatshops; political parties using immigrants as political fodder (for it if you get their vote, against it if you would not).
Amazing how some things never change. |
mfpark
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 147
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 1:30 pm: | |
cjc:
You are correct--the Bush plan sounds like the "Guest Worker" progams in Western Europe in the early 1970's. Those have caused all sorts of problems now--once someone comes into a country and establishes community ties and a new life, how can you ask them to leave? Practically impossible short of blunt force; and morally distatesful. How are they less an American when they have ties here, have paid taxes here, helped build our community?
I find it interesting that even the hard right is opposed to this policy (Mulshein, Limbaugh), and not simply from gingoistic reasons but for practical reasons. |
mary james
Citizen
Username: Max
Post Number: 12
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 1:31 pm: | |
mfpark :
The unsafe conditions you speak of were usually their only choice. It was that or not work and starve. You are right in saying that somethings dont change, people like you will see to that!!! |
Copihue
Citizen
Username: Cop
Post Number: 202
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 1:52 pm: | |
Mtierney, the mother in the article was an illegal? three generations of illegals? I don't think so; read it again. Illegals can't collect welfare, they can't let anyone know they are in the country. You are mixed up.
I am not saying or implying that Cowboy is racist, in fact I didn't even think it. It's so far out of my scope that I don't even understand where you get that notion. The past immigration policies of this country were racist. Did you ever go on the tour of Ellis Island? I don't remember how many people were turned back, but they were very few. I went on the tour when the Museum first opened (used to be much better when it left it up to your imagination and to skill of the tour guide to make the building come to life with stories), but I seem to recall it was something like 2 or 3% who were returned. Correct me if I am wrong, please, but it was very few. Meantime the Chinese were not allowed in the country and neigher were Latin Americans and need we discuss Africans? Cowboy made an analogy about his grandfather which didn't fit, that's all I was saying. It didn't fit because back then it was easy to immigrate and now it is very difficult. He can't generalize from his family's experiences, because the situations are different. I am not in any way taking away from the contributions of his grandfather, I am saying that the situation is different now.
This legislation will not allow them to stay in the country legally. They can stay here six years, must reveal their whereabouts, so after six years they can be easily found and asked to check out.
Why is the legislation good? because it is the only decent thing to do. These people work hard, they are not loafers, and they deserve some protection.
Cowboy, you are afraid that illegal immigration is correlated with terrorism? how? They pay to be transported like cattle on trains, containers on boats, milk on trucks -- how are they going to blow up a building like that?
I used to work in Hudson County Community College, and I would enroll illegals who had to pay out-of-county tuition to learn English while born-in-the-USA Americans got free tuition, free books, free fees and not show up to class. Guess who cleaned up on the academic awards at the end of the semester? Why do you want to get rid of people like that, Cowboy? They are entitled to nothing, they have to risk everything to get crumbs, and what they get they send to support their families back home and to save the little they have for the future. Isn't that what your grandfather came to this country for?
Pack your own chute. |
chocoholic
Citizen
Username: Shrink
Post Number: 79
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 1:53 pm: | |
I moved from New York recently. New York state has one of the highest income tax rates in the country because of the abundant social services given to legal and illegal aliens. When they get sick, and illegal alien cannot be turned down for health care, which you and I have to pay. Their children enroll in the public schools, which imposes an extra burden on those of us who are tax payers.
There are some who seem to think that alll of the recent illegal aliens are hard working and take low wage jobs. Well, as someone who worked with various types of immigrants in NY, I can tell you that there are just as many unmarried mothers, people on welfare as there are in the general population. My ex-nanny's grandson's mother (no, she and my nanny's son where never married, and the son is not involved with the child) moved to upstate NY to live with another boyfriend with whom she had another child. She was getting welfare because she had a green card, but she was quite upset that the conditions of her geting welfare required her to at least go to school. All of these people are hispanic, the mother of the two children hails form the Dominican republic.
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mfpark
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 150
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 2:03 pm: | |
Mary James:
My goodness, methinks you need to back off the coffee a bit. I was simply pointing out that there are sweatshops today, just as there were back then. I was not making a moral evaluation--in fact, my grandfather was an illegal sweatshop worker in NYC in 1926-29 before legally immigrating to Canada.
I think your indignation comes from the fact that poor people need jobs, wherever they can get them--couldn't agree more. But there will be social ramifications from this new policy that need to be discussed, understood, and prepared for--which, I believe, is what CJC and others (on the left and the right) are saying. |
drewdix
Citizen
Username: Drewdix
Post Number: 432
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 2:13 pm: | |
The issue is interesting, but what a coincidence that W. proposed this as the election heats up.
This is all about immigrant votes for George, folks.
Just ducky to save this one for 10 months before the election. |
Copihue
Citizen
Username: Cop
Post Number: 203
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 2:27 pm: | |
Illegals don't have green cards. No illegal is on welfare. Illegals don't have green cards. No illegal is on welfare. Illegals don't have green cards. No illegal is on welfare.
So Chocoholic, are you implying that if the guy who prunes the trees falls off the tree, then we should not allow him to get medical care because he is illegal?
Pack your own chute. |
sportsnut
Citizen
Username: Sportsnut
Post Number: 834
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 2:46 pm: | |
Copihue - I don't think the issue is welfare, but illegals do strain the systems that we have. Not to sound callous but in your example who is going to pay for that care? You?
The bigger problem is the precedent that it sets. By granting permanent amnesty what message does that send? Where is the impetus to obey the laws? The flaw in your ellis island argument is that those people followed the rules, that the process was flawed was almost irrelevant. How do you then keep those few undesireable illegals from entering? What message does it send?
The people who came through ellis island wanted to become americans. Not Italian Americans, Irish Americans but Americans. One of the proudest days of my grandfather's life was when he became an American citizen. He did it legally and so should new generations of immigrants. |
chocoholic
Citizen
Username: Shrink
Post Number: 80
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 3:12 pm: | |
Illegals can get certain city services in NYC, that is why a lot of them go there.
The reason that alot of illegals do these jobs is because no else will do them for the pay rate. Your tree worker for instance. It is dangerous work, and he is probably getting paid next to nothing. If the salary were higher , as it shoudl be if you could get, helath isnsurance or workes comp, maybe an American would do this job. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 663
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 3:22 pm: | |
Bush bringing this up is not entirely politically based -- though there is politics in everything. He infuriates a significant number of conservatives -- especially in CA and TX to be electoral about it.
BUT....Bush has been on this issue for his entire political life. He happens to have Hispanics in his immediate family and opposed Prop 187 at the outset. He ran on this idea in 2000, and was pursuing this with Vincente Fox until 9/11 hit.
It's not as cynical and disingenuous as some Democrat talking about a middle class tax cut and then not delivering on it as Democrats haven't in over 40 years.
I think it's quite gutsy. Like touching the 3rd rail of politics and daring to run on Social Security reform in 2000 (and almost winning a plurality of seniors in the process, I might add).
Sportsnut is right on the message it sends on what the law means, as well as Americanization. One reason Fox wants this to happen is because it's the 2nd biggest source of income for Mexico when they work here. By that measure, the yelps of "what about fast-tracked citizenship!!!" doesn't seem to apply to a significant number of illegals in this country. |
notehead
Citizen
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 830
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 3:30 pm: | |
Drewdix wins the prize. I doubt George really gives a bug's butt about the welfare of "illegals" -- he's just looking for votes. He may be alienating (no pun intended) some of the right wing that resents the presence of illegal immigrants, but once again he is also playing to his big-time corporate cronies, who don't have to worry about their cheap domestic labor disappearing.
Would it really be so bad if, in clamping down on the flow of illegal immigrants, a lot of American citizens (even white people!) had to take those undesirable jobs to get by? As many of you pointed out, they were good enough for our grandparents and great-grandparents. It might give more Americans a much-needed dose of humility, and also prevent the ongoing evacuation of the Midwest. |
mary james
Citizen
Username: Max
Post Number: 13
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 5:04 pm: | |
just a thought, if this amnesty goes through and the illegal immigrants get legal status why is it assumed that it will be a strain on the country's assets why not instead assume that the people involved would get health insurance etc.......It is not possible to get health coverage or any benefits for that matter when you are illegally in the country and medical treatment is as we all know insanely expensive. In a lot of cases its not an unwillingness to pay but a case of being unable to. |
Copihue
Citizen
Username: Cop
Post Number: 205
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 5:42 pm: | |
"The people who came through ellis island wanted to become americans. Not Italian Americans, Irish Americans but Americans. One of the proudest days of my grandfather's life was when he became an American citizen. He did it legally and so should new generations of immigrants."
What does this mean? cjc agrees with you, but I am not sure what the two of you are talking about. Are you saying that illegals don't want to become Americans? They are not allowed to become Americans. The legislation is not promising them that they will become Americans in the future. I only promises a guaranteed one-way ticket back home in six years. In six years W will be out of office, and it will be up to the next guy to drive them out.
Going back to the tree prunning example. I actually never gave that guy the job, I hired someone else because I thought he was abusing those kids. But I assure you that the American, whose business it is, was not any cheaper than the guy who I hired who is US born. Hence, he should be paying the hospitalization, because he benefited from the risk that those kids were taking.
W made some very strong overtures to the Hispanic community in the 2000 election. He is obviously going after those votes. As a Hispanic, I don't care why he is doing it, I only care that he does it. It is a very powerful appeal that paid off for him in the 2000 election. He carried the Hispanic vote, but I don't remember the odds, he is working on adding to that margin, and he is succeeding. Democrats talk and do nothing.
Pack your own chute. |
mtierney
Citizen
Username: Mtierney
Post Number: 469
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 6:10 pm: | |
Copihue: Sorry if I wasn't clear when I wrote: "When the president made his announcement of this plan, he gave a moving description of the work ethics of immigrants. I couldn't help but feel he was leaving unsaid a comparison to those Americans who opt for welfare subsistance. "
I never implied that the women in the article were immigrants who could get welfare.
Incidentally, I am first generation American. My grandfather came here several years before his wife. In turn, my mom and her brother and sister came to this country some 5 years later as very young children to join their parents.
BTW, (drifting again) illegals do receive many benefits - our hospital emergency rooms are used for primary care and the hospitals can't turn them away. Children here have a right to an education - whether illegal or not.
The president is attempting to address this issue - give him credit for this. Perhaps over the next few months, dems and GOPs can come up with a good plan, instead of denigrating Bush's approach just because it comes in an election year! If we can't get a cooperative spirit going in Washington, we are doomed.
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anon
Citizen
Username: Anon
Post Number: 907
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 8:23 pm: | |
"The people who came through ellis island wanted to become americans. Not Italian Americans, Irish Americans but Americans."
Really? Is that why they joined the "Sons of Italy" and the Ancient Order of Hibernia"?
Go read "Beyond The Melting Pot". |
chocoholic
Citizen
Username: Shrink
Post Number: 82
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 11:49 am: | |
Give me a break
Children deserve an education...at whose expense? You have a problem with an American on welfare with 2 children getting money to feed those children, yet is OK that an illegal immigrant with a bunch a kids can send those kids to school on our dime. And let me tell you, the tree guy hired a cheap source of labor. If the illegal immigrant weren't there, he would be forced to pay a higher wage commensurate with the dangerousness of the position.
Our economy would not die without illegal aliens. What would happen is that people would get paid a higher wage, this obscene transfer of monies made to the wealthy would slow and technological creativity would accelerate.
I, for one am sick of Americans who have lived here for generation, whose famiies fought and died for this coutry being pushed aside so that politicians can get votes and and business owners can have cheaper labor costs. I think its disgusting.
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chocoholic
Citizen
Username: Shrink
Post Number: 83
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 11:50 am: | |
And what the heck is this from mtierney
" Copihue: Sorry if I wasn't clear when I wrote: "When the president made his announcement of this plan, he gave a moving description of the work ethics of immigrants. I couldn't help but feel he was leaving unsaid a comparison to those Americans who opt for welfare subsistance. "
I never implied that the women in the article were immigrants who could get welfare. "
Puhleez...if you beleve that all immigrants , illegal, hispanic or whatever or paragons of virtue and have little or no unwed mother hood, laziness, alcoholism, whatever, you have to think again. Recent statistics show that Hispanic women have the highest teenaged birthrate in this country. |
Copihue
Citizen
Username: Cop
Post Number: 208
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 8:45 am: | |
I am having the most difficult time understanding why people will paint all Hispanics with the same brush. No matter how many times I repeat it, the idea continues to reappear that Hispanics are crossing the border to get on the welfare line, that that is why they want to risk their lives: for the cushy life of having babies at the cost of the taxpayer.
Illegals don't have any rights; they live in the shadows; they cannot get welfare. You don't hear about them on tv or in the paper, because they don't want to identify themselves as illegals, because they will be shipped out of the country if they bring attention to themselves. Illegals risk their lives, give up whatever security they had in their own environments back home, for the opportunity to work and alter their circumstances and that of their families back home. People who get welfare are passive. They have a different character. Illegals are raised in countries where they are used to getting nothing. The concept of welfare does not exist where they grew up, for there is no safety net. The only life that is real to them is that to eat you must work. Hispanics on the welfare line are legally in this country and assimilated somehow to feel entitled to live from the public largesse. An illegal is always an outsider, to feel entitled would be a huge leap in development, because they would need to feel that they belong. They live with the knowledge that they don't belong every single minute of their conscious lives.
W's proposal does not give illegals the right to get welfare, only to work for six years if they consistently stay with the same employer.
Pack your own chute. |
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