| Author |
Message |
    
jfburch
Citizen
Username: Jfburch
Post Number: 1251
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 10:25 pm: |     |
Oh, and cynicalgirl, you can try to make sense of the state budget here:
http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/omb/publications/03budget/index.shtml |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1833
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 10:35 pm: | |
You're a wealth of information, jfburch. You've made it look like NJ schools are not so out of line in their budgets nor in the size of the administrative staffs (staves?). And why does NJ provide less funding for schools than other states? Now I think McGreevey is all wet.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 344
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 6:25 am: | |
jfburch, thanks for all of these links. I'll read this last one on the weekend. I want to look at (and understand) the components of per pupil spending in particular. I guess in essence I'd like to know if they simply add up all of the education costs and divide by the number students. Obviously, if some budget segment of per pupil were out of whatck (even after cost of living) one might wish to question it. For example, where I used to live, many children took a school bus due to distance. I don't know if transportion is a component of per pupil spending across the board, but if most students don't use the bus in our district, we'd appear to have more $$ for direct educational services. I'm guessing it's difficult to look at the breakdown withini per pupil (transp v distr admin v school admin v infrastructure etc.) Thanks very much for the info. |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 345
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 6:36 am: | |
Just looking quickly at the njsba link. If this data is unequivocally so, I would like to know why the state doesn't spend more on education. So now I find myself wondering: at what rate to NJ folks send their kids to parochial and other private schools? Sometimes, when a greater proportion send their kids to private school, there's less willingness to see state/local monies go to public school. I wonder if there's any correlation there. Just pondering.... |
jfburch
Citizen
Username: Jfburch
Post Number: 1254
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 2:37 pm: | |
Private school numbers aren't unusually high.
From the 2000 census:
National average: about 10%
State average: about 13%
NY Metro Area average, about 15%
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ladyrunner
Citizen
Username: Ladyrunner
Post Number: 11
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 5:33 pm: | |
Kudos to jfburch. Thanks for the links.
Now, can you find a link to money so we don't have to make cuts? |
Dad23
Citizen
Username: Dad23
Post Number: 39
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 5:40 pm: | |
I heard that the super has delayed sharing his budget with the BOE and public.
Here we go again.
They should have gotten rid of him when they had the chance. More of the same budget shenanigans they said wouldn't happen again. |
jfburch
Citizen
Username: Jfburch
Post Number: 1257
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 5:57 pm: | |
My understanding--from a Budget 101 presentation last night--is that the state has moved a major deadline back and everything else is following--by about a week. I think it's taking advantage of an unexpected extension rather than "shenanigans" or some devious intent.
Ladyrunner--I wish I could find that link; Pick 6 isn't working for me. |
Diversity Man
Citizen
Username: Deadwhitemale
Post Number: 595
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 10:06 pm: | |
same shenanigan, with an added week of manipulation.
DWM |
Dad23
Citizen
Username: Dad23
Post Number: 40
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 2:37 am: | |
The super already knows what he will present. He just is not going public until the last minute. |
fringe
Citizen
Username: Fringe
Post Number: 275
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 8:01 am: | |
It remains to be seen whether the public will have the same number of opportunities to comment on the budget, since questions are not allowed (or are not answered), or whether, like last year, the administration is "taking advantage" of the situation to limit such input. |
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 2784
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 10:29 am: | |
The State moving the deadline should not be used to delay the presentation of the budget here. Stamp it "Preliminary", and get it out to the public. This isn't some incidental part of his job, it's one of the main things we pay him for.
Sheesh! |
Dad23
Citizen
Username: Dad23
Post Number: 41
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 12:24 pm: | |
And we pay him a lot. |
jfburch
Citizen
Username: Jfburch
Post Number: 1258
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 2:09 pm: | |
"A lot" is a relative term. It seems in range for a district of our size in this state, though some folks are looking at compensation packages for superintendents generally:
http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-13/1074841098123261.xml |
Dave Ross
Citizen
Username: Dave
Post Number: 6186
Registered: 4-1998
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 3:11 pm: | |
Regardless of what he's paid, it's clear that it's up to the BoE to hold his feet to the fire and open up the process so citizens can participate. |
jfburch
Citizen
Username: Jfburch
Post Number: 1260
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 3:45 pm: | |
The budget calendar (again, from the Budget 101 presentations) has the month of Feb for soliciting community input, and my understanding is that that period will also be extended 1 week along with various other deadlines and due dates in the calendar.
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Reflective
Citizen
Username: Reflective
Post Number: 283
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 9:30 pm: | |
I am beginning to sense a seachange in Nohero's thinking. Bravo! |
Reflective
Citizen
Username: Reflective
Post Number: 284
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 9:55 pm: | |
cynicalgirl: re your 1/23 (6:25am) post on school bus spending.The School Citizens Budget Advisory Committee (School CBAC of the Maplewood Civic Association)identified these components in one of their recent recent reports and will likely do so again.
There are basically two components 1)busng for special education students and 2) non-required courtesy busing between Marshall and Jefferson, and courtesy busing for students who wish to go to Seth Boyden. The non-required courtesy busing is a policy BOE decision to accomplish some of their goals. Some consider it a sacred cow, but as the budget gets tighter, it should be reviewed for need and effectiveness. |
ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 1845
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 8:15 am: | |
Been there done that. They'll never stop busing between M and J because J's sending area is 98% white. God forbid.
THere is also courtesy busing for SM/SM Annex. |
fringe
Citizen
Username: Fringe
Post Number: 279
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 9:03 am: | |
In years gone by, a preliminary budget was always presented the first bOE meeting in January. While the exact amount of state aid was unknown, educated guesses were usually within an acceptable range. Such a schedule created 5 opportunities for public input and 2+ months for the communities to chew on the proposals.
Mayor Profetta attempted to get the BOE to agree to this or longer public budget process for this year, but was met with obstinancy by the administration and BOE who were supported at the November BOE/BOSE liason meeting by Mr. Huemer.
The shorter the process, the fewer the number of citizens that will be involved. |
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 2787
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 11:06 am: | |
Reflective: I've always been consistent in my admiration for the teachers in our district, and in my belief that this is an excellent place to live and to educate one's children. Over the years, I have always expressed a concern with various measures undertaken by the Administration, whether it's the budget shenanigans, misplaced budget priorities, or how the Administration appears to set up unfair treatment and comparison of the different elementary schools.
Maybe you think you sense a "sea change" because you think there are just two groups of people around here - those who criticize everything about the schools (which apparently includes yourself) and those who are satisfied with everything. Take a little time to read what people actually say, however, and you may find there is a greater variety (or, may I say, "diversity") of opinion around here.
And, just as I said last year, this budget process is too short. "Extending a week" is, frankly, inconsiderate to all of the people who are concerned. Weather or scheduling problems arising in the last few weeks should not have been a factor in the delay in getting this information out there - it should have been out before. This already looks like a repeat of last year, and that is inexcusable. |
jfburch
Citizen
Username: Jfburch
Post Number: 1261
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 2:09 pm: | |
Wihin reason, I am not sure that "the shorter the process, the fewer the number of citizens that will be involved."
I also don't have strong sense of the optimal length of time is for the process, and given the number of constraints in the system, it's going to be a challenge no matter what.
This delay does not shorten the calendar--though I suppose one could have used the change in the state deadline as an opportunity to extend the period for discussion.
So, I am curious, how many months or weeks do you (fringe, nohero, Dave, others) think we need for citizen input? What kind of participation are you looking for? What kind of venues for input or communication? Shorter/longer; sooner/later; more involvement/less involvement are pretty vague--and thus impossible to reach consensus about. In the interest of making sense of people's concerns, can you make it more concrete?
Also, it is worth remembering that some new efforts are being made to improve the process and to involve the community--that work may still be unfinished, or even unsatisfactory to some, but it's happening.
In particular, the Budget 101 series, which has been going on since the summer and which was recently condensed and brought to the elementary schools to make it more accessible to a wider audience.
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Reflective
Citizen
Username: Reflective
Post Number: 285
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 5:16 pm: | |
Good post nohero, and I completely concur with your first paragraph.
However, when I see the word "Administration" I also see the Board of Education. The nine elected officials responsible for the quality of education in our district. The Administration is a direct reflection, or should be, of their policies.
Yes, I opine on those education issues of interest to me and which if addressed differently might benefit all students' educational performance.
In addition to the two groups you mention, we both know that there is a third group of "sideline" parents who are just trying to do right for their children but are either overwhelmed by the issues or are too busy to actively participate. They should.
Your third paragraph is right on and imho, directly reflects on the BOE as well. |
Reflective
Citizen
Username: Reflective
Post Number: 286
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 5:32 pm: | |
JFB
The school district budget is extensive, complex and takes time to understand.
The School Citizens Budget Advisory Committee, a part of the Maplewood Civic Association, is a voluntary group of residents who take the time to meet, gather information and then produce a report to the Board of School Estimate. Specifically to the 3 Maplewood committee members who represent the residents of Maplewood on approving or disapproving the budget. Otherwise, we, Maplewood residents and South Orange residents would vote to approve or disapprove the school budget.
The service to the BOSE is vast because the Committee members appointed to the BOSE simply do not have the time to understand the issues.
How much time is Needed? A lot. The administration in the past has stonewalled the CBAC's request for public information, provided incomplete information and so on. If the CBAC is to be successful, they need the time to gather it, and put it together. Their report doesn't try to impact curriculum, but helps provide information on programs, maintenance, cost and so on. This helps the BOSE to hit the ground running and helps focus their questions on budget matters without wasting time being brought up to speed.
I suggest you join the School CBAC and learn first hand just how much time is needed.
The CBAC is composed of residents and another big plus is the information they take away from the process. |
J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 850
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 11:03 pm: | |
Burch, do you have any idea which members of the existing Board will be endorsing your run for BOE this spring? |
ladyrunner
Citizen
Username: Ladyrunner
Post Number: 12
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 2:26 pm: | |
jfburch,
Your arguments are logical that salaries and district spending are in line or less than other districts and states. The problem is we still won't have enough money to keep what we have.
And the superintendent should not withold the budget if he already knows what he is going to submit to the BOE.
Your budget posts are good for background information, but they don't seem to face our reality. So what are you trying to convince us to do? |
Diversity Man
Citizen
Username: Deadwhitemale
Post Number: 601
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 3:33 pm: | |
Wait, wait.
There is more than one way to endorse someone.
Overt, behind the scenes, providing links to place on the web, counselling one to cut out the far out fringe political postings on ed issues, to appear middle of the road, until after the election.
Dave: is there a way to pull up the old jfburch postings?
DWM |
wharfrat
Citizen
Username: Wharfrat
Post Number: 932
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 5:26 pm: | |
Wait, wait.
There is more than one way to endorse someone.
Overt, behind the scenes, providing links to place on the web, counselling one to cut out the far out fringe political postings on ed issues, to appear middle of the road, until after the election.
Dave: is there a way to pull up the old jfburch postings?
DWM
I just figured it out, DWM is Dennis Hopper from "Apocalypse Now".
Just goes to show, speed kills! |
Diversity Man
Citizen
Username: Deadwhitemale
Post Number: 603
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 5:59 pm: | |
And Robert Little's posts, please.
He wasn't in the movie, and neither was DWM.
Dennis Hopper?
The artist?
Was he the guy who mortared the hectoring VC?
BTW, the helicopter scene was down right scary, down to the music, with one caveat, you never flew a chopper directly over the enemy's guns if you could avoid it. Too easy to take a direct hit.
DWM |
Diversity Man
Citizen
Username: Deadwhitemale
Post Number: 604
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 6:00 pm: | |
The one ear per kill guy was real, but WWII.
Read "Behind Enemy Lines in Burma with the OSS" for fun and education.
DWM |
jfburch
Citizen
Username: Jfburch
Post Number: 1269
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 9:48 pm: | |
ladyrunner, I am not sure I am trying to convince anyone of anything--except maybe to face our reality--which as I see it, is that we are between a rock and a hard place because of our school funding system--and, unfortunately, it's going to hurt more or less no matter what we do, in the short run anyway.
To some degree, whether it hurts more, or hurts less depends on what we do and how we, as a community, do it. I think understanding the background will help us face the situation better--even if it doesn't tell us what to do (besides push for school funding reform).
|
John Davenport
Citizen
Username: Jjd
Post Number: 124
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 11:57 pm: | |
Excellent post Nohero. Too many people now see only two sides to education debates in our district: the Administration is entirely right on everything and more put-upon than a martyred saint, or the Administration is entirely wrong on everything and led by a cacodemon. Neither extreme is very sensible. This is going to be a very painful budget debate this year. |
J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 853
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 1:03 pm: | |
Burch: "I am not sure I am trying to convince anyone of anything--except maybe to face our reality--which as I see it, is that we are between a rock and a hard place because of our school funding system--and, unfortunately, it's going to hurt more or less no matter what we do, in the short run anyway."
Appeals to realism can sometimes disguise an unhealthy fatalism.
Indeed, the state funding structure and local tax burden limit what our school district can do as it is currently configured. But not everyone is persuaded that the way things are is the only way they can--or should--be.
Some will say our growing tax bill and shrinking educational services ultimately will be accepted politically as citizens realize we have no alternative to it (county-wide, state-wide). But I think there must be ways of implementing changes that respond to citizens' growing concern for the district's educational quality and the appropriateness of the price tag for it, just as the district has implemented changes designed to bring about greater racial equity.
JD: "This is going to be a very painful budget debate this year."
Yes, I think so. And what's going to come of it, if not this year then next, is that those members of the BOE who have said it's time to look at a fundamental restructuring of the budget (aimed at doing better with less, rather than amputating limbs off the status quo year after year) will be proven right by the voters.
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J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 854
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 1:06 pm: | |
Nohero: "And, just as I said last year, this budget process is too short. "Extending a week" is, frankly, inconsiderate to all of the people who are concerned. Weather or scheduling problems arising in the last few weeks should not have been a factor in the delay in getting this information out there - it should have been out before. This already looks like a repeat of last year, and that is inexcusable."
I couldn't agree more. |
mellie
Citizen
Username: Mellie
Post Number: 376
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 2:00 pm: | |
more time burchie, else why bother at all - if you don't think we need an extra week, maybe we need a week less, or 2 weeks less, oh what the heck just approve it sight unseen then |
jfburch
Citizen
Username: Jfburch
Post Number: 1272
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 2:43 pm: | |
No fatalism here. And I am all for exploring alternatives, possible changes, and ways of doing more with less. So are lots of folks--even when they don't agree on the particulars. Differences of opinion are why we need to have the conversation and why it's difficult.
Realism is one of many things we need to bring to the discussion. |
J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 855
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 7:13 pm: | |
"I am all for exploring alternatives, possible changes, and ways of doing more with less. So are lots of folks--even when they don't agree on the particulars."
Can you be more specific? Which folks, what particulars?
"Realism is one of many things we need to bring to the discussion."
What do you feel is unrealistic and who exactly is proposing unrealistic solutions to the budget problem?
Perhaps I'm jumping the gun. You haven't defined what you mean by "realism." I'd ask, except that I'm afraid your meaning would turn out to be tautological.
So, since you are running for BOE this spring, and since you've taken it upon yourself to inform us that "the discussion"--that is, the nonexistent discussion that can't actually take place until the superintendent consents to show his proposed budget to the citizenry--needs to have realism brought to it, let's get real: what exactly are your objectives for this school district, and how would you propose achieving them given realistic budget constraints? |
Reflective
Citizen
Username: Reflective
Post Number: 293
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 7:40 pm: | |
You go, J.Crohn!
You hit the bullseye, again. |
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