| Author |
Message |
    
sportsnut
Citizen
Username: Sportsnut
Post Number: 842
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 11:58 am: |     |
Tom, of course you know I was only kidding about the spying thing. |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1700
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 12:09 pm: | |
Oh, I didn't see the smiley at first, because I was looking at email, not the web page. The email doesn't pass the smilies on. But yes, I realize it now. No harm done. I'm slow to notice jokes normally anyway.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
|
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4283
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 12:28 pm: | |
Actually I have seen a few houses where the vinyl windows really stand out and look baaaddd. Nothing like thick sashed one over ones on a Victorian.
Hate to give Virg a boost, but sometimes they really are glaring. |
virgilian
Citizen
Username: Virgilian
Post Number: 200
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 6:37 pm: | |
Tom,
Sorry, I just was thrown by your using the term "politically correct" relative to windows and didn't take your question seriously.
I expect no one in town to be led by neighbors' dictates regarding aesthetics so it seemed silly. I'm chiming in occasionally to bring up aesthetics because I never see the subject brought up and I am disappointed by changes in the townscape.
The flat cheap 2-dimensional quality of a cheap window usually has one or more of these identifying characteristics:
1) Large deformation(or "oil-canning") of the single sheet of cheap glass.
2) Muntins behind this cheap glass, usually out of plastic or aluminum; these are behind the reflective cheap glass and have no profile or depth
3) sometimes there are no muntins(why bother!)
4) big unweildy new jambs('frame' around the moving parts) and smaller sash size than the original (many bad installers undersize the new units and fill in with extra plastic)
5) glaring white color of all plastic parts. These are petroleum waste products.
6) To spot them in coming years: they also degrade, as all pvc does in the sunlight, and someday they'll all be cracked and yellowed like an old computer carcass. Contributing to the pcb's in the environment.
These characteristics are visible and soon visible contrasts to multi-paned wood sash, which are composed of individual pieces of glass, each pane with its own reflection(often varied itself because of age), creating a beautiful play of light amongst the structural muntins of proper depth, profile and shadow, that actually with metal clips and putty hold the glass in place.
Wood windows are usually painted, in a color to complement the house. The effect of the individual pieces of glass is usually subtle but really stunning at times, especially early or late in the day. These windows are built to last, mine are 90 years old and work flawlessly; I keep them in good order.
There are of course great old metal windows, the English type from the '20's that are puttied from the outside like a wood window. I've spotted a few of these about town, thery are quite rare and endangered because of thermal transmission of heat through the steel parts.
And to be "politically correct" Tom, I do like vinyl windows and vinyl siding and aluminum stuff like silhouttes of horses and buggies and monograms applied to aluminum awnings if that's the critical mass of the area's look already. All that stuff is very New Jersey. I love Union. I love Irvington. I also love the hiccup of pastoral Maplewood and want to remind others how fragile its character is. With every stripped bit of architecture we lose something cumulatively.
|
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1724
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 6:46 pm: | |
virgilian wrote: I expect no one in town to be led by neighbors' dictates regarding aesthetics so it seemed silly.
Then why did you start this thread?
And once again, how many feet or meters from a window must I be to discern what you describe? I hope you can provide a numeric answer.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
|
virgilian
Citizen
Username: Virgilian
Post Number: 203
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 7:20 pm: | |
Tom,
Gosh and after I went to such pains to engage your question.
That took a while and you're selectively pulling lines out of it.
I'm depressed now that such a nice neighbor as you
has been rubbed the wrong way.
Tom this forum is good for expressing opinions, I only have opinions, I have no governing jurisdiction.
Renovating a house can be done in many different ways; the prevailing way I've noticed is a somewhat lazy replace-it-all-from-Home-Depot way and I thought I'd mention it here.
I can dictate nothing, obviously.
There is a value to my thread: maybe someone will think twice before stripping an old house.
So, Tom, I don't know the answer to your question.
I can see bad windows from probably 5 houses away; I have perfect vision and don't wear glasses.
So, given that many lots in town and on a street I'm thinkin of are 60 feet wide, I'd say from 300 feet I can see a house that's had its eyes gouged out. The dumb-dumb flat muntins are the giveaway, or is it the blinding snow-white pvc? I don't know.
300 feet. This is not precise.
|
virgilian
Citizen
Username: Virgilian
Post Number: 204
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 7:27 pm: | |
Bobk-
what an unqualified endorsement from my New Best Friend With Whom I Agree on All Matters to Every Degree!
|
virgilian
Citizen
Username: Virgilian
Post Number: 205
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 8:06 pm: | |
Tom,
Let's say a dark brooding Tudor mountainside cottage in the woods is our subject.
Against say, dark brown irregular lapped "bark-edged" siding and a handsome gray slate roof with some deep earthy browns thrown in, the white plastic where the original dark or perhaps verdigris-toned English casements would have been would then be visible from a considerable distance--maybe twice as far away. To please you: 600 feet. |
virgilian
Citizen
Username: Virgilian
Post Number: 206
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 8:12 pm: | |
Tom, I guess it all depends on the context of the cheap plastic replacement window and is not always consistantly quantifiable in terms of distance.
I guess if you stand far enough away from anything you can't see it anymore.
Squinting, poor vision also obscure details.
If your point is that you can only see the windows up-close, you're wrong. And even if you were right, would you defend erasure of all details not visible from say, the street, as fine for the architecture of a typical house? When you look closely at these treasures around us, the smallest details are wonders. They really are. Breathtaking.
|
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4295
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 8:46 am: | |
Virg, please don't go that far. I don't have a problem with most replacement windows, including some of the vinyl ones (the ones with muttons applied to the outside as well as the inside). It is just some of them are really spectacularly inapprobriate. |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1727
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 8:50 am: | |
You haven't rubbed me the wrong way. You're an aesthete, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm just mystefied as to why this has become such a crusade for you. Thanks for all your detailed answers. They are both interesting and funny. I'll try to become more aware, and I'll try to use this newly acquired awareness for good rather than evil. A good purpose would be to appreciate the good windows, whereas an evil one would to feel angry at the bad ones or superior to the people who have bad windows.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
|
virgilian
Citizen
Username: Virgilian
Post Number: 213
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 2:30 pm: | |
Tom,
I agree with your last sentence and apologize for coming across in such ways. |
Richard O'Connor
Citizen
Username: Roconn
Post Number: 120
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 9:44 am: | |
I must say, I've lately spent a greater amount of time traveling the residential neighborhoods of maplewood (thank you maplewoodians?) and I don't notice it. I noticed a number of houses that need to do something about thier windows ... but in all those cases it was a need for paint, glazing or something.
I didn't notice (or at least to me they didn't stick out the way it's been made to sound here) replacement windows that were destroying the character of the homes they were in. . .
Maybe it's just me ... but I really was looking ... (this thread has made it something I am looking for now).
Richard (ROC)
--Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic.--
--AIM: ROConn |
virgilian
Citizen
Username: Virgilian
Post Number: 238
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 6:01 pm: | |
Richard,
I'd love to compile a listing, complete with a map locator. Great, eh? but on my own beloved street a couple of houses this year have fallen victim. Maybe I am in Union. |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1772
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 6:02 pm: | |
Maybe we should draw up a recommended dress code, too, for keeping people in character with the rest of the town.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
|
virgilian
Citizen
Username: Virgilian
Post Number: 239
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 6:04 pm: | |
Tom,
Clothes used to be more change-able than windows. |
virgilian
Citizen
Username: Virgilian
Post Number: 240
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 6:07 pm: | |
I don't want Maplewood to look like Union! I don't!
Why should it?
I'm at my wits' end.
|
virgilian
Citizen
Username: Virgilian
Post Number: 241
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 6:13 pm: | |
I'm a judgmental, trivial, classist wretch. I think Maplewood houses are BETTER because they are lovely. BETTER. Houses in Union are not as GOOD. They are not as well-taken care of or interesting.
If it's okay for us all to accept what's worse to not be judgmental or hurt anyone's feelings, than we should all continue not caring about cheap windows and other degradations.
|
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1773
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 6:13 pm: | |
Sarcasm aside, my point is that this seems like a very minor point to many of us, since we have said we can't see the difference, at least not overtly. Furthermore, even if it were a sweeping trend, I think getting so bent out of shape seems to be a waste of your energy, since I don't think you're going to effect much change, especially with your condescending tone.
My analogy is that dress styles have become very casual lately, and I lament it somewhat, but complaining about it would seem like more hot air than anything else.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
|
virgilian
Citizen
Username: Virgilian
Post Number: 242
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 6:18 pm: | |
It's your blindness and the apparent increasing blindness in town regarding windows that makes me foam at the mouth. I guess you can't discuss aesthetic blindness without condescending. |
virgilian
Citizen
Username: Virgilian
Post Number: 243
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 6:21 pm: | |
These are the cheapest windows available I'm talking about. Maplewood deserves better. |
virgilian
Citizen
Username: Virgilian
Post Number: 244
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 6:23 pm: | |
And maybe it's worth this energy on my part if I don't have to see windows befitting landlord retrofits in East Orange all around me. |
virgilian
Citizen
Username: Virgilian
Post Number: 245
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 6:37 pm: | |
I guess I don't mind peeving and insulting neighbors who've already bought cheap windows. I just like bringing up a topic here that might spread to people's minds when they consider renovations. I know I'm not "affecting change" directly, but if I plant one seed of hesitation in even one person's mind when the plastic vendors come a-peddling, I've really done something. |
virgilian
Citizen
Username: Virgilian
Post Number: 246
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 6:41 pm: | |
And if I were to really anger a neighbor, I doubt I would inspire enough spite to make someone destroy their house who wouldn't otherwise. So on balance I have nothing to lose with my annoying condescending trivial mis-guided delusional intrusive judgmental hypocritical(I have vinyl dentures) posting. |
virgilian
Citizen
Username: Virgilian
Post Number: 247
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 6:45 pm: | |
So Tom,
I guess I shouldn't have apologized for coming across so badly. I must have intended to. |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1774
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 10:20 am: | |
It's quite all right. You've given quite a few chuckles to me and probably others.
Beauty is still in the eye of the beholder. You do not elevate yourself by showing your disdain for other people's taste. You might have better luck planting seeds of hesitation if you didn't fertilize them with turpentine.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
|
compsy
Citizen
Username: Compsy
Post Number: 98
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 11:34 am: | |
I just drifted into this thread (haven't read the archived section), and I do appreciate Maplewood/South Orange's architectural asthetic, but did anyone address the financial vicissitudes (sp?) that constrain many people's decisions about how to "fix" what they perceive as "broken" in the barriers between them and the elements?
I wonder if there's a little class struggle going on here, with some folks unable to maintain a standard of residential aestheticism, or not even being aware of it, and then getting indignant when someone points that out.
We lived for a while in a beautiful 1920's house that eventually was going to start costing way too much to continue maintaining, let alone "restore" properly, given our finances.
For that and other reasons, we actually decided to move to a smaller, newer, different kind of house, and put whatever money we could into changing that house's inside space flow and access to outside. It has less charm but its infrastructure is easier to live with, and it works better for how we are living now.
I consider us lucky to have been able to make such a move and not embarrass our neighbors or ourselves with sub-par renovations....
|
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1777
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 11:41 am: | |
That's it, compsy. There are always compromises. The question is, which ones are you willing to make? My house was built, as far as we can tell, in 1888. Obviously, it has been modified a few times. We disagree with the aesthetic sense of the previous two owners. We often find ourselves thinking, "What were they THINKING?" But we willingly bought it. So we shake our heads and make our decisions. We're restoring some things to their original flavors, leaving some things, and leaving some things to fix later.
Some of it is costly, but it's worthwhile to us. The front room, which we call the parlor, used to have pocket doors in two places: one pair leading to the foyer, one leading to the room we call the living room, which has the fireplace. Previous occupants removed the doors and put wiring across the pockets. They covered the pockets and the walls with tasteless (in our view) wood panelling. I can only guess why they got rid of the doors. Maybe they were worn beyond repair. I'd prefer to think that than that the people just wanted a more modern look. We bought two pairs of doors on ebay and plan to put them in soon. My wife will be teaching music (voice and piano) in the parlor, so she needs to have doors that close.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
|
compsy
Citizen
Username: Compsy
Post Number: 99
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 12:05 pm: | |
Yes...form often follows function, and in a parallel set of parameters, aesthetics matter. They're just more subjective! |
virgilian
Citizen
Username: Virgilian
Post Number: 253
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 12:13 pm: | |
Aesthtics are subjective. But I doubt that the appearance of cheap vinyl windows is what makes them suddenly attractive. My guess is that the cheap cheap price and the fact that "I wasn't the first one on the street to do it" makes some people feel okay about stripping their houses. It's also easier to have a big truck of plastic back into your driveway and unload than find a good regular handyperson to fix your beautiful 90 year old windows that worked until they stopped being maintained.
|
virgilian
Citizen
Username: Virgilian
Post Number: 254
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 12:14 pm: | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Vinyl emits polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) and dioxin, which according to the EPA is "one of the most toxic and environmentally stable tricyclic aromatic compounds of its structural class," meaning that it does not break down easily in the environment. Vinyl building products include windows, siding and flooring, PVC pipes, adhesives, and vinyl shower curtains. Vinyl windows and siding are exposed to direct sunlight, which increases their rate of dioxin gas emission."
source:
http://www.mindfully.org/Sustainability/Build-Green220ct02.htm
|
virgilian
Citizen
Username: Virgilian
Post Number: 255
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 12:16 pm: | |
The PVC waste crisis
The world is facing a waste crisis from PVC. Short-life PVC products, disposed of within a few years, have caused serious PVC waste problems, especially when incinerated.
The average life span of the durable products -which make up more than half of PVC consumption - is around 34 years. Durable vinyl goods produced and sold since the 1960s - when the plastic boom began - are now just starting to enter the waste stream. We are only now seeing the first stages of an impending PVC waste mountain.
Graph of PVC currently in use and due to enter the waste stream
There are currently over 150 million tonnes of long-life PVC materials in existence globally, used mostly in the construction sector, which will constitute this waste mountain in coming decades. Taking into account the ongoing growth in production, by the year 2005 this amount will double and the world will have to deal with approximately 300 million tonnes of PVC starting to enter the waste stream. The amount of PVC waste arising in industrialised countries is already expected to grow faster than PVC production.
Of even more concern is the fact that the PVC industry is rapidly expanding in Latin America and Asia, so that eventually a growing waste mountain will be generated in these parts of the world.
In light of the large volume of long-life PVC products due to become waste in the coming decades, and the projected increase in PVC production, it becomes apparent that an international PVC phase-out is urgently required. Only this will put a halt to a growing, dangerous and intractable waste problem."
source:
http://archive.greenpeace.org/toxics/html/content/pvc3.html |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1779
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 12:16 pm: | |
I know what you mean about people considering the cost of initial purchase and forgetting about upkeep costs. I face that problem a lot in the computer biz.
Dave, you recently added a "finance & investments" section of this board. Do you think you could also provide a "vinyl windows" section? This topic is not about to die.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
|
virgilian
Citizen
Username: Virgilian
Post Number: 256
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 12:16 pm: | |
"PVC products are potentially extremely hazardous in the environment. Greenpeace is campaigning for a switch from PVC to alternative products in buildings, whilst the Swedish Parliament decided in 1995 to implement a complete phase out of PVC products. The Swedish Minister for the Environment recently said: 'It is no longer a question of if PVC should be phased out but how it shall be phased out.'
In particular PVC presents the following problems:
PVC is highly polluting in production: chlorine manufacture results in emissions of organochlorines and mercury, whilst PVC manufacturing means wastes contaminated with dioxins and other organochlorines.
Intermediate products, for example Vinyl Chloride Monomer, are highly toxic and carcinogenic, and even in countries with rigorous environmental controls, emissions into the environment occur.
Disposal of PVC by incineration creates dioxins,some of the most dangerous toxins known to man, other organochlorines and hydrogen chloride gas. PVC is the main source of dioxin pollution.
Disposal of PVC by landfill means leaching of toxic plasticisers and heavy metal stabilisers. PVC has low biodegradeability.
Recycling of post-consumer PVC is technically very difficult and is at present not a realistic possibility. The wide variety of different PVC formulations with different additives means that in reality recycling is impossible, although some limited 'downcycling' into lower grade material may be feasible. Any future recycling or downcycling technology would almost be unacceptable environmentally because of the almost inevitable emission of dioxins and other toxic compounds into the environment.
PVC is highly energy intensive in production in comparison with timber.
PVC derives in part from petrochemicals: present reserves of crude oil are estimated at present consumption at less than 40 years.
A wide range of toxic additives are required for PVC to give adequate performance, including heavy metal stabilisers, plasticisers and fungicides.
PVC frames are popularly promoted as 'maintenance free', but require regular cleaning to maintain their appearance and optimum performance. UV radiation from the sun causes degradation and eventual damage to PVC frames which become brittle and powdery.
Damage to uPVC frames is extremely difficult to repair, resulting in replacement where timber frames could simply be repaired.
Most uPVC frames are actually composites of PVC and steel, resulting in further complexity in disposal/recycling.
PVC products contain measurable quantities of dioxins, furans and PCBs: for some time after manufacture products offgas various chemical constituents and may release highly carginogenic Vinyl Chloride Monomer.
PVC products give off hydrogen chloride gas, dioxins and phosgene when burnt, adding to the hazard of household fires."
source:
http://www.greenbuildingstore.co.uk/eco-environ.php |
virgilian
Citizen
Username: Virgilian
Post Number: 257
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 12:18 pm: | |
"Solid vinyl windows have been promoted for their durability, but studies done for the Canada Centre for Mineral and Energy Technology call into question some of those claims. The study Long Term Performance of Operating Windows Subjected to Motion Cycling found that air leakage through the vinyl casement windows increased 136% (significantly more than the aluminum and fiberglass windows tested, and somewhat more than the wood windows tested). "Visual inspection revealed that unreinforced PVC profiles are subjected to distortion," concluded the report, adding that this is caused by "the lack of rigidity and the high coefficient of linear expansion of sash members." Because of the construction of vinyl windows, strength is highly dependent on the extrusion design, and the Canadian study included only a few vinyl windows out of the hundreds that are produced.
Vinyl is projected to garner a growing share of the window market in coming years, according to AAMA. One of the reasons is reduced availability of the old-growth wood that has long been prized by wood window manufacturers. To date, most of the growth in vinyl window production has been at the expense of aluminum windows, but window manufacturers who have traditionally used wood are expected to turn to vinyl as well as other materials for replacing clear pine and fir. In fact, this is one of the building technology areas where we can expect to see the most change over the next ten years. Exactly what role vinyl plays in that transition will depend in part on how accepting users are of vinyl's environmental record."
source:
http://www.buildinggreen.com/features/pvc/pvc.cfm |
virgilian
Citizen
Username: Virgilian
Post Number: 259
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 1:10 pm: | |
We pull oil out of the earth and build oil-waste shelters from it. Little hives of waste, un-renewable.
Yucky. |
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page