| Author |
Message |
    
irishmex
Citizen
Username: Irishmex
Post Number: 20
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 9:19 am: |     |
I have an oil fired, two pipe steam system. My 8 year old Well Mclain Gold boiler is leaking steam due to massive corosion. Someone told me just to replace the boiler and not all the other stuff like the burner, auto-water feeder ect. Of course my oil company ,Mitchelle S, said I have to buy everything because it all comes as one package and that they will not cover it if I don't do it their way. Does replacing just the boiler sound like a good idea?
Now may also be the time to make the swith to gas. Is it true the gas company will give me a free/inexpensive furnace for switching? Sounds too good to be true.
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jgberkeley
Supporter
Username: Jgberkeley
Post Number: 3414
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 10:39 am: | |
Something is really wrong here. Those boilers have a life span measured in 20 - 40 years, not 8.
What destroyed it?
Switching to gas may be a good idea at this time, however, getting a cheap boiler would be a mistake.
Work a deal where you get a credit toward a good boiler and more important, get a Very Good install job. That is worth more to you than anything else.
The boiler must be sized correctly for your house. The near boiler piping must be steel not copper. The design of he near boiler piping must be correct, and the cause of your current boiler failure must be understood and corrected.
Good luck.
George
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic. |
irishmex
Citizen
Username: Irishmex
Post Number: 21
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 11:17 am: | |
That's what i'm hearing from a friend that works for an oil company. 8 years is crazy! The block is made from cast iron and has crumbling iron/rust coming off the top and sides with steam leaks in 2 locations. I must have too much humidity in my basement. I can't think of any other way this could have happened.
I'v just heard from Mitchell S - they agreed to change the block only and use all my current parts. The old block will then go to Well-McClain for inspection and a pro-rated warranty refund.
I'm still not sure if going all new would be better. I'll have to compare the costs.
Thanks for your input.
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bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4402
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 11:26 am: | |
I am not a steam head, but this sounds like the boiler cracked, probably because of a problem with the low water cut off or from adding cold water when the boiler was hot. |
tourne
Citizen
Username: Tourne
Post Number: 296
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 11:38 am: | |
If you change to gas, which is a great idea, PSE&G may have incentives. Also, buy the highest efficiency Energy Star Rated boiler you can get. Oil heat is a dinosaur! |
emmie
Citizen
Username: Emmie
Post Number: 239
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 11:46 am: | |
Irishmex,
This just happened to me last month. I had a Well-McLain that was only about 15 years old. The low water shut-off valve failed and the boiler cracked. I had new boiler, pipes etc. installed. The best part, homeowners paid for all but my deductable. So you should check and see what is the cause of the problem with this fairly new boiler and check with your homeowners. They will send someone out to verify the problem. Same thing happened to my friend and her homeowners paid also. BTW, I have oil heat. |
irishmex
Citizen
Username: Irishmex
Post Number: 22
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 4:36 pm: | |
Emmie,
Thanks for the idea. Unfortuantely State Farm no longer covers boilers.
I'm looking at $3000 for changing just the Weil Mclain boiler block and reusing existing parts. It seems high to me. Mitchell S. will not quote me on a whole new Peerless boiler until they see my house.
Looks like there is no easy way out. I'm still toying with idea of going gas and digging up the tank. If I have to spend $3000 to $5000, why not go all the way?
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Master Plvmber
Citizen
Username: Master_plvmber
Post Number: 172
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 5:05 pm: | |
Irishmex, you seem to be taking this rather lightly, which is good. There are much bigger problems in life. But who's been maintianing the boiler?
I have sneakers that have lasted more than 8 years.
Master_Plvmber
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NRL
Citizen
Username: Nrl
Post Number: 453
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 5:17 pm: | |
Emmie, If I may ask, what insurance company do you have? I have Liberty Mutual, and they just confirmed they wont cover boiler replacement if mine ever goes. |
irishmex
Citizen
Username: Irishmex
Post Number: 23
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 5:25 pm: | |
Hi Master Plvmber,
The reason I'm taking it lightly is because the boiler is still working. If that changes, you know I'll have to make a very fast decision. I'm hoping it holds out for awhile.
The boiler had 1 cleaning by Mitchell S. about a year ago. Before that, the lady that lived in my house let everything go including the electric, plumbing, roof, windows, etc.
Question: Someone just told me I should find the boiler leak, tap it, thread it, and bolt it. Do plumbers still do this kind of work?
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Master Plvmber
Citizen
Username: Master_plvmber
Post Number: 173
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 5:47 pm: | |
I've never seen that done successfully. Very little surface area of the boiler sections is accessible anyway. I'd be interested to know if the leak is above or below the water line. Although I assume that by your stating that it's still working, it is above the water line.
I think you should get Weil-McLain out there to have a look.
Try this number:
Weil-McLain
619 River Drive Center 1
Elmwood Park, NJ 07407
TEL: 201/797-8550
FAX: 201/797-8552
Office Hours:
Monday through Friday
8 AM to 5 PM
Of course, converting to gas is certainly another option.
Master_Plvmber
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irishmex
Citizen
Username: Irishmex
Post Number: 24
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 5:57 pm: | |
Master P - the leak is below the water line at the base. I'm getting small amount of water on the floor and an increase in auto-water-feeder activity. It's just a matter of time.
Thanks for the Weil McLain info - I'll check it out. |
emmie
Citizen
Username: Emmie
Post Number: 240
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 7:08 pm: | |
NRL,
My friend and I both have Prudential. Good boilers should last longer than 15 years. They will cover certain malfunctions on younger boilers that cause them to crack. Prudential sent an engineering company out to verify the cause of the crack and, that in fact, it was it was related to failure of the low water cut off valve. Have no idea why it happend as I do have regular maintenance. |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2120
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 8:42 am: | |
I seem to recall some discussions on The Wall at www.heatinghelp.com about Weil-McLain Gold boilers. I believe there may have been some general quality issues with this line of boilers and contacting a Weil rep could well be worth your time. |
jeffl
Citizen
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 294
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 9:00 am: | |
I had a Utica boiler that cracked in 13 years. It was only fed with hot water. I had to add water to it routinely. I probably got a bum boiler in the first place. Just replaced it. My insurance company, Chubb, wouldn't give me any money. |
Master Plvmber
Citizen
Username: Master_plvmber
Post Number: 174
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 3:55 pm: | |
Utica never had a good reputation.
Master_Plvmber
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millie amoresano
Citizen
Username: Millieamoresano
Post Number: 34
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 4:14 pm: | |
Irishmex we converted to gas this past year we used Paul Ianiro Contractors located in Orange to sand fill our oil tank if you are going to convert give them a call their prices were reasonable and done in a timely manner. |
jeffl
Citizen
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 300
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 8:51 am: | |
Master Plumber, a guy from PSE&G who installed my boiler actually preferred Utica over WM. I hope I didn't get sold a bill of goods. |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2131
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 9:02 am: | |
There are lots of Utica boilers in town. Properly installed and maintained, they should be good for 30+ years.
Some plumbers don't like Weil-McLains because they have rubber seals between boiler sections so you cannot use boiler cleaners containing any solvents. |
Master Plvmber
Citizen
Username: Master_plvmber
Post Number: 176
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 10:14 am: | |
I prefer just about anything to Weil-McLain for a variety of reasons.
As far as Utica goes, they've always been cheaper in price with a more limited warranty than most other manufacturers.
Master_Plvmber
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tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2132
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 10:33 am: | |
What are the reasons? I have a 6 year old Weil-McLain and it has been trouble-free following the initial thorough skimming.
What is your preferred brand? |
Master Plvmber
Citizen
Username: Master_plvmber
Post Number: 177
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 11:03 am: | |
During WWII, Weil-McLain started selling hot water boilers as steam boilers. They just changed the controls.
Brands like Peerless and Burnham have a large internal steam chest to separate water from steam before it travels out to the system.
Hot water and steam bolers can be used interchangeably but there is a definite and significant benefit to using a boiler designed for steam on a steam system.
That's why a Weil-McLain boiler needs larger diameter header piping than all other manufacturers. As a result, their installation should cost more. In many cases, plumbers install them with the typical smaller-size piping, to remain competitive, with poor results.
I can go on and on, Tjohn, with reasons why I prefer other brands to WM.
Weil-McLain is not a bad boiler. It has its good points. For steam, I prefer other brands.
I fully expect that your reply will be rife with references as to how your Weil-McLain boiler has changed your life but that's my opinion and it's based on experience and simple verifiable facts.
Master_Plvmber
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tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2133
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 11:20 am: | |
MP,
You read between the lines too much. I constantly hear of preferences for one boiler brand or another, but it is hard to find out why. I don't have any secondary agenda.
From what I have seen on an amateur basis, proper installation is more important than brand.
As far as installation cost, I can't believe that using a single 3" header should cost a huge amount more than twin 2 1/2" headers.
As far as boiler design, Dan Hollohan says that all boilers have a small steam chest now and that the near-boiler piping is critical for producing dry steam.
On The Wall at www.heatinghelp.com, I see the very nice work some plumbers do and I would think that a plumber can still be cost competitive and do a good job on the near-boiler piping.
Also, per Richard O'Connor, places like Palmer Plumbing Supply will pre-cut the near boiler piping if necessary and that reduces some of the installation difficulty.
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Master Plvmber
Citizen
Username: Master_plvmber
Post Number: 178
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 11:45 am: | |
Proper installation is certainly more important than brand.
For Weil-McLain, only the LGB series of steam boilers has anything resembling a decent steam chest and that's a commercial unit. Way too big for residential use.
As for pipe size, with Burnham's internal steam-separating capabilities, their residential boilers can be piped entirely with 2 inch pipe. That is the largest size pipe that can be cut and threaded with typical, portable equipment.
2.5" and 3" pipe are fabricated with shop equipment and the costs soar compared to having an apprentice do it on site.
As you noted, done well, either installation should produce dry steam.
Master_Plvmber
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Richard O'Connor
Citizen
Username: Roconn
Post Number: 127
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 10:52 am: | |
Ok...My dad has a Weil .. hot water ... 30 years old and never a problem... Uncle had a Weil .. steam .. self installed same deal ... (its all in the install I think)
I put in a Utica a couple of years ago ... no problem ...
You say you have M.Supreme....even if you stick with oil get another company ... you should have seen how DIRTY my regularly maintained (by M.S.) oil boiler was when I yanked it out...the flueways (right?) were all litereally CLOGGED with soot ... no wonder I had so much in the basement...I fought for A YEAR with Mitchell about this, they finally adjusted my payments and bills to reflect the poor service .... but I wouldn't trust them as far as I can throw a boiler (it was a peerless with tankless hot water).
So .. GO WITH GAS ... particularly if you all ready have it in your house ... this would be a bad time of year to get PSE$G to do the install of new lines, but if you have gas this is definately the time to go to the cleaner safer fuel.
I got my tank de-commissioned (west orange, I don't know if that's an option in maplewood) and so its still in the front yard, although its now full of sand. All officially done and environmentally correct. That process cost 1200 and was recommended by the guy who did it as being MUCH less likely to expose me to extensive digging. (He opioned that if they dug out the old tank and found even the SLIGHTEST oil, then I would have to do an environmental cleanup...where as if after interior inspection the old tank was found 'leakless' then the job would be done.)
Burnham (going on) has the best recommendation from what I've read on new boilers ... I put in the Utica because it was what was spec'd in an original calculated estimate and I figured if a plumber I knew would put it in, then I was safe with it. (and yes, it was cheaper which was a factor) I can say I haven't had any issues with it at all and it provides amazing heat.
And yes, when I installed my boiler (it did take many trips though) I was able to get Palmer to cut and thread the pipes in the lenghths I needed. They were VERY nice, but I also bought the boiler there and asked beforehand if they would help on that part of the job.
BUT before you do this yourself (and it is possible) I have (since you all seem to read Dan Holohan) HEREDITARY STEAM HEADDEDNESS ... both my grandfathers were/are "Dead Men".
Not actually "KNOWING" what I was doing I managed to do my install 'dead-on-correct' in terms of the Dimension A & B etc. This is NOT TO SAY it was perfect, gateway gave me a couple of changes that need to be made ... (thanx and I did do the main vents..water line more stable)
ALSO .. if you're doing a conversion to gas, and don't all ready have gas in the house, you CAN'T do it on your own, as PSE&G won't turn on the gas without KNOWING that a plumber did the gas line install (or appliance install) ... This would be the reason I paid to have the hot water heater installed. (I know I could have done it but PSE&G got in my way). (Although it is nice to know that they are looking out for my best interestes in the process.)
But .. on the subject of boiler life....everything I read on all the manufacturers said that they should have an extensive life...no one warrants till they fail ... too many free replacements...but the longer a manufacturer's warranty is...the longer their product (in averages) lasts. Warranty period is generally the longest reasonable durration BEFORE MTBF (mean time between failure) ...
Hope this helps ...
Richard (ROC)
--Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic.--
--AIM: ROConn |
irishmex
Citizen
Username: Irishmex
Post Number: 25
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 3:59 pm: | |
Thanks to all for the info,
Changing from Mitchell S. has crossed my mind. I have a 1000 gallon tank insured with them (underground/front yard) so the though of more paperword does not thrill me.
Yes I do have gas in the house. The larger pipe before the meter would have to be used. No - I will not be doing this myself due to lack of time and general fear.
Keep in mind that the boiler is still working so I feel empowered. The leak comes out near the bottom in the form of steam vapor, condenses, then drips to the ground. The auto water feeder comes on once or twice a night and fills it back up. I'll take a picture so you can guess how much time I have.
IrishMex |
Richard O'Connor
Citizen
Username: Roconn
Post Number: 132
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2004 - 8:04 am: | |
Irish....drop me a private and I'll go into the Gorey details of my problems with Mitchell....The basic real sticking point was the winter before I converted (a MILD winter) I burned over 3500 gallons of oil and could only ever get the house 'warmish' (64).
Two different companies looked at the boiler and asked why I'd never had it cleaned or adjusted ... I didn't tell them that it was being done 2x a year by M.S. I just kept saying I'd only just bought the house.
If you all ready have gas, I know that my gas boiler is costing me much less money to run than the oil boiler did. . . and it really is about as clean burning as you can get ... also the efficiency is generally higher in gas boilers.
Lucky for you you are still getting heat from your boiler ...
When I converted I actually called and stopped automatic delivery and then used the oil boiler until the tank was dry. I had a hot water heater installed just before I figured I'd run out of oil so that I'd continue to have hot water and figured that as we were headed into the end of March the worst case is that I'd have only a month or so of absolutely needing heat with no boiler to produce it.
As dumb luck happens that winter was mild, the H2O heater went in, that night the tank ran dry and I only needed a couple of electric heaters a couple of times. All in all... lots of dumb luck on my side. . . . I finally installed the new boiler 6 months later ... I spent most of the summer doing the 'hire a plumber/do it myself' argument in my head.
Hope this helps ... suddenly wondering if you can get a plumber to be on 'standby' for the replacement when the tank finally goes dry? Hmmm
Richard (ROC)
--Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic.--
--AIM: ROConn |
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