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Message |
    
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 2565
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 1:30 am: |     |
R2boy, I think it's even more than double, or triple, it's a horrific shame!
IMHO, if there is any concern about what the cost of building the new police department will be, then the pool parking lot or the Verizon building would make more sense than the other two sites on the Avenue. I spoke to one of the owners of the Betty White site today. Both the purchase costs and time in litigation are going to be real big problems. Trust me, a fight with Green Acres will be a walk in the park in comparison...
Furthermore, if the TC really plans on having the public provide intelligent input into this process, they damn well better have all the comparative acquisition costs spelled out... Like no kidding!
OK Soda, I think you're in the right church, but the wrong pue...
First we should ask ourselves again why the rush, and why has the township committee limited our choices to only four sites? The past two committee's say they have checked everything else out in town. I don't agree.
Look at it this way, it would be nice to have the police station on the Avenue, but at what cost? Really, more patrol cars, and a few foot patrols would bring the same result. Meanwhile, if the TC is willing to condemn property for the new station, then they should have opened up locations throughout the whole town, not just Springfield Avenue. First lets forget about Nelsons unless you’re talking about better commuter parking for Maplewood residents.
Lets take Valley Street as an example. The Maplewood Country Club has a large parcel on Valley Street across from Girard Place. There are three little houses there, and if that site was picked it would displace less families than the Betty White location...
Then a little further south, on the corner of Valley Street and Millburn Avenue, they could condemn the Profeta family office building which would actually displace fewer businesses than either of the other two sites on Springfield Avenue!
As for your choice Soda, instead of taking out Nelsons or spending millions to condemn any of the other businesses and residents on the Avenue, why not just rehab the old police building, install an elevator to the court room on the second floor, build a women’s locker room, and hire Emil Maccario & son with their 60 years of satisfied customers? Hey, when it comes to waterproofing basements they never fail... 
BTW, the left over millions can be spent on first giving the police officers the good employment contract they deserve, the commuters more parking, and the rest of us a tax break!
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Ed May
Citizen
Username: Edmay
Post Number: 2008
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 4:09 pm: | |
Right On Art!
While your posts can be a bit acerbic and bold, speaking with you this afternoon, I can tell that you have really looked at all angles of the Police Station siting issue, and have some good ideas to offer.
As for me, I hope to speak at the Tuesday Night meeting, but may not be able to since I am teaching two small business classes at the adult school and can't get to Town Hall until around 10:30 PM.
In my opinion, as a small businessman, I cannot support any selection that uses imminent domain to take businesses (and residences) while there are still other options available on land the town already owns. Shame on the town for considering the Bette White / 2K4 Health site! Those businesses old and new serve our town well and exhibit the spirit of entrepreneurism. Shame on consideration of Maplewood Tire and nearby residences. I don't see the feasibility of doing anything at the existing Police HQ site. Verizon might be a good deal if we can get it cheap enough and use it for a variety of purposes. But my first choice is still the Hilton Branch Library site and enhance the DeHart Building into a state-of-the-art library facility.
Hopefully the TC will still be hearing public comment at 10:30 ish PM when I arrive, but if not I believe that the TC reads this board, even if they do not post often enough.
Ed May |
C Bataille
Citizen
Username: Nakaille
Post Number: 1684
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 6:26 pm: | |
The rumor mill says that Mr. Profeta owns a percentage of the office building next to the police station and that there may be some "hidden agenda" about getting rid of the old police building site in order to sell the two parcels as a package to a developer. This seemed not entirely implausible because I thought I recalled that the adjacent office building had been for sale recently. Am I wrong on that last point? I don't like being a rumor monger and have asked the person who passed it to me to research the real estate/tax records of said building before Tuesday's meeting.
I know nothing of Mr. Profeta's business dealings but would be concerned about the appearance of impropriety in such a situation. I know there are lots of plausible reasons to unload the current property. Are there any other concerns such as the rumor above that the citizenry should be aware of before we make a financial commitment?
I am disappointed that according to today's Ledger the First Aid/Pool/Firehouse location along Boyden Ave is not being given serious consideration. There are ways to resolve Green Acres concerns appropriately (and better than designating a parking lot, for goodness sake!)
Cathy |
Joan
Citizen
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 2616
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 6:34 pm: | |
Cathy:
The office building next door to the police station was sold within the past few years. I don't know anything about who bought the property. |
anon
Citizen
Username: Anon
Post Number: 1066
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 8:07 pm: | |
Did Art really say: "Then a little further south, on the corner of Valley Street and Millburn Avenue, they could condemn the Profeta family office building which would actually displace fewer businesses than either of the other two sites on Springfield Avenue!"
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marian
Citizen
Username: Marian
Post Number: 155
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 10:52 pm: | |
Cathy,
You say you don't want to be a rumor monger, but isn't that exactly what you're doing by saying "the rumor mill says..." ?
BTW, that's the first time I've heard such a rumor about Fred.
So before posting this I ran a search of his name in the Lexis property and tax assessor databases for New Jersey. The search revealed that he owns exactly one piece of property in town--the home he shares with his wife on Hickory Drive.
I think most of us agree that the town needs a new police station and that the current facility is inadequate. That said, I really hope we can keep the focus of this debate on finding the best possible site for our police officers and our residents. |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 2568
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 11:59 pm: | |
"I think most of us agree that the town needs a new police station and that the current facility is inadequate."
That's what we were all told, but I’m not convinced yet. The numbers have not been made available that will show us the real cost to build the new police station, or for that matter what the real cost is to rehab the present site.
I think it’s worth repeating; if the TC really plans on having the public provide intelligent input into this process on Tuesday night, they better have all the comparative acquisition costs spelled out for each site!
I prefer the pool site, the branch library, the present site of the police building, and the Verizon site, in that order....
Listen, it wasn’t my choice to put the present police station on the short list of four locations. But given the circumstances that it is, I’m going to take it seriously and give it my best shot...
FWIW, historic restoration is nothing new in this day and age. How much can an elevator, a women’s locker room, some waterproofing, and a coat of paint cost? Then lets take some of the left over money and take care of our officer's contract... |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 5020
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 4:32 am: | |
Keeping the police station at the present site and possibly purchasing the "Nelson's" building for expansion might make some sense. I believe Ken Petis has been in favor of keeping the police HQ at the present site.
However, it looks like the TC has focused in on SA since they feel that having the HQ there will be a magnet for development.
Putting the police station at Valley and Millburn doesn't make a lot of sense, since that is the very edge of town.
And how many office buildings is The Mayor involved with? Art has him owning a building on Valley and Millburn and Cathy has him owning part of the office building on Dunnel. |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 2570
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 8:04 am: | |
WRONG BOB! READ THE SIGN IN FRONT OF THE BUILDING... What Art said was, "they could condemn the Profeta family office building!"
I didn't say Fred owned the building, and my suggestion is not about Fred. It's about whether the location is better than the Betty White site.
As for keeping the police station at the present site, and possibly purchasing "Nelson's", it's about the numbers, and I did offer to support Ken's plan, ask him...
You are right that the TC has focused on SA, but the focus needs to be more about the costs of moving there, and the police.
The police department is not the best magnet for development on the Avenue, a major anchor drug store is... BTW, why don't you try to stay focused on the Avenue and not so much on me, Fred, Ken, and Cathy... |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 5023
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 9:05 am: | |
Art, what is The Mayors involvement at Valley and Millburn then, and which office building? |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 2571
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 9:44 am: | |
I really don't know what Fred's involvement is with that building Bob, and it has nothing to do with anything anyway....
BTW, it's the large building on the north east corner of Millburn Avenue, the one with the huge empty parking lot... |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 5024
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 10:10 am: | |
Art, this is all a little to Zen for me and much like playing "inside baseball". The building you are talking about is a "medical arts" building, and I don't know how occupied it is or not. My Doctor moved out a couple of years ago. |
mfpark
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 247
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 10:17 am: | |
That building is owned and operated by Paul V. Profeta Associates--no idea if it is related to the Mayor. But it is a very well maintained building (for what that is worth)--that large empty parking lot was recently repaved and restriped, so someone cares about this building. |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 2573
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 11:20 am: | |
Remember what the Police Chief said repeatedly for every location the TC has looked at so far; the patrol cars are already out on the street.
For me that means it really doesn't matter all that much where the police department is located. As I said before, a strong police presence is not necessarily where the station is, it's where the police cars are patrolling and the officers are walking the streets...
I'll be back later on, I'm going out to give the PD and Profeta buildings one more look... Anyone care to join me? |
Joan
Citizen
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 2619
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 4:49 pm: | |
The Profeta Family Office Building is owned and operated by Fred's brother. |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 2574
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 8:05 pm: | |
Enough already, lets try and get serious for a minute... There’s no need to take anyone's property, and certainly not the beautiful Profeta Building.
I took another look this afternoon at the four sites selected by our township committee. I was joined by another long term Maplewood resident, who like so many others in town share the serious concerns of condemning property to accomplish the goals of relocating our police department.
Can anyone still remember why we’re doing this? The whole idea about building a new police department for Maplewood was introduced by our two former Mayor's Vic Deluca and Jerry Ryan. Lets keep in mind that this decision will be enormously costly, and if not done right, we’ll be living with the consequences for a long time to come.
After careful consideration I've come to the conclusion that the powers that be not only went about this all wrong, their idea was flawed from the beginning. Why spend over $12 million to build new, when we can spend less than half if we rehab the present site?
I hope someone on the TC is reading this post, because if they plan to take a vote and set the site tomorrow night, and this will really be their final public meeting, they need to have all the answers for all the questions we plan to ask.
The most important information they need to supply will be to make public all the comparable costs at the four locations under consideration... |
bottomline
Citizen
Username: Bottomline
Post Number: 64
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 9:23 pm: | |
Art,
The architect's study was quite clear that refurbishing the existing building would not be less expensive than new construction. This is due to the need for significant expansion to meet the needs of the police and court, and to regulatory requirements for structural integrity, handicapped access and asbestos remediation. Flood control is also a design issue.
The Dunnel site option, which includes taking Nelson's garage, has many attractive features, but lower cost is not among them.
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ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 2575
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 12:53 am: | |
Thank you Bottomline, but I'm not buying the architect's study, no way, shape, or form...
First of all, to the best of my knowledge the costs to rehab the present police department haven't been made public. I'm also not aware of any report showing it was quite clear that refurbishing the existing building would be more expensive than new construction. Plus, what about the costs to purchase the property needed?
FWIW, the present police department building was built like a fortress with re-enforced steel and concrete. There is no way that refurbishing it can be more expensive than purchasing the Betty White site and then building a new building on it. We need to see the figures to support those findings...
BTW, what are all these alleged needs for “significant expansion” for the police and court? Are we increasing the size of the police force? I don’t think so… Are we expecting more criminals? If so, we can add more court days.
If in fact we need more space, I’ve recently seen the plans drawn to further expand the police building that were presented over 15 years ago. As for the regulatory requirements for structural integrity, handicapped access, and asbestos remediation, they don’t add up anywhere near the costs of a new building.
The flood control issue also needs to be defined in terms we can all understand and must be put in perspective of any likelihood of disrupting our emergency services in town. They must also show us the facts on how many times the police station has flooded since it was built, and what the chances of it happening in the future, especially after the resent improvements to the bridges and walls of the brook.
Hey, has anyone really compared the look of the proposed new building against the present one? Have we lost our mind? Why should we give up our historic values that made Maplewood what it is? Disrupting the integrity of our municipal plan for our Town Hall, Fire and Police Stations, Recreation Department, Park System, Train Station, Middle School, Country Club, and of course our Village Shopping Center, doesn’t make sense… It’s worth saving, which means it’s worth the fight if necessary!
One more thing, forget about taking Nelson's garage, there's no need for it. A one level deck over the existing police parking area will double the present amount for less money then purchasing Nelsons, and then what? Tear it down? Build a parking deck? It makes more sense to just leave it alone, collect the taxes, and find a better use the owner can buy into in the future. |
Ignatius J
Citizen
Username: Ignatius_j
Post Number: 174
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 7:25 am: | |
what are all these alleged needs for “significant expansion” for the police and court? Are we increasing the size of the police force? I don’t think so…
It's my understanding from the last meeting that it's not that they are expanding the size of the police force from this day forward, it's that the police force has expanded from the time the building was constructed. The current building was constructed when the force was half the size it is now and they just need more space and up to date facilities. |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 2576
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 8:51 am: | |
Ignatius, here’s the problem; these meetings have done more to confuse us than they have to enlighten us. Please take another look at what you just posted...
"It's my understanding from the last meeting that it's not that they are expanding the size of the police force from this day forward..."
Do you now believe the police will not expand from this day forward? If you do, you’re probably right!
“it's that the police force has expanded from the time the building was constructed.”
Do you now believe the building is the same size as it was from the time it was constructed? If you do, you’re definitely wrong!
“The current building was constructed when the force was half the size it is now and they just need more space and up to date facilities.”
Do you now believe that our police force was half the size it was in 1990? If you do, you’re definitely wrong again! Take another look at the building.... The entire left side of it was added in 1990.
Now do yourself a favor and go back and look at the building one more time. This time in vision the right side of the building also looking like the left side. If you can’t picture what that would look like, come to the meeting tonight and I’ll show you what was designed for the police department's future expansion should it become necessary. |
johnny
Citizen
Username: Johnny
Post Number: 850
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 9:22 am: | |
I find it hard to believe that refurbishing and expanding the existing building is not any cheaper than building an entire new building.
What about the cost of purchasing land, losing property tax revenue on the land, demolishing the existing structures, potential environmental liabilities on the new land, etc? |
Joan
Citizen
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 2622
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 5:02 pm: | |
Art:
Where would you put the police department while the present police station was being rebuilt if Nelson's or some other structure wasn't part of the package?
Johnny:
A significant cost involved in rehabing the existing police building is the requirement that regardless of when they were built, all police department buildings now have to meet seismic standards. It is very costly to accomplish this in a flood plain.
Ignatius 3:
The Police Station didn't suddenly get too small for our present police force. It has been too small for a long time now. People are just starting to take notice. To give you some perspecitive, when the Police Station was built, our police force was less than half its current size and there were no female officers then.
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johnny
Citizen
Username: Johnny
Post Number: 852
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 5:50 pm: | |
Joan-
So why haven't we had to bring our current police building up to code already if that is the case?
It seems like our building could be grandfathered under old codes. |
Joan
Citizen
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 2624
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 7:33 pm: | |
The new police building can't be grandfathered in. That is one of the main reasons why the town is finally moving to build a new police station building. |
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