| Author | Message | ||
     ffof Citizen Username: Ffof Post Number: 1893 Registered: 5-2001  |
holy moly- you are so quick to say I don't care about others...well wait, maybe that's right. Holy cow, we pay a whole damned lot to live where we live and guess what, 50% of our taxes already goes to gov't subsidizing god knows what, the good of our country that's what, so please, a little local control of our schools couldn't be asking for too much, no? And by the way, Newark already spends $14500 per student - $5000 more than MSO or Millburn and the schools are horrendous. What is your personal threshhold in that regard? Obviously it's not money that's going to fix Newark. Basically no one has really spelled out a good alternative, except the big whine aobut "oh we can't pay for schools locally, there must be state reform...blah blah blah" WHAT IS THE REFORM? I don't believe we can yell for state reform until spending is undercontrol. TO start, we can get a grip on the WASTED dollars spent on incarceration of petty drug possession charges (read overcrowded prisons) and WASTED dollars on AIDS costs which could be reeled in if there were a clean needle program. Then impose more taxes on ciggies, booze, gas. THis is just a start to my list. How can we say we want reform when NJ can't get their current budget right. Show me something positive in this regard, then we'll talk. | ||
| Tom Reingold Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 2030 Registered: 1-2003  |
ffof, for whatever it's worth, I wasn't claiming to know your stance. I was asking. I also said that money won't necessarily solve Newark's problems. I also said that we are facing a tough question and I don't know the answer. There's a lot we agree on. Please don't ascribe total disagreement when I really was showing partial disagreement or when I'm asking you what you think. Tom Reingold the prissy-pants There is nothing | ||
| lumpyhead Citizen Username: Lumpyhead Post Number: 663 Registered: 3-2002 |
If money won't solve the problem, what will? | ||
| ffof Citizen Username: Ffof Post Number: 1894 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tom- 2 posts ago just came off as being preachy (to me anyway) and it hit a hot button with me. Me, I'd rather yell and scream; you, you'd rather stay calm. Seems that way just reading the screen here at my desk anyway. But I believe whole heartedly in everything I've posted. Take it at face value. By asking "Are you taking the attitude of "I got me mine, so leave me alone"?" brings in a whole layer of "uh oh, be careful what ffof says" which is just insulting. | ||
| mikecappy Citizen Username: Mikecappy Post Number: 79 Registered: 10-2001 |
My solution: Find one illegal student per week. Expel him or her. Arrest parent for fraud. Arrest harboring resident for fraud. Problem should sort itself out in a week or two. Let's stop living so apathetically and do something about it. | ||
| clkelley Citizen Username: Clkelley Post Number: 91 Registered: 6-2002 |
ffof, I'm not whining about or yelling about anything. Nor am I saying we "must" do anything, just not close the door on any options. I guess I implied that throwing money at a problem could fix it; but really I don't even agree with that myself. It is worth considering, though, how more decentralized education might be beneficial to all. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but I'm not ready to assume that what we have right now is the only possible acceptable model for funding or running education. I agree totally with your ideas for increased taxes on cigarettes, alcohol, and gas!! Manipulating the economics of behavior is a very effective way to change behavior. Which is why I said what I did in the first place. Currently, the economics favor interlopers. | ||
| Tom Reingold Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 2031 Registered: 1-2003 |
ffof, in that case, I'm sorry. Clearly, I chose my words poorly. If you care to explain what you meant when you said no thanks to socialized education, I'd like to hear it, since I think we already have it. All residents must pay school taxes, and if you pull your kids out of public school, you don't get your school taxes back. That looks socialist to me. There, does that new wording offer you the respect you deserve? Tom Reingold the prissy-pants There is nothing | ||
| Dave Citizen Username: Dave Post Number: 6336 Registered: 4-1998  |
Mikecappy, I suggest you bring that recommendation before the board of education. Sounds like they would have to engage the police department and the police may be looking for things like probable cause. What are the options? How do we get that? It's a start but the details sound tough. | ||
| clkelley Citizen Username: Clkelley Post Number: 92 Registered: 6-2002 |
Just read what I posted a minute ago ... um, make that more centralized. | ||
| peteglider Citizen Username: Peteglider Post Number: 463 Registered: 8-2002 |
Mikecappy -- Unless that one student is not from an economically disadvantaged area and unless there are not racial overtones -- I doubt that the Board or the towns would take on such a risk. You are absolutely right -- I just can't imagine it happening. Pete | ||
| ffof Citizen Username: Ffof Post Number: 1895 Registered: 5-2001 |
For the record, something like 30 "illegals" were refused school entry at some board meeting last summer. I was not there nor do I have tapes, but perhaps a closer board watcher knows/has this info. As for "socialized" education. Okay, fine, it's socialized but let's say with local control. Socialized edu at the state level is taking away control, and I find that frightening at this point in time. | ||
| Tom Reingold Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 2032 Registered: 1-2003 |
I agree: losing local control is frightening. And so is the rate at which school taxes are rising. And so is the crunch that school budgets are having. Also frightening is that the first seems to be at odds with the second and third, and we're stuck in this place, only it could get a lot worse. Tom Reingold the prissy-pants There is nothing | ||
| ffof Citizen Username: Ffof Post Number: 1896 Registered: 5-2001 |
devil you know is better than the devil you don't know! Honestly, if something were done at the state level to stop spending on wasted programs (like prisons as noted above) and we introduced some use taxes, then, in my mind, we could talk about some type of reform or new funding formula or what have you. But until that starts to happen, I've yet to hear about a plan that would be better than what's in place. | ||
| sportsnut Citizen Username: Sportsnut Post Number: 899 Registered: 10-2001 |
Wasn't an increase in the gas tax recently defeated? Our gas prices are some of the lowest in the country. Also, does anyone know what percentage of lottery proceeds actually makes it into the education coffers? | ||
| sac Citizen Username: Sac Post Number: 935 Registered: 5-2001 |
Can we go back to the devil we had a few years ago ... when our income taxes were a little bit higher and our property taxes were a LOT lower (pre-Whitman)? Unfortunately, I know the answer to that question, but we had the same amount of local control then (perhaps more) and got a lot more education funding from the state. Even though my total tax burden might increase (being in a two-income family currently), I would be happier knowing that if unemployment hit, we would not be forced to move and also that we might have a chance of retiring here eventually. | ||
| bobk Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 4561 Registered: 5-2001 |
1. We don't really have local control, just local funding. The educrats in Trenton control just about everything and we need our own excessive number of educrats to feed them what they require in excrusciating detail. 2. Dave, a few years ago a local attorney went after parents of students who were removed for residency issues in civil court with the approval of the BOE. The program was discontinued. Why? 3. Sports, the gas tax increase was defeated. The service station lobby is very strong in Trenton, which is the main reason we don't have self-service gas stations. 4. A year or so ago someone posted that the only educational use the lottery funds are put to is to fund the testing programs. The rest of the money goes into general revenues at best, and some sticky pockets at worst. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1146 Registered: 6-2001 |
Tom Reingold, Whether the state raises "sin" and gas taxes or it raises the income tax, it is still the state collecting the tax and it will still be the state distributing the tax. Therefore, the risks to local control are exactly the same. All that is different is that sin and gas taxes are regressive: those with lower incomes will pay a larger share of their income in taxes than will those with higher incomes. It seems obvious to me that a tax system that doesn't drive families out of their homes and communities is better than one that does. It also seems obvious to me that a tax system that doesn't force every locality into unnecessary, often ugly and financially risky development is better than one than does. Furthermore, the present system actually fails to meet our legal obligation to provide every child in New Jersey -- whether disabled, poor or newly immigrant -- with access to an education worth the name. Almost any plan out there would be better for the majority of people in New Jersey, including the majority of residents in Maplewood, than the one in place. | ||
| Jurgnz Citizen Username: Jurgnz Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2004 |
Illegals Students or tax reform? If it's tax reform, let's start a new thread. Say, what about a flat tax? Especially one based upon consumption. | ||
| mtierney Citizen Username: Mtierney Post Number: 482 Registered: 3-2001 |
On the news last night there was a story about illegal students who arrive at a southern California school district by the bus loads! It was all documented on tape. The schools are overcrowded and the taxpayers are enraged, but there still is no solution. One resident noted that the BOE doesn't get involved because each kid brings $5400 aid from the state. California funds illegals who live in Mexico! Why? One of the reasons why this topic (always a very sore and heated one) goes no where is that the state law requires every child to receive an education - it doesn't address where the kids are domiciled. The BOEs hide behind the "it's the law" stand. As long as the "crime" of stealing an education from another community is considered an incidental issue, nothing will improve. Everytime this issue has been raised over the 25 years I know about, someone comes along and scares people with the "loss of local control" specter. Parents who can't afford to live here can still send the kids here - it's called tuition! | ||
| ffof Citizen Username: Ffof Post Number: 1897 Registered: 5-2001 |
harpo- "fails....to provide every child...with access to an education worth the name". Let's see, because of a new tax system to fund the schools, suddenly all those kids in Newark and Irvington are just gonna sit up and start paying attention in class. Harpo- what programs have you seen at Columbia High School? THe play? Parnassian productions? Band concerts? School in Action night? Have you been to a Lacrosse game or basketball game or maybe a football game? Do you know where Underhill Field is? Have you ever spoken with the president of the student council? Do you actually know anyone who attends our schools? You think any plan out there would be better for the majority of residents than the one in place? What the heck is your plan? It's still gonna cost us - just sliced up in a different package. Can you personally guarantee that with any one of your plans that all existing fantastic opportunities will still exist for MSO students? Access is there for everyone in this state. Education is there for the taking. But unfortunately, there will always be some who aren't going to cut it. THere will always be neighborhoods that good teachers are not going to want to teach in. No amount of tax loopdeloops will change this. I would not at his time want to risk all the good that we do have in our schools just because someone like you says with conviction that "anything is better than what we have". That's just blanket hogwash. |
