| Author | Message | ||
     harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1148 Registered: 6-2001 |
I just wanted to add that I agree with ffof about decriminalizing drugs and needles. I don't think property tax reform should be held hostage to those reforms going first. I'm not aware that there is any serious movement anymore for a pure flat tax, although there may be some modified flas tax proposals floating around. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 1927 Registered: 5-2001  |
who benefits from a flat tax? who suffers? (rhetorical question) | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1149 Registered: 6-2001 |
The majority of taxpayers in Maplewood don't have kids in the public schools and yet they are all being hit with rising education taxes that are not keyed to what they can afford or increases in their incomes but to the market value of their homes. It is simply not right that families who live here have to face the kinds of revaluations and tax hikes that we've recently seen that drive them out of their homes. I can't guarantee that M/SO will still have all its fantastic opportunities under a new tax system. But you can't guarantee that it will have them under the current tax system. Every day I read on MOL about people wringing their hands over programs on the chopping block. And every day I hear pressure being put on local politicians to curb tax rises and school spending. All the good the schools do is already at risk. It's a political issue, ffof, and you and I are on opposite sides of it. I won't accept a tax system that drives people out of their homes in Maplewood and has such a detrimental effect all across the state on people's quality of life. You seem to think the system works for you because you're virtuous or at least more virtuous than other people. I say it works for you but it depends on scamming and cheating and ruining the lives of other people just as good as the good people of Maplewood. Anyway, so long as you are calling for the state to increase "sin" and gas taxes, your rants are incoherent. Why are you looking for money if schools don't need it, except for those lazybones in Newark in Irvington? Why are you ranting against state control but with your hand out for state sin taxes? Or are you just against a hike in the income tax? I wasn't aiming to change your mind, ffof. But I will point out that your advocating raises in the state "sin" and gas taxes as a solution to our tax problems seems inconsistent with keeping state money out of our school system. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 853 Registered: 8-2003 |
It's equal, actually. Since we're concerned about fairness and equality (I know, I know, you want equality of outcomes), if I make 10 times more than you, I pay 10 times more taxes. I was so envious and appalled that Russia of all places instituted a flat tax before we did. Since compliance is easier and avoidance is tougher (depending on special interest deductions included in it), it is a boon to the Treasury and easier for the IRS to enforce. And by lowering things to a flat 17% rate or so -- you actually get more revenue to the Treasury. Last plan I saw had people/families at 45K or less pay no federal income tax. Less income is protected from taxation, and you get more revenue from that lower tax rate than you would by it being protected at the higher rate with all the deductions. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1150 Registered: 6-2001 |
tom, I recommend you do a little more research beyond accepting cjc's sunny view of it! | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 1928 Registered: 5-2001 |
The flat tax is a joke. Some people are going to pay a lot less -- guess who? Especially if it's a consumption-based one, as Jurgnz seems to like. So if I have to spend $250 a week on groceries, while somebody with no kids spends just $50, you get EXACTLY the opposite of the child deduction! And if John Q. with the 7-figure income puts his non-taxed non-consumed US money offshore, and spends his vacations in Europe and Asia... And if Mary W. who makes minimum wage and lives hand-to-mouth, every penny is taxed. Fair's fair, eh? | ||
| bobk Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 4566 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tom, a flat tax is a flat tax rate that applies to all income levels, say 10%. This is especially tough on lower income workers who also pay payroll taxes (social security) on their entire income. In another thread Tom Reingold posted some articles by Andrew Tobias. While he is a liberal, he makes a pretty convincing case that if you include payroll taxes we are pretty close to a flat tax as it is. Higher income workers in general have a lot more deductions than lower income workers. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 1929 Registered: 5-2001 |
and harpo, don't think for a nanosecond that I buy into any of these conservative shell games. You guys ought to know me better than that!  | ||
| lumpyhead Citizen Username: Lumpyhead Post Number: 664 Registered: 3-2002 |
What is in your picture Tom? | ||
| jet Citizen Username: Jet Post Number: 356 Registered: 7-2001 |
bobk, this is tread drift, but you seem to know something about gas stations . Why are there so many abandoned gas stations in NJ? | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10693 Registered: 10-2001  |
Harpo, My dog just came rushing in to my room. She was laughing so hard that she barfed on me. Sure I was startled but I finally calmed down and asked her what the heck was so funny. She brought me downstairs and pointed with her left front paw at your explanation of the flat tax. Soon I was laughing hysterically because even I can't believe that you are so completely clueless about how it works, and how off the numbers in your example are. Assuming a 10% tax rate (which I carefully derived from taxpayer A in your example) if Tom makes $100 a week, his tax is indeed $10. You on the other hand, I guess because you're a member of the inner circle of Tom Kean (SR), you get to pay 10% of your $1000 salary for a grand total of um $100. Now none of this takes into account that many of the previous flat tax proposals (Forbes, Armey, et al) have personal exemptions that would eliminate Tom's tax completely. In fact Armey's original plan called for personal exemptions of roughly $13k per adult and 5k per child. So a two parent two child family wouldn't pay taxes until their income hit $36k Edited to add Harpo's Original 1:29 post:: tom, Flat taxes mean that low income earners pay a larger proportion of their income than high income earners. Let's say you make $100 a week and I make $1,000. A flat tax says we both pay $10 a week in taxes. You pay 10 percent of your income in taxes. I pay one percent of my income in taxes. Oh -- and with flat taxes, you don't get any deductions. So if you have two kids and I have none, we still pay the same $10 apiece. Care for a Yumster Harpo? ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <- The Cafe Sbenois is pleased to announce that a fresh batch of Yumsters just arrived thanks to the pinpoint accuracy of the Sbenois Deer Howitzer. Stop in today and ask for one with cheese. | ||
| bobk Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 4567 Registered: 5-2001 |
First the Department of Enviornmental Protection is requiring that tanks older than a certain age have to be replaced and the soil tested and decontaminated if there has been an leakage. This is expensive and may not be economically viable for an independent station owner. In the past most gas stations made a fair amount of money on repair work. With more reliable cars, the proliferation of Jiffy Lube and clones and longer warrantties there is less of this work available to the local gast station, cutting income. More of the oil companies want to own their stations and be gas only. All of these things lead to abandoned stations. There may be other reasons as well. Most of this is from what I have read. I am not in the business. | ||
| jet Citizen Username: Jet Post Number: 357 Registered: 7-2001 |
Thanks Bob. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 857 Registered: 8-2003 |
So long as the rich aren't targeted for the evil people that they are, tom will not be happy. Fairness is when you get shafted, and tom doesn't. I would not advocate a flat sales tax, as it would encourage the underground economy. | ||
| Dave Citizen Username: Dave Post Number: 6340 Registered: 4-1998  |
I want a flat tax for corporations BECAUSE THEY ARE A NIGHTMARE. Or at least give me two people at the State tax information office who will give me the same answer to a question. Yeesh. OK, I feel better now. :-) | ||
| sportsnut Citizen Username: Sportsnut Post Number: 901 Registered: 10-2001 |
Why are corporations a nightmare? And I think what you all are really looking for is a flat gross receipts tax. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1152 Registered: 6-2001 |
sbenois, If you're so obsessed with me and are now copying all my unedited text, why not also post what I posted and deleted next, which thanked cjc and said I'd been errondously thinking of a poll tax? When I re-read cjc's post (and figured no one but you had seen the initital error) I thought the post I finally settled on was the one most germane to this thread. I plan to be posting for the next 72 hours straight, and changing around what I've already written frequently, so don't leave your screen. | ||
| Dave Citizen Username: Dave Post Number: 6341 Registered: 4-1998 |
A bit of a nightmare if you're new to it and I am. Each form leads to another in an endless loop. I'm at the end though. I think. Payroll stuff is wacky. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2201 Registered: 12-2001  |
Sbenois, If you will just admit that your are obsessed with Harpo, it will be much easier. It's not that different from AA. On a related tangent, yesterday I had 5 deer. I culled 4. After the culling, I had nine deer. Now if I can only cull my bank account in the same way. | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10694 Registered: 10-2001 |
Dearest Harpo, I'm not obsessed with you. I happened to see your "erroneous" post and I immediately began typing my response. I never saw any subsequent post thanking cjc in which you also mentioned a poll tax. I guess you're still not reading my posts. ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <- The Cafe Sbenois is pleased to announce that a fresh batch of Yumsters just arrived thanks to the pinpoint accuracy of the Sbenois Deer Howitzer. Stop in today and ask for one with cheese. |
