| Author | Message | ||
     sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10695 Registered: 10-2001  |
Dearest Tjohn, Okay, I admit it. I am obsessed Harpo. I find her to be such an overblown elitist that any chance to deflate her self-importance is worth taking. Regarding the deer, congratulations. If you've got any meat left over... ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <- The Cafe Sbenois is pleased to announce that a fresh batch of Yumsters just arrived thanks to the pinpoint accuracy of the Sbenois Deer Howitzer. Stop in today and ask for one with cheese. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1153 Registered: 6-2001 |
ffof, Actually I don't plan to be posting for the next 72 hours straight, so I'm going to add something to my previous post to you and see if this finally makes our political differences clear in a less contentious way. My view of public education as mandated by this state is that all children living in New Jersey, regardless of their parents' ability to pay or prepare them, are entitled to an education at public expense. In fact, we have laws that require them to be in school and, unlike private schools, we have to educate any kid of school age "as is". That being the case, it is irrelevant if they aren't ready for school when they arrive. It doesn't lessen the obligation to ensure that by the time they leave, they have the same skills as children who are ready when they arrive (innate differences in ability understood). It seems to me very obvious that children in areas where property values are low are in schools that are failing them. I think there is a direct relationship between the inadequate education they are receiving and the local poverty. It may be possible to develop programs that are adequate without spending more money on their education, but other than hope, I see no reason to believe that is the case. The law doesn't allow us to blame the victims of poor parenting and fail to educate them simply because more intensive teaching is expensive. We have a clearly spelled out obligation and I think it should paid for out of state resources, since it is a state mandate. You fear a loss of quality in M/SO schools if the funding formula is changed. I believe those fears can and will be addressed. And bear in mind they are just fears about the future, not certainties. As I posted earlier, not only does the property tax system disadvantage students who do not live in high property value neighborhoods, we know from history that it forces families to leave their homes and communities they can no longer afford, and drives towns to engage in development schemes that often destroy communities. I think all these are unacceptably high prices to pay for a system that is failing more residents of New Jersey than it is serving. I also don't think even the most affluent children are well served by being handed this as a legacy and their problem to solve. It isn't about character, or character assasination. It's just a discussion among people about values. I think tax reform absolutely can be done in a way that preserves what you value: A good local school system. I don't see any way that the present tax system will make the necessary progress toward educating all kids in the state and it will continue to drive people out of their homes and communities. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1154 Registered: 6-2001 |
sb, I think you're the one not reading mine. I never said I don't read any of them. Just not many or as few as possible. (Didn't you copy it?) In a contest for overblown sense of self-importance, I can't believe I'd win against you in any venue, but your obsession with me is, I admit, beginning to make me think I must be one potent cookie. And I think your definition of elitist must be different from mine, given what I post on MOL. Unless you mean my taste in humor and food. Then fine. Elitist it is. | ||
| lumpyhead Citizen Username: Lumpyhead Post Number: 665 Registered: 3-2002 |
and the eyes in her head see the world spinning round.... | ||
| ffof Citizen Username: Ffof Post Number: 1898 Registered: 5-2001  |
harpo- correct me if I'm wrong, but you assume that the schools can solve everything. I don't. Some of it comes from the culture of learning at home. The school system itself is not going to change this. Everyone is being offered a public education in NJ. It's a matter of what you do with it. Once again, case in point, Newark spends 50% more per student than MSO and the schools there are not producing the mounds of scholars that MSO does. Anyway, I offer sin and gas tax as a tool to supplement edu dollars (and road infrastructure dollars too) and to help keep our rising local costs from increasing obscenely. NJ has very low gas prices as compared to neighboring states. So if it's okay for them, what's the difference in NJ. That's all I can offer for now. Gotta go. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1157 Registered: 6-2001 |
I've always meant to tell you how much I like being reminded of that song and its 60s sensibility, when people questioned going along with the crowd. Seems to me the "fool" on the hill saw and comprehended the world for what it was, while those others . . . Day after day, alone on the hill, The man with the foolish grin is keeping perfectly still But nobody wants to know him, They can see that he's just a fool And he never gives an answer... But the fool on the hill, Sees the sun going down And the eyes in his head, See the world spinning around Well on his way, his head in a cloud, The man of a thousand voices, talking perfectly loud But nobody ever hears him, Or the sound he appears to make And he never seems to notice... But the fool on the hill, Sees the sun going down And the eyes in his head, See the world spinning around And nobody seems to like him, They can tell what he wants to do And he never shows his feelings, But the fool on the hill, Sees the sun going down And the eyes in his head, See the world spinning around  | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10697 Registered: 10-2001 |
Ugh, Harpo quoting the Beatles. That's a low blow. ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <- The Cafe Sbenois is pleased to announce that a fresh batch of Yumsters just arrived thanks to the pinpoint accuracy of the Sbenois Deer Howitzer. Stop in today and ask for one with cheese. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 1931 Registered: 5-2001  |
It's the Supreme Court, and the picture on the wall is GWB with a bozo nose. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1158 Registered: 6-2001 |
ffof, I will have to correct you: I don't assume schools can solve "everything." But it looks like you and I have a very different view of the meaning of education. But whatever our differences or ideas, the fact is that both you and I have pay for what the law says constitutes an adequate public education system, or else change the law. I expect education to ovecome the limits of your parenting as well as the parenting in Newark. Hope you don't take that as an insult. No parent is all that any child needs to succeed in the world, and it isn't just because you may not know how to teach your kids computer programming. The word "education" means "to lead from darkness," and that is the point of any education, for anybody. Everybody needs an education. Everyone is born into limited circumstances, even if those limits are different in kind. We insist on education for everyone because we want every child to have a shot at a fulfilling life, and you simply cannot tell by looking at maps or address books which children are more worthy or likely to succeed than others. And you sure as hell can't tell by looking at or listening to their parents! We've committed ourselves in America to making education available to all children because culturally, as a nation and a state, we decided we don't want to entrench privilege and we don't want to entrench ignorance. It's cruel to too many children and most people agree it makes for a rotten society. We may have to spend 150 percent more in Newark or Camden than we do in M/SO to make up for limitations children have when they arrive at school in those other NJ towns. You sound like you think the notion of mounds of scholars from Newark is laughable or hopeless. It's no different when it comes to physically handicapped students. You are not allowed to warehouse them. They are American citizens and residents of the state, just like the rest of us. They pay taxes. They have rights. If you object to the project of using education to promote equality, you can try changing the NJ Constitution and abolish public education, or make it available only to children whose parents meet certain qualifications. Otherwise, you, like the rest of us, have a contractual obligation to come up with the means to pay the bill. This is one of the richest states in one of the richest countries in history. We can do better. Neighboring states also fund their schools from the income tax. If it's OK for them, why not NJ? And as long as you keep telling us that the way to keep our obscene local taxes from rising is to get the state to collect bigger sin and gas taxes, you are going to have explain why taking any of that state money money won't compromise our local independence. You also need to explain why all that state money from consumption taxes should go to us instead of lower income communities, where a great deal, if not most of it will be collected. You've already indicated spending a penny more there makes no sense to you. Are you saying any revenues raised by the state for the schools should be spent on suburban districts alone because our kids are educable but theirs are not? If you say some should be given to urban districts, why? | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2204 Registered: 12-2001  |
Harpo, At a time when state and federal governments are running record deficits, where will all of the money required to overcome environmental factors in education come from. You say that the law requires an adequate education for all children. That may well be, but that is a law that cannot be enforced beyond a certain point. The courts may so rule, but the ruling will be honored in word and ignored in practice. The state courts, unlike the federal government have limited leverage. | ||
| lumpyhead Citizen Username: Lumpyhead Post Number: 666 Registered: 3-2002  |
Thanks Tom. I got the hang of it. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1159 Registered: 6-2001 |
tjohn, I don't think I need to point out to you why we have those record deficits. It wasn't acts of nature or sudden impoverishment of everybody in Peapack. I agree with ffof that a lot of money that could be spent changing the conditions outside of schools that negatively affect children's ability to learn inside the classroom is being wasted on idiotic moralistic, almost vengeful government programs that actually create more obstacles to kids developing productive aspirations. (Sorry for that heavyweight sentence, but I think we're talking about the same stuff.) There is certainly some truth to saying that sending money into districts where street and home environments work against their educations means that money has less impact than it would if conditions were better. All that said, please note that with the present property tax structure, we are doomed to keep shuffling around money, even new money, solely within the current set up. Meaning, any new tax money we raise will either be dedicated straight to classrooms (with no remediation of the external negative factors) or it will be funneled into "property tax relief" -- meaning that we will collect sin and gas tax money from lower income people and give it to people with the biggest property tax bills! You have to dismantle this funding system and fund education writ large, not just schools, from state revenues. Yes, people would have to rethink. That's education too. It doesn't stop when we leave school. As for your second point, it seems to me you shortchange teachers. But even taking your point, I can only appeal to parents to ask themselves what kind of a situation they are creating for their children to live in as adults. Segregation is over. The law is never going back in that direction. And even beyond issues of race, your children are not served by maintaining large pockets of urban poverty as part of their social space. (The current property tax system promotes urban decay and disinvestment.) You have to be part of a majority that creates something different, for their sakes. (I'll be dead.) It's a massive project that people have passed the buck about too long. There are kids all over this state with the brains and drive to excel. It's not enough to say to disadvantaged or any children "It's up to you to figure all this out and create your own educational achievement." Teachers also have to motivate and guide many students, rich and poor, white and black. Not every kid is self-starter or catches on right away. As adults and teachers, we have to be enthusiastic about this project. I understand a parent's natural tendency to favor his or her own children. But don't expect me to favor your kids over the ones in Camden. I refuse to make "perfect results" the enemy of better in this regard. In truth, for all the taxes I pay to fund education for kids in this town, none of whom are my own, most of those kids -- and I mean most of them -- will not set the world on fire, and quite a chunk of them will end up pretty unproductive for much of their adult lives. And I ain't talking about just the lowest income ones! You expect me to pay for a system here that necessarily delivers imperfect results. Don't ask me to also watch my neighbors forced to leave or the charm of the town sacrificed to avoidable development. I was thinking after I posted last that the only person I know who was born in Newark, got his education in Newark and still lives in Newark now teaches in Princeton. And his wife teaches school in Newark. The notion that somehow mounds of scholars and responsible people aren't ever coming out of Newark, while CHS grads are a surefire investment doesn't pan out in the real world. There's plenty of money in New Jersey to support kids into growing into possibly happy adults. That's not going to happen if we start out with selfishness as our guiding premise. Then you might as well throw all the tax money out the window. Or spend it on deer hunts and other projects equally destructive of inherited public goods. zzzzzzz. Have a nice weekend. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2205 Registered: 12-2001 |
Harpo, "There's plenty of money in New Jersey to support kids into growing into possibly happy adults. That's not going to happen if we start out with selfishness as our guiding premise." How much tax money do you think I should be paying? "You have to be part of a majority that creates something different, for their sakes. (I'll be dead.)" OK Mom, I give up. How old do you think I am? "I don't think I need to point out to you why we have those record deficits. It wasn't acts of nature or sudden impoverishment of everybody in Peapack." The deficits exist because the voters want more government services than they are willing to fund. Any politician who tries to raise taxes risks near certain political death. You can blame Bush for making it worse, but he didn't invent deficits. | ||
| ffof Citizen Username: Ffof Post Number: 1900 Registered: 5-2001 |
"Neighboring states also fund their schools from the income tax" Which ones and why are they better? "The notion that somehow mounds of scholars and responsible people aren't ever coming out of Newark, while CHS grads are a surefire investment doesn't pan out in the real world." I know this is not my notion, I hope you didn't mean to twist my words. Your preachiness is offensive, as if no one cares for anyone but themselves. No one has said, hey we don't care. THere's a finite amount of money. THere have been government directives put in place like NLCB and state testing and foreign language directives and $ for sp. ed. And there's just good old teaching. And there are administrative costs. Districts "rich" and "poor" all across the state comply with these. And the state currently supplements "poorer" communities. Fine. So, how high is up? Can an income tax versus property tax solve across-the-state budget problems? As things currently stand, I say no, but the burden of proof seems to me should rest with those who want to change it thusly. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1161 Registered: 6-2001 |
tjohn, How much tax money do I think you should be paying? How much do YOU think you should be paying? On what basis and to achieve what purpose? I support a progressive tax system and a system of public education. As certain as death, you and I are going to have to pay something, and I think we should pay on the basis of what we are earning, computed annually, plus whatever deductions you need, not be hit annually with a fixed charge that does not take into account our ability to pay, and which leaves us no choice other than uprooting our families if we can't afford the tax. What does it cost to educate all the children in New Jersey who enter the public school system each year? Obviously it can't be fixed into a single number, but it is certainly going to cost more than it used to for three irreversible reasons: 1) It is no longer possible to recruit quality teachers for the kinds of low wages women used to accept when they were barred from entering other professions 2) Nearly 100 percent of parents today insist that their local public school prepare their children for college and they will not tolerate high drop out rates. (America's public schools were not created to do this.) 3) Both residential and public school desegregation has necessitated retooling classroom instruction fundamentally, and this is an onging process driven by an ongoing dialogue. I don't think local property taxpayers can afford to shoulder the full costs of these enormous statewide social changes and still meet requirement #2. That is painfully obvious in very distressed commununities, and it becoming increasingly obvious to many people in Maplewood and South Orange. There will of course be an attempt to resegregate the schools and to demonize teachers in attempt to pay them less, but as long as the majority wants #2, it is going to be next to impossible to get education on the chaep. I don't think it is possible for Maplewood and South Orange to find the new tax money in commercial development. I don't think people in Peapack are going to be sending you and I "special aid" to help out with our taxes. But I do think people in Peapack have the same obligation as you and I do to pay for a quality education system in New Jersey. That's why I favor moving to a state tax system of funding education in the state. There are a variety of proposals out there. How old do I think you are? I think you're an adult. I'm talking about preparing for the future of people who are children now, not us. As for the deficits, I disagree with you significantly. With a gang of thieves in the statehouse and the White House, it's not surprising the money disappeared, to a very great extent because of tax breaks to the wealthy and corporations (who are now outsourcing those promised jobs abroad). The extent to which the voters were lied to is an unfolding story, and they are getting only a small amount of help from the press. Given the understanable tendency of most Americans to want to like their country and believe in the system, and their distrust of the media, shrewd and determined people who get control of the tax system can give away billion dollar surpluses to themselves and their friends very quickly and continue to divert tax money promised for services into their own enrichment schemes. Sophisticated people in the public say "oh, that's too simple an explanation, that they're just greedy crooks," but they might think again. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2208 Registered: 12-2001 |
Harpo, We live in a democracy. The government is off the people, by the people, for the people. To the extent that we have a gang of thieves in office, it is because we, the electorate, either believe the stuff politicians say or are too lazy to educate ourselves to the contrary. My optimistic view of the situation is that we are headed for a fall. After the fall will come needed changes. Hopefully the human damage isn't too bad. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1162 Registered: 6-2001 |
ffof, I don't know what the heck you meant when you wrote: "Newark spends 50% more per student than MSO and the schools there are not producing the mounds of scholars that MSO does." What do you mean by the "mounds of scholars" in the MSO schools? You may find my "preachiness" offensive, but I find this notion of judging the educability of students by their parents (and especially based on where their parents live) not only offensive but intellectually bogus (and I'd say that right to Abigail Thernstroms face). You seem to take it for granted that I should be charged increasing local property taxes, regardless of my ability to pay, without your having to answer questions like: "What kind of parents are these around here? What kind of nonsense do they feed into their kids heads about other people? Why should I get a tax hike to pay for more or better teachers in their schools? Best I can tell they're only interested in churning out pop entertainers." Offensive? You bet. I agree with you, ffof, that people where we live post the reval have reached "tax saturation." But that is far from the same as saying there is a "finite" amount of money. If you want to hold on to all the good things you like about the local schools, you are going to have to look outside our neighborhood to get it -- and I don't mean by re-valing the Hilton district. We're going to very quickly reach tax saturation there (if we already haven't). We're going to have to look outside of Maplewood and South Orange. Begging for state aid every year doesn't work. Obviously there is more money to solve education problems across the state using an income (or wealth and corporate) tax than a local property tax. I think it is so obvious that I have no idea what you mean by asking for proof. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2209 Registered: 12-2001 |
Harpo, What's the price tag. Assume that education was funded at current levels entirely by the state income tax. Assume I am paying $5000 in school tax a year. Will my income tax go up by more or less that $5000? | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1163 Registered: 6-2001 |
tjohn, I agree with your last graph, but think the first is simplistic. People in this country are not educated to be deeply skeptical of their government (only superficially cynical about it) nor are they given the tools in education to understand economics, taxation or even democracy itself, which is more than just voting or a ringing phrase from the constitution. To take one small example: If you remember the S&L frauds of 15 years ago, you can see how quickly people can steal, bust out and blow billions of dollars with government assistance. You would think we would have written laws to ensure such fraud doesn't happen again. But the government doesn't write fraud laws that can be used against its own. Is any government official from the S&L fraud sitting in jail? Will any government official do time for Enron? And those are near petty crimes compared to blowing the surplus and the mercernary motives behind a great deal of the decisionmaking in Iraq. And after an ordinary person with a family and a job gets clued in, what are they going to do? Sure they'll vote differently, but it takes a lot more than that to uproot what's working against ordinary people in this country. I dip into the education threads every now and then and see nan being excoriated for suggesting that a sudden drive to force new classroom methods into all the schools nationwide might have something to do with George Bush being from Texas and all the big textbook publishers being his political allies. But I too sense people are waking up. My husband's dentist, who has frequently expressed his admiration for George Bush, said to my husband the other day when he saw George Bush propose the mission to Mars, he realized he's just in this for his Houston cronies. It will still take more than a decapitation though. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1164 Registered: 6-2001 |
tjohn, To know the answer to that I'd not only have to know your income, I'd have to know your deductions. Plus, I couldn't project it forward longer than a year. If you are like me and sometimes have your annual income double or halve from what it was the year before, your annual tax bill would fluctuate significantly. There are a number of proposals floating around for revamping the property tax system for funding education. I constantly talk about shifting the burden to the income tax to keep it simple, but reform is far more likely to be a mix of taxes, plus a possible cap on property taxes. |
