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Message |
    
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 2847
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 5:42 pm: |     |
Cowboy: You left out the part about "welfare queens and Cadillacs". Otherwise it's pure, vintage Gipper.
And don't get me started about your abuse of a Warren Zevon lyric ...
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ML1
Citizen
Username: Ml1
Post Number: 1553
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 5:54 pm: | |
of course the original song was wonderfully tongue in cheek.
maybe the Cowboy has a similar sense of irony. |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2234
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 6:08 pm: | |
Cowboy,
You're just mean without the leavening of Reagan's charm. As the richest nation on earth, there is no excuse for the amount of poverty. I am by no means advocating handsout to the poor. I am very much in favor of having programs that give poor people additional chances to pull themselves out of poverty. My aid would be consistent with the saying, "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; give a man a fishing pole and he will eat for a lifetime."
I have a number of issues with your Republican blame the poor mantra.
1. If you're rich and make a mistake, you get second chance after second chance. If you're poor, you get no second chances.
2. Our economy has shifted and left a lot of people high and dry. Manufacturing jobs are gone forever, either to technology or to cheap overseas labor.
The government can start by investing in our national infrastructure (schools, roads, bridges) instead of giving tax money back to the rich. This will create good jobs for Americans. The infrastructure will benefit all of us. |
gozerbrown
Citizen
Username: Gozerbrown
Post Number: 345
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 6:29 pm: | |
There is some degree of truth to the fact that the the poor are as they are because of the choices they've made. However, people who are poor were likely reared by parents who were unable to prepare them for coping with the future properly. There is both a large-scale issue to poverty (such as jobs being sent offshore) as well as an individual issue (i.e. being raised by parents with substance abuse problems, or parents who cannot be there to nurture their children properly). If a child is brought up in a "dysfunctional" home, he may never see his parents go to work or hold the types of responsibilities that most of us do. Therefore, the child grows up lacking the knowledge and social skills necessary to navigate his own life.
Please don't think I am making excuses for them. I am sick of seeing my tax dollars going up in smoke on social programs as much as the next guy. Unfortunately, a lot of the things that might help alleviate poverty turn into political issues. For example, it's kind of bizarre how Medicaid will pay for abortions, but yet people get bent out of shape when any mention of abstinence incorporated into a sex ed curriculum is proposed.
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Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 2082
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 6:34 pm: | |
I think you misrepresent the objections to abstinance. It's a very good point to make to kids, but it is not an entire sex ed program, and the religious right would have you think we can convince all kids to abstain and thereby solve teen pregnancy, STD's etc. As problematic as it is, kids are going to have sex. Take that as a given and then figure out how to deal with it.
A friend told me she first had sex at age 16. She had gone to Catholic school all her life and was told that it's a sin. The experienced changed her view, and it turned into, "this can't possibly be a sin."
I was 18 my first time, but not because of morality but because I was an awkward kid who didn't have the social graces to win a girl's favor, so to speak.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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las
Citizen
Username: Las
Post Number: 10
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 6:53 pm: | |
Yeah, Tom, that sounds great. |
TomR
Citizen
Username: Tomr
Post Number: 108
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 7:06 pm: | |
gozer,
Where have you ever heard of "people get[ing] bent out of shape when any mention of abstinence incorporated into a sex ed curriculum is proposed."
I've read about some people who would rather that abstinence be the only sex ed presented, but have yet to hear of problems when its proposed that abstinence be included within a curiculum.
Did I just agree with Herr Reingold?
TomR. |
lumpynose
Citizen
Username: Lumpyhead
Post Number: 684
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 7:15 pm: | |
Tjohn- Everyone wants to teach a man to fish but sometimes they choose to have a baby, drop out of school and have someone else do the fishing. I understand that these "decisions" are arrived at by those unprepared and without any role model.
What is perplexing me is that it seems some people think the poor aren't responsible for their 'choices". It's almost as if people consider them somewhat retarded by their dysfunctional families. Boy if that was the case, we'd all be in deep trouble.
There are other options for the poor. How to get the message to them is another issue. Maybe MTV? |
redY67
Citizen
Username: Redy67
Post Number: 229
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 7:29 pm: | |
It is funny to me how people say the Church doesn't teach sex ed. I went to a Catholic High School and they taught us sex education and every type of birth control available, although they definitely concentrate on abstinence. |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2235
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 7:50 pm: | |
Lump,
Of course the right answer lies somewhere in between the Republican blame the poor mantra and an open-ended welfare system.
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Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 2088
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 11:14 pm: | |
I'm a pretty bad bleeding heart liberal, but it is true that the poor have a self-perpetuating culture. But saying so doesn't make it better, and it is incumbent on society to try to improve that culture and pull it out of its roots, with teaching the man to fish type stuff, to the extent that it helps, and I know there is a limit to that.
Furthermore, these observations are on a large scale. It is cruel to judge individuals unless you are without failings. We all have our failings. Your value as a human is not measured well by your wealth. Arrogance, however, does detract from your value. Compassion increases it.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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Ukealalio
Citizen
Username: Ukealalio
Post Number: 440
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 12:08 am: | |
Cowboy-Your lucky Warrens not here to defend himself against the abuse of his lyrics, he probably would have kicked your ass. If your gonna get, "creative", steal some skinhead groups song, they'd appreciate you. |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 2435
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 12:42 am: | |
"...it is incumbent on society to try to improve that culture, and I know there is a limit to that."
I will agree that compassion is a measure of ones value as a human being, but what is that limit Tom?
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Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 2092
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 9:46 am: | |
Excellent question, Art, and it's very difficult to give a good answer, especially if you want it to be a quantitative answer. I'm glad I'm not one who has to decide.
I'd say that if the gap between lower and upper income levels is increasing, it's time to increase programs that help people get a leg up. We're decreasing them now. I'd say that if that gap is increasing, it's not appropriate to give the super-rich tremendous tax breaks making them super richer.
I do not, however, believe that helping the poor should be our only priority. I don't agree with those who oppose things like a space program because the money should be spent on the poor first. The space program was never a big part of the budget. We need advancement in science and technology because business and everyone's livelihood are tied directly and indirectly. It is ultimately society's advance.
Rhetoric such as "the poor's problems are their problems" are both heartless and untrue.
But Bush's rhetoric is different. He says all the right things and then acts the opposite way by asking Congress to cut programs and things like unemployment. He claims his tax cuts help the little guy the most but the numbers say otherwise.
Jeez, this is awful thread drift. We ought to take this elsewhere.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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las
Citizen
Username: Las
Post Number: 13
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 10:43 am: | |
Yeah, Tom, that sounds great. |
campbell29
Citizen
Username: Campbell29
Post Number: 64
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 10:58 am: | |
Medicaid does not pay for abortions. If you're poor and want an abortion, the government won't finance it for you unless having the baby will kill you, you were raped, or a victim of incest.
As far as abstinence education goes - if we all lived in parental utopia and had obedient children who listened to every pearl of wisdom from our mouths- it would work wonders. Unfortunatly, at some point people tend to discover that sex is fun and no matter how many times a parent or teacher says "no", they're going to do it. Perhaps instead of just telling them not to do it, we should also incorporate information on how to be healthy. Since the government doesn't want women getting abortions, doesn't want to pay for welfare for children born to young parents, the best way to avoid either of those outcomes is to prevent the pregnancy in the first place.
BTW- what is it with the Republican's obsession with sexual behavior? They are intent on spending tax dollars on people's personal issues - like abstinence, marriage education and gay marriage. It seems a bit "peeping tom-ish"
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Cowboy
Citizen
Username: Cowboy
Post Number: 337
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 11:48 am: | |
Every region of this country is populated to one extent or another with people who believe that the ultimate responsibility for their lives lies not with them, but with government.
Alexander Tyler told us well over 150 years ago that no country could survive once its people have learned that they can go to the ballot box to vote themselves money out of the public treasury. These people exist in America, and they vote for Democrats.
I'm certainly not seeking to do away with all taxes and let each person fend for himself. But let's recognize that personal responsibility needs to be taken more seriously.
And Ukealalio, Warren Zevon couldn't kick my ass and neither can you. When George Harrison's beautiful and insightful "Any Road" loses to a witless drone like Justin Timberlake, surely the apocalypse is upon us.
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tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2239
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 11:53 am: | |
I'm sure glad that Republicans would never loot the treasury. |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 2437
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 12:20 pm: | |
Tom,
As usual, your reply is very fair minded.
I'm glad I'm not one who has to decide either. The truth is we all do what we do, hopefully what that is, is to at least show a little compassion. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 890
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 12:22 pm: | |
tjohn -- implied in 'voting themselves money' is people voting themselves money they didn't put in in the first place (ie: legalized theft from your neighbor rather than getting your own money back).
I didn't loot the Treasury. I got back a small part of what I put in there, and on a larger basis I didn't get money back so much as I won't have to send in as large a percentage going forward. |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2243
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 12:30 pm: | |
Their are those who believe we should help the less fortunate and there are Darwinists. I am happy to debate how to help the less fortunate. Simple giveaways are not the answer. Blaming the poor for their predicament and leaving them to wither on the vine is even less of an answer. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 891
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 12:37 pm: | |
I'm for assigning fault and blame where deserved. That doesn't necessarily mean that withering on the vine is the resultant policy.
Gee.....how moderate of me. |
Cowboy
Citizen
Username: Cowboy
Post Number: 344
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 12:40 pm: | |
So what do you suggest be done to prevent forth generation welfare families, tjohn?
Additional legislation is not always the answer. |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2245
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 12:40 pm: | |
Well then, I blame the child of a drug-addicted single mother in a lead poisoned house for very little. |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 2103
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 12:49 pm: | |
I learned that family traditions of relying on welfare are rarer than we think. Most people rely on it for short periods. Most people would rather earn their keep. What is your suggestion for addressing the abuses of the system? Hint: all systems are abused by a few, whether we're talking about entitlements, workplaces, taxes, purchases, or anything else.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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Cowboy
Citizen
Username: Cowboy
Post Number: 345
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 1:08 pm: | |
Gee Tom, you mean like illegal students in our schools, for example?
The problems we face might just be poor enforcement of the existing laws then.
Or do you guys simply wish to think that I am an evil racist or some such thing?
Think of me whatever you want, but I suggest that you open your mind to truth, instead of denying the problems. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 1951
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 1:31 pm: | |
So where does the child of the crack-addict sleep-all-day welfare mom learn these life lessons we consider so straightforward? It's pretty to easy to stand here in suburbia and talk about morals and responsibility, but children only know what they learn, and they only learn what they're taught. There's no built-in "get a second job" gene. The only thing your biology is going to do for you is a) get you pregnant; or b) make you want to get somebody else pregnant.
As for "...They have far too often become lazy and have become too dependent upon government programs and handouts", tell that to the mentally ill guy sleeping on a grate on 43rd street.
The problem is that sometimes circumstances screw things up for you, and before you know it your life is out of control. We're the richest nation in the history of the world and we ought to be generous enough to lend a hand to people who haven't had the same opportunities we've had. |
Cowboy
Citizen
Username: Cowboy
Post Number: 353
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 4:56 pm: | |
And that my friend tom is where charity comes in. It is not the role of government to create and regulate a myriad of social programs. If you donate money that's a good start. However, if you lack funds you might donate your time instead. Work with the homeless, (might I suggest INH locally). Collect cans of food for M.E.N.D. or contact any local charity and just ask what you might do to help.
This business of "sometimes circumstances screw things up for you, and before you know it your life is out of control," is a cop out. Take responsibility and when you witness others not doing that point it out to them that they can change. They only have to be willing to change.
And BTW regarding "the mentally ill guy sleeping on a grate on 43rd street." Why is he allowed to do that? Could it be that current laws are not being enforced?
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Unhinged
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 2754
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 4:58 pm: | |
http://www.secondharvest.org/ |
TomR
Citizen
Username: Tomr
Post Number: 118
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 5:09 pm: | |
Cowboy,
Read "Murder of a Shopping Lady" by Brian Kates (forward by Mario Cuomo).
Where was the victim's cop out?
TomR. |
Habanero2
Citizen
Username: Habanero2
Post Number: 23
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 8:52 pm: | |
I feel poor after paying these property taxes.
"You kids today have it easy. When I was a kid everything was HUGE. My dad was nearly four times bigger than me. You couldn't even see the tops of counters.... Then gradually everything became smaller until it was the manageable size it is today." |
Ukealalio
Citizen
Username: Ukealalio
Post Number: 442
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 1:07 am: | |
Cowboy-Nice to see your making this personal. I wouldn't waste my time (and thats wouldn't not couldn't), after reading your posts, it would be akin to child abuse.
George Harrison and Warren Zevon were great compassionate artists, I'm sure they would have loved you. |
chocoholic
Citizen
Username: Shrink
Post Number: 114
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 3:26 pm: | |
Why all this ire against the poor? I thought that welfare was moot. I mean there really aren't that many people on welfare ( except in NYC where if you are a Russian or Hispanic immigrant, its pretty easy to get) I'm trying to figure out why pedophile murders aren't garnering the same amount of outrage. |
Cowboy
Citizen
Username: Cowboy
Post Number: 361
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 4:20 pm: | |
While you struggle to garner about outrage, consider how much better things might be if we all took more responsibility for our actions.
And then explain why pedophile murderers don't seem to garner the same outrage as Bush does. |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2264
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 4:23 pm: | |
Oh, Cowboy, that's a toughie. "And then explain why pedophile murderers don't seem to garner the same outrage as Bush does. "
Perhaps because there is universal consensus that pedophiles should be locked away for a long time.
The only arguments are whether or not they should face execution and whether or not they can ever be rehabilitated.
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lumpynose
Citizen
Username: Lumpyhead
Post Number: 689
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 6:03 pm: | |
No welfare receipients in Newark, Camden, Irvington and East Orange? You've got to be kidding. |
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