| Author | Message | ||
     lumpyhead Citizen Username: Lumpyhead Post Number: 667 Registered: 3-2002  |
"People in this country are not educated to be deeply skeptical of their government (only superficially cynical about it) nor are they given the tools in education to understand economics, taxation or even democracy itself, which is more than just voting Who are these "people"? Are you one of them? | ||
| ffof Citizen Username: Ffof Post Number: 1903 Registered: 5-2001  |
I never said kids from Newark are not made to be scholars. I think you're pretending not to understand me just for argument's sake  My point is that the per student cost is 50% more than here in MSO but the Newark school system is considered to be anything but good. Do your own comparison if you want more details. And proof could start with an example of a state that successfully uses an income tax to fund public education. lumpy-good question. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2214 Registered: 12-2001  |
Harpo, It is not a question of educating people to be skeptical of their government. As democracy is of the people, by the people and for the people, it is the duty of every citizen to try to understand what the government is doing. This is not cynicism or skepticism. It is just right, just as you ought to have some understanding of what your stock broker is doing or your doctor. Maybe we need to educate people to the importance of understanding what our government is doing. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2215 Registered: 12-2001 |
Ffof, Please quit arguing with Harpo and just write a blank check payable to Newark schools. I am sure that if we only spend enough money, the Newark School District will be the equal of any in the state. You might be reduced to a diet of dried beans and water, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make. Seriously, Harpo is one of these idealists who believes that we just need to spend more money to solve our problems in education. Her kindred spirits are those who believe we can win the war on drugs and those who believe we could have prevailed in Vietnam but for the anti-war proterstors. | ||
| Tom Reingold Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 2042 Registered: 1-2003  |
I agree that we need major tax reform so that schools are funded primarily from income tax rather than property tax. But I do not favor capping property tax. That would be a swing too far in the other direction. That has proven to be a disaster, especially in Oregon. My cousin teachers in Eugene, OR. Towns have voted to raise taxes to fund the schools which are broke. But they are not allowed to. They raise bonds for building maintenance and upgrades which relieves the general school budget but this approach can only work so far, so they are out of money. The will of the people to pay for what they want is not adequate because of the state law that caps property taxes. I spoke with Deanne who owns Net Nomads a few months ago. Her opinion is that the people of NJ will soon get fed up enough to mandate a reform. She's sure it will happen. I very much hope she's right, but I'm a bit more cynical. I fear a lot of people are not educated enough about how government works and can't examine the issues or candidates enough to vote change in. Tom Reingold the prissy-pants There is nothing | ||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 380 Registered: 9-2003  |
I agree with Tom. I was pretty ignorant about school funding until I moved here, from Delaware. Now, parts of Delaware has their issues (for instance, the part of New Castle county where Yuppie NY-er/NJ-ers are most likely to live has schools they weren't, in the past, happy with). I think DE funds schools primarily by state income tax. Bonds were used for upgrades, and it was pretty hard for a Superintendent to slip any kind of foolishness through -- though they tried. Bonds were what kept the community close to the school, and its voice at the table. And, by example, our "old house" sold for $165K (starter range around the university) and our property taxes were $860.00 per year. The same house up here (which is about what we bought last year) costs $325K with property taxes of (now) about $7,000.00 per year. And in case anyone wonders why this transplant gets so crabby, my lovely employer gave me only a 10% COLA to move up here. I figure, all in, my cost of living has increased by at least 45% given the proportion of net income goes to housing. Private school in DE, by the way, is comparable to here but when your property taxes are so low you can readily afford it if you need/want it. I'm in the middle of taxes, so a lot of this is very much top of mind. Also, no sales tax in Delaware. I'm WAY worse off here. The only reason I'm here is corporate relocation, and as a middle aged person, with fewer stable career options where I used to live. Home. Think I'll hit dice.com for awhile...I don't think NJ will awake from this nightmare any too quickly. And now that I know that Newark spends half again as much as Maplewood does per pupil, I'm really wondering why we should be sanguine about the "guest student" issue. What the heck are they doing with the money? They should be turning out Rhodes scholars hand over fist even if they had to feed students 3 squares a day. Talk about a case for privatization... | ||
| fringe Citizen Username: Fringe Post Number: 291 Registered: 5-2001 |
The idea of state imposed property tax reform just around the corner has been the solace of those defending the SOMSD status quo for at least 5 years. And apparently remains so. But I notice Latz has dropped it from his patter this year and even "candidate for higher office" Huemer acknowledged at the BOE budget workshop Thursday that Gov Whitman with pants McGreevey has said he will veto such legislation if it reaches his desk this year. The reality is that most of the Tax Trauma towns are in Essex County - see hometown.aol.com/njfabian under Tax Trauma and whatever their problems, the suburban county senators see no value in shifting resources to this black hole. Its an easy vote for an Assemblyman, but I'll cover bets on its happening during McGreevy's term. How about a cup of hot chocolate Melidere? JTL | ||
| Tom Reingold Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 2043 Registered: 1-2003 |
I dunno, cynicalgirl. We agree, yet we come to a different conclusion, although I realize that you are not necessarily in favor of privatization. Wait, when you say privatization, do you mean giving parents the option to opt out, with, say, vouchers? Or are you talking about making school districts into businesses with the profit motive? Tom Reingold the prissy-pants There is nothing | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1166 Registered: 6-2001 |
lumpyhead, Yes. Of course I am. If you got a better education than I did, and I'm not saying you didn't, you are fortunate. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1167 Registered: 6-2001 |
ffof, I'm not interested in argument for argument's sake. The cost of delivering educational services in Newark is larger than the cost of delivering educational services in M/SO, but it's also true that the cost of delivering educational services is greater --- much greater -- in rural districts in this state as it is at M/SO. Some time ago the Star Ledger broke down cost-per-pupil spending across the state, and some of the highest costs (within a few dollars of Newark) were in areas where schools were consolidate and the kids had be be bussed in to central buildings from long distances. So those districts were spending the bulk of their per pupil cost on transportation, not instruction. I think New York State does as well in education as New Jersey and it doesn't have a property tax system. In fact, by citing Newark's schools as bad, you are proving that OUR way of funding schools in New Jersey isn't working. I don't disagree it's working for your family and probably a few hundred other families in M/SO and some affluent places. But it's not working for the majority of families in New Jersey, with or without kids in school. I think we could greatily improve upon New York's funding system and learn from its errors. But I have never heard anybody say that they never dreamed of living in Westchester or other NY suburbs because New Jersey's suburban schools are so much better. I don't see New Jersey being held up as a singular model of either school achievement or tax wisdom. But I have seen lots of families being forced out of their homes because of ever rising property taxes, New Jersey's being the highest in the nation. My question to you: Wouldn't Newark's schools be good if they had the programs you admire at Columbia High School? The plays? Parnassian productions? Band concerts? School in Action night? Facilities like Underhill Field? How do you justify not giving Newark's students what's available to M/SO students? The state has the money. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1168 Registered: 6-2001 |
tjohn, Do you think all children in New Jersey are getting an adqueate education in the schools they attend? If not, how do you plan to remedy that without spending more money? | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1169 Registered: 6-2001 |
Cynicalgirl, Thank you for your input. Are all schools in Delaware far worse than the schools in M/SO for being funded by a state income tax? You seem to feel that there were strong community ties to the schools. Do you think that was an illusion? Obviously your property tax burden was much, much lower and your overall tax burden was lower. Would you recommend that NJ switch to another way of funding its schools? Do you think people would be better off? As for Newark currently spending half again as much as Maplewood, there are real reasons why delivering education services are higher in Newark: making up for years of neglect, providing security for students and teachers, improving the physical infrastructure, retooling the schools to teach a different population from the one they were designed to teach, etc. But you are absolutely on the right logic train about the "guest student" issue and privitazation. If we can demonize students and pretend they aren't up to receiving an education at taxpayer's expense, then it becomes very important to comb the enrollment lists for kids we might be able to push back into other districts and if that fails, eliminate the public school system instead. An increasing number of conservatives believe that the children of people with the kinds of incomes found in M/SO should not be receiving an education at taxpayer expense, but rather than attack the middle class subsidy they are attacking the subsidy for the poorest families, hoping the end result will be the same. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1170 Registered: 6-2001 |
Tom Reingold, I wasn't endorsing a cap on property taxes, just reporting that was on the table. I suspect a cap on education spending will also get on the table. I don't know what kind of property tax reform will win out in the end, but I agree with Deanne about the certainty of it happening. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1171 Registered: 6-2001 |
fringe, I seem to be the biggest advocate of property tax reform in this thread and my advocacy of it is first and foremost because I think it is unfair to middle class homeowners in New Jersey. (Check out cynicalgirl's post.) It hasn't nothing to do with wanting to maintain the status quo in the local schools. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2223 Registered: 12-2001 |
Harpo, I am saying that you can spend a virtually unlimited amount of money on Newark schools and still fall far short of, say, Millburn. There is another ingredient that money cannot buy. This ingredient is illustrated in the Edgar James Olmos movie, Stand and Deliver, in which a truly remarkable teacher delivers remarkable results with some poor students. I don't know how to buy this ingredient. Teachers such as the one played by Olmos are as rare as hen's teeth. You can't expect a teacher to sacrifice health and family as this teacher did. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1172 Registered: 6-2001 |
tjohn, My understanding is that teachers in this area are applying to teach in Millburn because the pay is higher. Even among those who believe Millburn's schools are better than others, I have never heard anybody say that the reason is that Millburn's teachers are more dedicated and creative than those here or in Newark. And there are plenty of teachers already in Newark who are turning out kids prepared for college despite the obstacles their kids confront each day just walking to school and because of family poverty. A lot of those obstacles could be removed by spending money. They have been identified. The state has no right to throw up its hands and refuse to spend that money on the basis of a bogus argument that there is no end in sight or that at the end of the day, the kids might not look like the kids in a movie. I don't hear anybody arguing we should start slashing per pupil spending at M/SO because money can't buy that one ingredient that makes for educational success. In fact, I suggest adding a course to the mandatory M/SO curriculum, no matter what it costs: "Why You Shouldn't Believe What You See in Hollywood Movies." That said, I'm glad you recognize that creative teaching is essential to educational success. There is a movement afoot to kill teaching creativity in the classroom, right here. | ||
| Ed May Citizen Username: Edmay Post Number: 1949 Registered: 9-2001  |
One hundred times ten thousand dollars equals one million dollars.One hundred times ten thousand dollars equals one million dollars.One hundred times ten thousand dollars equals one million dollars.One hundred times ten thousand dollars equals one million dollars.One hundred times ten thousand dollars equals one million dollars.One hundred times ten thousand dollars equals one million dollars.One hundred times ten thousand dollars equals one million dollars.One hundred times ten thousand dollars equals one million dollars.One hundred times ten thousand dollars equals one million dollars.One hundred times ten thousand dollars equals one million dollars. Ed May | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1173 Registered: 6-2001 |
Anybody interested in the non-mythological view of the reasons behind Escalante's success with math students in an impoverished school can catch up with the facts here: http://reason.com/0207/fe.jj.stand.shtml | ||
| jet Citizen Username: Jet Post Number: 360 Registered: 7-2001 |
Newark has $200mm from the airport, they what to spend it on a arena for a hockey team. Basket case, putting anymore state money into Newark schools is a waste. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1175 Registered: 6-2001 |
Does anyone understand Ed's point? |
