| Author |
Message |
    
ReallyTrying
Citizen
Username: Reallytrying
Post Number: 298
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 2:05 pm: |     |
Harpo, you make some very good points. Too many people are willing to engage in speculative fear-mongering. (I always figure such people just have too much time on their hands.) Lump, I agree, and hope that a rep of the MPD will speak out. I'll listen to someone who knows whereof he speaks. |
harpo
Citizen
Username: Harpo
Post Number: 1371
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 3:35 pm: | |
Lumpynose,
We agree. My first post in this thread was "ask the police." If an officer comes onto MOL, however, I'll only believe him if he identifies himself or herself by name. I also hope he or she can clarify whether the incident involving the CHS student or the MMS student was gang-related and if so, which gang are we looking at?
Mem,
I see it as issue of risk management -- and credibility. I'm not going to criticize people for telling everybody they believe a risk is greater than is apparent to most informed people. But I'm not going to believe them if they can't provide evidence and instead accuse people who ask for it of increasing the risk. Risk management doesn't work that way. Also, I'm dead set against making elected politicians, on the TC or the BOE, first recipients of criminal evidence on town residents or students. Sounds dramatic and no doubt I might find legitimate exceptions to the rule, but it's just not the way to go at all on this issue.
Tom,
I do think that gang crime is a kind of crime that deserves more specific public discussion than usual, because it requires more of a community effort to provide kids who may be experiencing identity problems with enough interesting things to do and ego boosting. My sense is that Maplewood has been taking reasonable and successful preventive action on this issue for some time, and I've not seen evidence the gang threat is growing, but would of course want to know if it was. I think "parents nights" like Marie proposed and other information sessions with police officers are good things.
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Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 2387
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 4:04 pm: | |
At this point, I hope Marie weighs in again. I'd like to see her answers to the questions, so that we can assess the real threats. Actually, there are real concerns. I won't deny it. We need to know how big the threats are. Also, I hope she sees that she was misinterpreting you, harpo, because no one here believes that everything is peachy.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 3026
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 9:17 pm: | |
There was a column in today's News Record about yet another program which was conducted, for parents in our schools, to increase awareness of gang-related issues. Through meetings like that, and the N.A.G. presentations, parents have been provided the opportunity to hear the "real story" from our local police officers and people in the schools. There seem to be a lot of efforts underway to make sure that any students who may be at-risk, are kept away from serious gang involvement.
Unfortunately, some people seem to equate vigilance about gangs, and getting educated about preventive efforts, as meaning that we've already lost the battle. That's a shame, and it's a shame that people seem to feel the need to accuse local officials, and concerned parents, of not caring about the issue. |
harpo
Citizen
Username: Harpo
Post Number: 1373
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 10:21 pm: | |
You beat me to it, Nohero!
People on this thread have asked if anyone else really cares. The column in the News-Record is written by the principal of the Jefferson Elementary School, Maryrose Caulfield-Sloan and she describes a joint effort with the PTA to provide answers about gang prevention which "people have had a great many quetions about."
The program at the school included a presentation from Patricia Dow, who is not only a parent at the Jefferson School: She is now the Essex County Prosecutor. She brought with her an investigator from the Essex County Narcotics and Gang Task Force. I think it's a large plus to have the energetic new County prosecutor living in our town. SHe has a solid reputation.
The article also described the work of no fewer than five Maplewood Police Officers who work with youth and gang issues directly with the M/SO schools. They are Det. Sgt. Vincent Cuozzo, Officer Dave Cross, Det. Michael Morrison and Officers Ira Ford and Kevin Kish.
A senior from CHS also "related his own confidence and feelings of safety at CHS." A CHS parent spoke who is also a psychologist for adolescents and pre-adolescents to educate the audience about what lures youth to gangs.
Principal Caulfield-Sloan wrote: "While the topic of gangs is disturbing, the presenters on this night not only provided insight into this area, they provided solutions and ongoing interventions. Many parents were totally unaware of the involvement of the MPD in the schools. . . What came through that night was the personal commitment and dedication of these people.
"Many of the members of the audience came away that night with a feeling that knowledgeable people are actively working to solve problems that face the community."
The article is interesting and worth looking at.
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ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 2051
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 8:58 am: | |
yes, this was a good presentation.
on the other hand, the principal also had an assembly for the students (8, 9, and 10 year olds) about gangs. They actually brought in a convict who spoke to the kids. Theoretically the kids were supposed to walk away with the message that life is a series of building blocks and if you make the wrong choices along the way, it will land you in jail. Well, I went to the assembly and the convict/former gang member was given a ridiculous amount of time to speak. AND his english was so atrocious/gutteral/street it was hard to understand him. The kids were allowed to ask questions - they got so side tracked! Like "do they let you go to the bathroom in jail?" "Can you listen to music?" A few parents tried to reign in the questioning like "Are you sorry for what you did and what would you have done differently" etc, but the whole thing was lost on these kids, imo. Like rap, it just glorified the prison mentality.
My girl said, "Mom, the girls were scared but the boys just didn't get it." |
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 2855
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 9:31 am: | |
"A lot of people posting on MOL, anonymously or like Marie, have run for office against current members of the TC and lost, or some of their nearest and dearest have. They are pretty skimpy with posting positive news about the town."
This is not true. Vic and Jerry still care about this town - the only negative thing they have done is against Art's B&B. Otherwise, I know they are still very positive about Maplewood. |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 2395
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 10:17 am: | |
I don't follow, nohero. Who is saying we've lost the battle?
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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mellie
Citizen
Username: Mellie
Post Number: 431
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:44 pm: | |
mem, Vic and Jerry did more negative things than just Art' B&B. How about the appallingly mishandled reval and the subsequent polarization into East Side and West Side.
By a strange coincidence the voting public agree with me on this. |
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 2859
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:59 pm: | |
mellie,
Sorry - correction - I meant to say the only negative stuff about V & J that I POSTED here on MOL - besides the reval and peripherals - is about Art's B & B. I'm sure they and others have done lots of negative things, I just haven't posted it all here like harpo says I did. |
harpo
Citizen
Username: Harpo
Post Number: 1375
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 3:32 pm: | |
ffof,
that's an interesting report. Did the program leave you wondering if these kinds of programs inadverantly stimulate kids imaginations to think a prisoner is like any kind of celebrity? You were there and I wasn't, but I wonder if in some kids minds, not being able to listen to music or go to the bathroom is like the worst thing they can imagine happening in life.
Just as an aside, I'll add that many years I was arrested in an anti-Nixon political protest and was taken to jail along with hundreds of other protesters. Many of the arrestees decided not to post bail as a protest at being arrested at all. When I discovered, however, that all the toilets the jail cells were lined up facing a hallway where the guards could watch women use them, I bailed out immediately. I've never joined in any protest that seemed likely to get me arrested. As my one experience with jail, it left a deep impression.
mem,
I was obviously referring to republican losers. |
twig
Citizen
Username: Twig
Post Number: 96
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 10:33 pm: | |
harpo - in a prior post, you wrote that it is rumored there are "asian gangs" in livingston. I guess the unsubstantiated rumors you are repeating about livingston are more valid than the ones you are complaining about Marie spreading in relation to CHS? |
Who?
Citizen
Username: Deadwhitemale
Post Number: 700
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 12:12 pm: | |
The Asian gangs in Livingston are the children of Asian immigrants who purchased homes there, and encouraged their children to get a good education, motivating the children to join gangs like math club, computer club and the like.
Just like our gangs.
DWM |
Diane Davey
Citizen
Username: Suburbanmama
Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 10:51 pm: | |
I also attended the Jefferson assembly at which a prisoner spoke to the children. Although it may not have been the optimal way to address the topic with that particular population, in my opinion the assembly was worthwhile.
My ten year old definitely heard the message that if you have clear goals and you keep them in mind, you can make choices that will keep you out of trouble. (My eight year old was more interested in the fact that your birthday is just another day in prison - no cupcakes.)
The ONLY thing about the prisoner which was presented as attractive was the fact that he had renounced his gang affiliation and intended to live a law-abiding life when he was released. Who knows what goes on inside kids' heads, but I certainly didn't see a glamorous angle.
I personally think that when the kids at Jefferson think of gangs, they are more afraid of being beaten up than they are attracted by the lifestyle. Several kids asked whether they would be beaten up if they rejected an invitation to join a gang. At the presentation I was at (there were three presentations - one for each grade), there was a father who had grown up in an urban environment and was able to say that he had in fact rejected gang involvement and now worked in a bank and had a family. (I'm not sure working in a bank and having a family is as attractive to a kid as being a rapper - but I'm pretty sure they got the point that he was responsible for his own choices.)
If our kids are going to face this issue, shouldn't they be armed with information? |
michael
Citizen
Username: Michael
Post Number: 510
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 11:08 pm: | |
Twig correction Marie is not spreading "unsubstantiated rumors" |
ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 2059
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 9:06 am: | |
Diane Davey- I was at the 4th grade presentation. I heard about the 3rd grade and the man who stood up and that sounded great. And perhaps 5th graders are a little more mature as far as understanding the message (is your fifth grader a girl? I wonder what the boys thought). But I'd have to say that the 4th grade presentation was not a particular success. As my daughter summarized, the boys thought the prisoner was "cool". |
harpo
Citizen
Username: Harpo
Post Number: 1379
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 6:13 pm: | |
twig,
I identified them as rumors. That's the difference. I didn't present it as fact.
Michael,
Where has Marie substantiated that gangs were involved in the assaults on the CHS and MMS students? Which gangs were involved or how is it known it was gangs?
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marie
Citizen
Username: Marie
Post Number: 980
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 8:13 pm: | |
The information I have been given was shared with me off the record. I will NOT divulge any information about the identities of those folks who shared it with me.
I guess you can continue to believe that I am an hysterical, rumor mongering racist, with an ulterior political agenda.
Or, you can take me at my word and believe that according to the experts, we currently aren't doing enough to combat the problem. Gang encroachment and gang vio lence will continue to worsen without a more appropriate response.
The other option is to do some investigative work yourself and see what you can uncover.
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twig
Citizen
Username: Twig
Post Number: 97
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 8:28 pm: | |
Harpo - I guess that I fail to see how passing on unsupported disparaging rumors about a racial group (e.g. your post about "Asian gangs") or a community can be justified by "I identified them as rumors". You write so intelligently and passionately about many topics on this board so I cannot imagine that you truly believe that passing on rumors one doesn't know to be true is acceptable...even if it is about a rival community. As for me, I may be dumb as a rock but passing on unsubstantiated rumors without any solid corroborating evidence sounds a bit like how we got into Iraq. |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 2434
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 9:16 pm: | |
Marie, you've left us with the choices of doing our own investigation or taking you at your word. harpo has done her own investigation, gotten answers which contradict yours, and she named her sources. Without knowing either of you, except on MOL, I'd say her explanations are more plausible than yours.
Not that I believe you're a racist. I won't touch that issue.
Furthermore, we've posed a few more questions to you, and I was hoping you could answer them. For instance, harpo asked 1. how you can say the incident at CHS is gang-related and 2. which gangs are encroaching. Answering either of these questions would not divulge your sources. If you can't answer these questions, it would help to know why.
See, the problem here is that you've made claims but in order for us to believe them, you tell us we have to do our own footwork. If that's the case, what service are you providing us here?
If there is something we should do for our kids' safety and our own, I'd like to help.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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harpo
Citizen
Username: Harpo
Post Number: 1381
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 12:05 am: | |
marie,
Would you at least be fair to the reputations of the students who were assaulted? You've implied they are gang members on the record. Is it fair of you to now claim you won't clear their names except off the record? Do you have any evidence that they are gang members? I'm not interested in your sources anymore. But I think you have an obligation not to imply CHS or MMS students are involved with gangs unless you know that for a fact and can identify which gangs you are talking about. (I'm beginning to feel like George Bush demanding answers from John Kerry about foreign leaders!)
Nobody has called you a racist. But I do think you are hysterical. I tried to find out how many driveby shootings there had been in schools in Essex County in recent years. I couldn't come up with a single one, but maybe I just looked in the wrong places. Do you know how many shootings, gang-related or otherwise, have occurred in Essex County schools recently?
There is a risk to living anywhere. There are multiple risks to living anywhere. All of us have different tolerance for risks. Some people would rather not live with any risk of gangs in their vicinity, so they move to Peapack or maybe naively to Westfield. Others realize there is a chance they could get shot driving to get their tires fixed, but the chance is no higher than being killed by an SUV (probably a whole lot lower).
I continue to be more concerned about the absence of 4-way stop sign at Maplewood Ave. and Parker when it comes to the safety of CHS students, but if you think there is not enough gang information being imparted to parents and students, ask for more. But yelling that unless we do it your way immediately, driveby shootings are zooming our way is ... well, hysterical.
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harpo
Citizen
Username: Harpo
Post Number: 1382
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 12:21 am: | |
twig,
I've always thought editorial post-mortems were the dullest writing imaginable, but I'll try one more time:
It is perfectly all right to talk about "rumors about WMD in Iraq." In fact, you just did. By using the word "rumors" you were indicating for readers it is uncorrobated information. The reason we ended up invading Iraq is precisely because the Bush Administration failed to reveal it was discussing rumors, and nothing more. Absent more information from marie, I suggest idnetifying her information as mere rumor, and rumor with less specificity than most people would feel obliged to provide on such a volatile, inflammatory subject.
Hope that's clearer. |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 2463
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 2:11 pm: | |
If Marie responds to our questions, she will prove herself not to be hysterical. Let's give her that chance.
I reread her original post on this thread, and her message is unclear.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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michael
Citizen
Username: Michael
Post Number: 512
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 3:51 pm: | |
I would not hold my breath for a response, But I will re- post the latter part of her original post.
quote:Last week I received a call from a VERY concerned citizen/parent/minister about an incident she saw unfold in front of her house outside of Columbia High School. She reported seeing a car of four youths pull up in front of the school, jump out and begin punching several students who were outside the school. A melee broke out and about approximately 100 students began fighting. The police showed, the crowd scattered and the four youths jumped back into their car and drove off. She observed they were wearing colors. She also they were throwing signs to each other as they drove off in the car. She believes it was definitely gang related.
In this weeks News Record Police Blotter this incident is reported. The report goes out of its way to make the point that this was not a gang related incident. Conversely, in a front page article about vandalism and theft at SOMS it reports that gang members are suspected of having slashed tires on several cars in the parking lot. The eyewitness account of the fight outside CHS differs dramatically from the News Record report of the CHS "fight."
This same parent voiced her concerns about the issue of gangs and gang activity in our community and schools and asked for a response from the Superintendent and the BOE. She was told she would receive a written response over the next week. As of today, she hasn't received a letter.
Our district has taken some measures to combat gang encroachment and gang activity in our community - via placing gang officers in MMS and a gang officer at CHS. The TC is a member o the Essex County Gang Task force. Horoschak claims these issues are being adequately addressed. Every informed source that I have spoken with emphatically claims that we aren't doing enough - we are empowering gangs to take our community from us and it's happening right under our noses.
Is it time to admit that gangs threaten our public health and safety?
Is our BOE's response adequate?
Should our TC be held accountable?
Is the correct response a move to Westfield, or private schools for your children?
Those are options that many Maplewoodians are taking.
There are other viable options, but we are running out of time.
Prissy- what exactly is unclear?
Harpo writes - "Would you at least be fair to the reputations of the students who were assaulted?
You've implied they are gang members on the record."
This is SOOOOOO typical ! 10 days later and 100 and something post later, Harpo continues to deflect the real issue, personally attack the integrity of the reporter and just “make stuff up”!!!
Harpo - “ Implied that the STUDENTS WHO WERE ASSAULTED were GANG MEMBERS?”
Where?
Laughable, Complete Nonsense, and ultimately very sad.
Harpo - "But I do think you are hysterical." – Yeah Ok…. Whatever
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Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 2469
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 4:03 pm: | |
Marie asked "Is it time to admit that gangs threaten our public health and safety?"
I don't know. Is the threat that they are committing crimes in our towns now or that they might in the future if we don't take further action? If the latter, then, no, it's not the sort of thread that makes me want to jump up and down in front of the police and the superintendent. It's the type that makes education for the students prudent, and apparently, the district is doing that. Which leads to a "yes" answer to her question:
"Is our BOE's response adequate?"
Marie asked "Should our TC be held accountable?"
For what? For stuff that has gone on, for stuff that will go on in the future, or for stuff that might go on? And if for stuff that has gone on, which stuff?
"Is the correct response a move to Westfield, or private schools for your children?"
That's an individual decision. Clearly, it is not appropriate for all people in these two towns do do one or the other or both, all at the same time.
You know, I'm trying to be neutral, because I don't know Marie any better than I know harpo. I also want to acknowledge that gang influence should be a concern for parents and everyone else. Marie probably has a point or two to make. Furthermore, her activism is likely to do some good.
But the further I look into her words, the less helpful they appear to be.
And it could merely be that she has a good point but just isn't a good writer. That's not exactly her fault.
I think there is a large and substantial cost of fear when the fear is overblown. What exactly should we be fearing, and what exactly should we be doing about violent threats or "threats of threats"? It sounds like the biggest thread now is that there is a possibility that one day, our kids will be entangled in gangs that organize gratuitous violence. Let's take that seriously now, but let's not claim it has already happened if it hasn't.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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harpo
Citizen
Username: Harpo
Post Number: 1384
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 10:58 am: | |
Michael,
Marie titled the original post in this thread:
"Our Superintendent's Response to Gangs in SOMA Schools"
Can you or Marie name any gangs who are in SOMA schools? Why does getting this information require Private Line messages to you or Marie and an off-duty introduction to the only police around who supposedly tell the truth?
Throughout this thread, you and Marie have referred to "a suspected gang related assault on a 13 year old MMS student in Memorial Park" and an assault on a student at CHS which was described to Marie as having been committed by four youths wearing colors and throwing signs. You emphatically quote the woman who said she believed the incident was "definately gang related" - despite reports from others that her report is significantly wrong in many details.
It was posted here that at least one of the youths who assaulted the CHS student has since been arrested. Has this youth been identified as belonging to a gang? Which gang? Do you know if the CHS student been involved in gang activities in any way?
The theme of your posts on this subject seems to be that these assaults are evidence that there are gang members in SOMA schools who attract violence to the schools and that this will escalate to drive-by shootings. Am I misinterpreting your point of view?
Can you also tell me how many gang-related shootings have taken place in Essex County schools in recent years? |
Diane Davey
Citizen
Username: Suburbanmama
Post Number: 2
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 5:17 pm: | |
ffof,
You are correct, my fifth grader is a girl. I was interested in your daughter's observation that 'the boys' thought the convict was 'cool'.
I asked my third grader (a boy) some questions about what he and his friends thought. It seems to me that they walked out of the presentation and promptly forgot all about it. I did not get the impression that any of them thought that the gang member was 'cool'.
My fifth grader remembered a lot about the presentation and could discuss the various messages that they were trying to get across. She reports that none of the boys in her class thought the gang member was cool, except in having the guts to try to change his life.
There seems to be a big difference between what the third and fourth graders got out of the presentation and what the fifth graders understood (based on our very small sampling).
A stray comment my daughter made today put it together for me. The fifth graders have a D.A.R.E. officer in the classroom on a regular basis discussing drugs and related issues such as making choices. They had some background which helped them understand the assembly, and then they had a forum to discuss it afterwards. I think that made a really big difference in the effectiveness of the presentation. |
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