| Author |
Message |
    
Elizabeth Hoyt
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 35
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 4:05 pm: |     |
It might be a good idea to determine how much time is needed for each child's "phonemic awareness lesson" based upon some informal testing to see how much each child needs. Tests can be devised to determine phonemic awareness levels. Most kindergarten, grade one teachers could devise such tests. |
J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 1059
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 4:24 pm: | |
One would think so. |
mimosa
Citizen
Username: Mimosa
Post Number: 105
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 8:06 pm: | |
Elizabeth,
Only because you've mentioned it a couple of times...do you know why you won't be teaching in this district anymore? Were you told why you will not be offered a contract next year? I understand if you'd rather not answer...it is very personal. However, you seem to be an experienced and thoughtful teacher. Is it the budget? |
nan
Citizen
Username: Nan
Post Number: 1249
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 9:52 pm: | |
Elizabeth,
I find it hard to believe that someone who has just spent 11 months in working in our school district, evaluating ". . .the outcomes of curriculum choice. . ." can claim to have no knowledge of how phonics is taught here--not even knowing the name of the program!
Unless, of course, they appear right before an election where more than one candidate needs us to believe that our LA program needs a published replacement. You certianly are experienced and thoughtful and you act so nice --'tis a pity you're a troll. (or a plant or a shill--I don't know the proper lingo for these things).
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nan
Citizen
Username: Nan
Post Number: 1250
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 10:04 pm: | |
Jennifer,
So, now you speak for "most of us?"
Maybe you can tell "most of us" that the NRP report recommended 20 hours of phonemic awareness training a year. No one specified how many minutes a day it should be. Naturally, children who need more should get more---but those that don't should get something else instead.
And yes, the ACE list of programs does give the illusion of choice. But, why any school district would pick one packaged program for one grade and then another for a different grade is beyond me. Custom made curriculums such as ours or Abbington have a completely different mindset--it's not a fair comparison. The boxed curriculums offer no fuss convenience--so I doubt anyone who wants to go that route would complicate the planning, the ordering, the training and the headache. But, since you "speak for most of us," and don't give a hoot about how much these programs cost, I guess it's no skin off your teeth to say we should get more than one of 'em.
As for Word Journeys--I am amazed how much of an expert you try to be on the program considering that you know NOTHING about it. You never even tried to read the book. Just make stuff up as you go along.
Phonics is the letter sound correspondence. It is not about "sounding it out" although usually children do learn to do that. In some reading programs, such as the ones you endorse, that's the only way they are taught to handle unknown words. I'm still waiting to hear why you would limit them in that way. That's another item to add to my "want to scare an ACE member into dropping their flyers outside of the Post Office--try this" list.
It's like waving garlic in front of a vampire, that list.
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athos
Citizen
Username: Athos
Post Number: 133
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 10:48 pm: | |
nan,
you're losing.....
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nan
Citizen
Username: Nan
Post Number: 1251
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 5:25 am: | |
Why do you say that Athos? The troll has resigned. And as far as I can tell, Msteachum is still in moth balls. Jennifer, of course is still with us, but there is not much I can do about someone who is not willing to do a little fact checking and believes all those spun whoppers.
I have added a few items to my list.
Action Items! THE Unanswered Questions that no ACE member dare to address
1) If we don't want a scripted program, why should we even consider buying one? Why not suggest a NORMAL program (something with perhaps ONE teacher's manual, instead of ten at $56.18 @.)?
2) Why are you recommending the non-scripted use of scripted programs? Since the authors of these programs don't consider them effective unless they are followed as written you are in fact recommending that we spend lots of money for something we are not going to use as intended.
3) How are we supposed to pay for one of these behemoths? Open Court, for example, has quite an extensive materials list--and that's not even for extras.
4) The effect sizes for the scripted programs reviewed in the NRP report suck eggs. Yet, these are the same programs ACE recommends as "scientifically proven." Why is that?
5) The NRP report compared several types of phonics and found no difference between the different types. Why then is ACE insisting that the phonics found in scripted programs--synthetic--is the superior kind?
6) Children need more than one strategy to figure out unknown words. Why would you select a reading program that would only teach them ONE way to do that?
7) Programs such as Open Court require about 150 minutes a day to be used as intended. That means other subjects will need to be eliminated or minimized. In California this usually means that art, music, recess and even math are on the chopping block. What's going to go around here? |
Elizabeth Hoyt
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 42
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 6:45 am: | |
Nan:
Poor you! |
J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 1062
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 10:24 am: | |
"Why do you say that Athos? The troll has resigned. And as far as I can tell, Msteachum is still in moth balls...."
Is anyone reminded of the closing scenes in the film "Inherit the Wind," where the scriptural literalist prosecutor William Jennings Bryan, having finally lost his purchase on credibility, is left to rant alone on the witness stand where he begins reciting the books of the Bible?
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Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 534
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 10:57 am: | |
Why don't we just abandon the "one size fits all" concept and separate the children by ability, which would simplify things for everyone.
The slower learners can get the scripted programs that seem to work for them. The faster learners can get a more intellectually demanding program. We'll give it a progressive-sounding label like "affirmative multiple learning style scheduling for higher-level skill development" so that everyone has a good feeling, and hire a PR consultant to get the message out. |
amandacat
Citizen
Username: Amandacat
Post Number: 406
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 12:20 pm: | |
Sorry, but that's really funny, J. Crohn . . . |
sportsnut
Citizen
Username: Sportsnut
Post Number: 1049
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 2:28 pm: | |
"Why don't we just abandon the "one size fits all" concept and separate the children by ability, which would simplify things for everyone."
Isn't that the basic premise behind levelling? |
Elizabeth Hoyt
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 43
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 6:14 pm: | |
Montagnard:
Separate the children for the brief time of the lesson, then reintegrate them for other activities. That's differentiated instruction. |
Brian O'Leary
Citizen
Username: Brianoleary
Post Number: 1538
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 6:20 pm: | |
In the spirit of Nan's earlier post, the questions that I've not heard answered yet:
How do we know what we have in place is working?
What do we expect in terms of positive change over time (what's good enough for you)?
How long do we stick with what we have before the results convince us that, however good it is, it may not be good enough? |
Elizabeth Hoyt
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 44
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 6:28 pm: | |
Allow me to suggest some answers. The answer to question one is, devise a test. It doesn't have to be the Terra Nova, or anywhere near that. The answer to question three is, the test can be administered within weeks, or days if you choose, of the first lessons,depending upon the program and the lesson plans. (You usually test at a logical breaking point.) The answer to question two is, you have to look at test results and compare them to other schools using the same approaches. Then you have to decide if the results satisfy the community. You have to give these lessons time, though. You can't expect success overnight. Children, like adults, take time to absorb new information. |
kathy
Citizen
Username: Kathy
Post Number: 805
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 6:57 pm: | |
Two and a half hours a day of scripted phonics instruction?? Yikes. What about the kids who don't need that? Will they ever want to read again?
My son was a fluent reader long before he started Kindergarten. I can't imagine what his first-grade experience would have been like if half of every day had been taken up with "phonemic awareness".
I am not at all opposed to phonics instruction for kids who need it. But our kids are, over all, out-performing the kids in almost every other NJ district. Surely there are ways to help the kids who aren't making it without throwing out what is working well for most kids. |
Elizabeth Hoyt
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 45
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 7:22 pm: | |
Two and a half hours all at once is tough for five to eight-year-olds. Who is advocating that? |
Who?
Citizen
Username: Deadwhitemale
Post Number: 748
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 9:31 pm: | |
Come on!
The district's vaporware curriculum fails too many students.
If they need five hours a day of intensive, scripted, repetitious Direct Instruction, (which I have reviewed in an Englemann version), then they need it. And, it actually seems like it would be fun, because the kids actually learn how to read.
Reading, or failure due to illiteracy, is forever.
What a small investment for a lifetime of reward.
DWM
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Elizabeth Hoyt
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 48
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, April 1, 2004 - 2:44 am: | |
OK, but you need breaks, change of pace, change of focus, multisensory approaches, and you need to include beginning arithemetic in the day. |
Elizabeth Hoyt
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 49
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, April 1, 2004 - 2:47 am: | |
...and you need to have (for want of a more poetic turn of phrase) "reading applications" such as teacher reading stories, coversations, discussions, science and social studies based, verbally based, activities. |
C Bataille
Citizen
Username: Nakaille
Post Number: 1693
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, April 1, 2004 - 8:56 am: | |
Elizabeth, what you describe above is exactly what my second grader is getting/doing. Also, she is writing stories and plays (with a group) along with numberous other writing activities. They keep journals for science and social studies and use songs and plays to learn science and history facts. It's working so well that my daughter recently decided to copy a chart out of her Magic School Bus book at home about the solar system. I don't think she understands what planetary mass is but she does know about comparing and contrasting information concerning related objects. And by copying the chart she got practice spelling the names of the planets. This was her idea, not ours. But something about how she is learning in school is certainly inspiring her to learn more independently.
Cathy |
mellie
Citizen
Username: Mellie
Post Number: 473
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, April 1, 2004 - 9:02 am: | |
so what is Nan's point again? |
Elizabeth Hoyt
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 50
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, April 1, 2004 - 5:10 pm: | |
C. Bataille:
I am so glad that's working for your daughter. It sounds like she has a great teacher. It takes energy, imagination and planning to do it right.
Aren't you lucky to have such a great class for her!
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Who?
Citizen
Username: Deadwhitemale
Post Number: 751
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, April 1, 2004 - 5:29 pm: | |
Sorry, I don't understand multisensory.
Speaking, hearing, touching, smelling, seeing?
Edubabble, methinks.
Preached by the choir, to the choir.
DWM |
Elizabeth Hoyt
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 53
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, April 1, 2004 - 6:34 pm: | |
Yeah, it's edubabble, but we know what we mean. (Try understanding engineers or financiers when you're a teacher...of social studies, and not engineering or math) Anyway...multisensory does mean using materials that are three dimensional, using stuff that is visually pretty and interesting, colorful, tactile, just interesting stuff. If you're the choir, where's your imagination? |
nan
Citizen
Username: Nan
Post Number: 1252
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, April 1, 2004 - 9:06 pm: | |
Excellent questions, Brian. Even if they do sounds kind of negative, like something Fringe would ask. Kind of hostile naked light bulb interrogation zone questions, if you ask me. Why not something like "What unique qualities do we value in our schools that a change in curriculum might effect?" How come you don't want answers to questions like that?
Now, without any further complaining, I will do the best I can--given that any one of these questions could be a Ph.D. thesis, never mind a single post.
Question #1 - How do we know what we have in place is working?
Well, I'd like a more in-depth definition of "working," but for the sake of simplicity I'll just stick to the conventional test score measure where I think we do quite well comparably with other similar districts and some subsets do quite well in comparison with other more homogenized districts.
Of course we have the achievement gap and we need to focus on that as does every other affected school district in the country.That makes us extremely vulnerable to falling for quick fix solutions.
So, we have to stop and think--do we really want the usual knee jerk reactions such as turning our school district into a test prep mills or begining a Holy Grail search for the right packaged magic bullet? That seems to be the answer for some folks. To me, the test prep is out, and there seems to be a huge amount of risk involved with jumping to buy a program reportedly effective for struggling kids and hope it suits everyone else just fine too. Might not suit anyone--but it WILL cost a lot of money.
So, I guess until we are assured that something else is going to work better, I think we know what we have now basically works. Or as Kathy said it better than I could: "Surely there are ways to help the kids who aren't making it without throwing out what is working well for most kids."
Question # 2 - What do we expect in terms of positive change over time (what's good enough for you)?
Why do I feel like the correct answer to this is supposed be 100% of all children reading at grade level or above and anything else is a failure and we need to switch programs? We can do better! (sound familiar?) Brian, is this a trick question? Hummm. Well, that would be a great thing if reading on grade level really was some absolute event and standardized tests used a criterion instead of a norm reference. But this is a world with NCLB and Sbenois and carefully orchestrated message board trolls.
So, lets go with the Continuous Improvement Model (CIM) shall we? That's a nice safe corporate choice. I can live with that. Let's work towards better test scores while consciously not sucking the joy out of the classroom. Let's get more kids scoring on grade level--whatever that is and more kids into the library more often. But then we don't check things like how many books kids are reading in the library--maybe we should--maybe we if we want positive change, we need to start measuring positive things.
Question # 3 - How long do we stick with what we have before the results convince us that, however good it is, it may not be good enough?
The answer for #3 flows from #2 since I don't think we should stick with what we have ever--we should continue to build on what we have and evolve and make it better. If there is something not working--or even if it's just something that parents are concerned about than lets focus on improving that. At least, then we are working within a framework where we have a history and something to compare the change with--not chasing pie in the sky.
I think suggestions for change should come primarily from districts using similar programs since those kind of changes will be easier to make. Locally we could look at the Abbington School in Newark or some of the District 2 schools in Manhattan such as P.S. 6 or The Manhattan New School, or P.S. 234 or P.S. 3 (I can't remember the exact numbers for all of them). These schools have successful literature based programs with successful students and happy parents--just what we want to see in our district. These are the models we should turn to for change, not direct instruction, which would require an enormous upheaval and for which there is no evidence that it would work any better.
We could also check out a school much closer to home like Seth Boyden which was originally set up to be a testing ground for the rest of the district. (Don't your kids go there?) I've hear about so many great things happening over at that school, academically and in the general environment. I know it's not perfect, but it's not hype either. And I'm not talking about the multiple intelligence curriculum, which I know little about. I'm talking about kids spending a lot of time actually reading and writing, and doing in-depth units of study on different topics (as described above by Cathy). Of course I don't send my kid there so I don't have first hand knowledge. But, there is something we should look closely at first before heading off to greener pastures.
So, do you think some of those ACE members might take a stab at my questions now? I'm not holding my breath.
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