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GoBlue
Citizen
Username: Turner407
Post Number: 9
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 8, 2004 - 4:18 pm: |     |
My wife and I are considering installing an oil tank in our basement instead of using our current tank which is underground. What are the pros and cons of doing this? Specifically, is it safe and what effect will it have on my home insurance rates? Also, any contractor recommendations and price ranges would be helpful. Thanks. |
Ruck1977
Citizen
Username: Ruck1977
Post Number: 69
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 8, 2004 - 4:48 pm: | |
Great question...we are in the same situation, and I constantly worry about that underground tank. I look forward to what people have to say..
I know there is a concern about digging out the old tank. If they find leaks when the tank is dug out, there are environmental ramifications, and I believe the contractor is ethically obligated to report such an instance. It could mean thousands in clean up. However, if there are no leaks...you could be fine. I don't know if it will make your ins. rates go down, but you will certainly be able to shop around to different companies. We had a heck of a time even finding a company that would cover us (last year) when we bought the house because of the inground tank....
Also...you will lose basement space...if thats an issue, but thats fairly obvious.
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Sylad
Citizen
Username: Sylad
Post Number: 419
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, March 8, 2004 - 7:41 pm: | |
We recently removed our underground tank, it was leaking, we had insurance, we installed a 275 gallon take in the basement.
The new tank is great.
Not sure about the requirements in Maplewood, but in SO, if you stop using the underground tank you have to remove it, you can not just clean it out and fill it with sand, some contractors will tell you that you can but you can't.
If you have tank insurance you can remove it, if it is leaking the policy will cover all cost, depending on your policy they may pay for the new tank as well, ours did. If you remove it and the tank is not leaking then you are on the hook for all the cost.
The company we worked with was great,AIM Tank, they did it all, permits, inspection, EPA documents.
I would be happy to talk with you about this.
PL me so we can connect. |
Richard O'Connor
Citizen
Username: Roconn
Post Number: 190
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 9, 2004 - 7:55 am: | |
I converted to Gas (its just better (imho)) and had to deal with the tank. In West Orange, the firm I found (3 years ago) offered two options ...
Remove or Decomission
Decommission cost 1500 and required draining, opening, cleaning then inspection before Sand filling. West Orange came out, inspected the interior of the tank for holes/leaks and then after pronouncing the old tank fine (it had been in service) it was filled, covered and now there is lawn there.
The guy who did it (I can look him up) suggested that I start with this instead of directly to removal. Mostly this is based on cost. If sand filling (decommission) is not allowed in your town well, it isn't an option.
My guy (I wish I could remember his name) suggested that if he started digging and they found any 'traces' of oil, he'd have to keep digging until the ground was clean. He did a tank nearby this way and I saw how big that hole became and noticed how long it took. The process at my house took a day.
Be very prepared for the worst case before you start. I was told that OFTEN even active tanks can have small pinhole leaks (particularly older tanks) and that once the digging starts they sometimes aren't able to stop until you have an olympic pool sized hole.
Be prepared for that ... your insurance company may pay part of a cleanup on your property, but not always.
As to basement tanks, I grew up in a house with one and it never gave my dad any trouble up to the day we (he and I) took it out. (He converted to gas in the 70's we finally took the tank out in the mid 90's ... it was just never a priority -- and it never gave him a speck of trouble.
Also make sure the company that maintains your oil burner is involved ... if I recall correctly, I read (somewhere) that the piping to your oil burner with a tank above burner level (which your basement tank will be) requires different supply connections.
Richard (ROC)
--Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic.--
--AIM: ROConn |
millie amoresano
Citizen
Username: Millieamoresano
Post Number: 47
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 9, 2004 - 9:15 am: | |
We used Paul Ianiro contractors in Orange 973-678-2545 their price and service was great they are certified by the state to remove or sandfill oiltanks.Thy also took care of the permit. |
Handygirl
Citizen
Username: Handygirl
Post Number: 16
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 9, 2004 - 10:43 am: | |
We bought our house in SO 1 1/2 years ago and part of the deal was that the Seller had to remove the inactive underground oil tank before we would close (the Seller had had an above- ground tank installed in the garage 10 years before). In SO, the town sends inspectors during the removal process and the contractors have to send soil samples to the town for testing before the town will issue a "no action letter". Our underground tank hadn't been used in over ten years and had no discernible leaks, however, some of our soil tests still came back positive because of what were later described as "pin-hole leaks". As a result, the contractors had to remove additional contaminated dirt, send the new soil samples for additional testing... Luckily the second batch came up clean. In the end, the ordeal cost roughly $12,000. I do not think that the Seller had insurance. So, my point is, prepare yourself for the worst and hope for the best. Oh, and our garage oil tank is working fine.
Handygirl |
botulismo
Citizen
Username: Botulismo
Post Number: 114
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 9, 2004 - 5:54 pm: | |
We bought our house in Maplewood 2-1/2 years ago and before we closed on the house, we had the UG oil tank tested for leakage. The tank could not hold pressure which means that there could be a leak any where in the system from the tank to the piping. We struck a deal with the seller that if they remove the tank instead of merely doing an investigation for leakage, then we would pay for the installation of a new tank in our basement.
For us, it was an easy decision. No more worries...
Pro's -
1. Never have to worry about oil leaking into the soil and water leaking into the tank.
2. Do not have to pay for tank insurance from the oil company
3. Cheaper home insurance.
4. Most insurance companies do not sell policies to homes with UG oil tanks.
5. Major source of tank failure (water) not an issue in basement.
6. Any leaks from piping or tank failure is visible and easily cleaned up
Cons -
1. Upfront cost of old tank removal and new tank installation
2. Space AG tank takes up in basement may be a concern
3. piping more exposed to physical damage
4. Additional fire loading in basement
5. "How the he-- do I get that thing in my basement!!!"
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jab
Citizen
Username: Jab
Post Number: 191
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 9, 2004 - 8:01 pm: | |
We had to have our underground tank removed last year because it was leaking. We knew there was a problem because water was getting into the burner, which meant that water had to be finding its way into the tank. Fortuneately, we had the environmental protection contract with Petro. When the environmental cleanup company dug up the tank they found that it had several coin-sized holes. They had to remove dirt in roughly a 10' x 8' area going down about 12'. Now we have a tank in the basement, but this year has not been without incident. Petro was just here for the second or third time because air had gotten into the burner. The tehnician said it had something to do with the feedline going along the ceiling (and therefore above the tank itself). He said we should not have this problem again and that there is some modification they can make if we do. One thing I like about having the tank in the basement is that there is a guage we can see, so that in the coldest months we could monitor whether we were running low before Petro expected us to.
By the way, I called our insurance company to let them know that the underground tank was gone and it had no impact on our rate. |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 27
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 9:03 am: | |
In terms of impact to a potential buyer: I'd say it largely depends on what kind of advice they're getting. We're first-time homebuyers who just moved to Maplewood. Our inspector and attorney both warned us about buying a home that still had an oil tank in the ground, even if decommissioned. If you get a buyer familiar with such things, they may well be comforted in knowing that it has been filled and is protected. But as we moved here from an area where oil tanks are less common, the horror stories we heard were enough to keep us away from houses that had them.
As a buyer, you're taking on a lot of responsibility with a decommissioned oil tank. At the very least, I'd think they'd want to see detailed documents about exactly what you had done to it, and when. |
Richard O'Connor
Citizen
Username: Roconn
Post Number: 204
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 9:08 am: | |
CM ... very true... when the tank was decommissioned I got all the appropriate paperwork and sign-offs and have it all together in the event that I do in the future sell the house.
I would think that with all that paperwork (which has the official seals of approval) even a novice in home ownership would be comfortable.
I had all those issues myself with the in-ground tank when I bought the house, I grew up with oil heat, but don't get (at all) this inground tank thing that happened up here ... I'm not a gas station ... why would I want in-ground storage?
Anyway, properly taken care of, with records here and also in the township (west orange) records I don't think I should have any future problem.
Richard (ROC)
--Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic.--
--AIM: ROConn |
Richard O'Connor
Citizen
Username: Roconn
Post Number: 205
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 9:12 am: | |
And I'd add this, if the tank was decommissioned according to the laws and regulations at the time it was done, by a company certified by the township/village/state then there is NO future responsibilty beyond that it is there. If it's full of sand, the only thing it can leak is sand and the odds that 'in the future' they'd find some reason to have to dig it out is very slim.
Richard (ROC)
--Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic.--
--AIM: ROConn |
Handygirl
Citizen
Username: Handygirl
Post Number: 18
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 10:15 am: | |
Richard,
When your tank was decommissioned, did the contractor test the surrounding soil as well? My only concern would be that, although there is sand in the tank now, the new buyer would still be on the hook for any leakage that happened prior to the decommissioning. That's what happened with the tank in our yard. It hadn't been used for over 10 years, but when it was removed, trace amounts of oil was found - enough to merit further excavation (and more $$). I agree with you - who came up with the brilliant idea of underground oil tanks anyway????
Handygirl |
Richard O'Connor
Citizen
Username: Roconn
Post Number: 207
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 11:43 pm: | |
Well, I hadn't thought of it that way but .... if there are trace amounts of oil that were not found during the decommissioning ... then they were just that ... trace ... and over time they will break down and actually YES ... BE GOOD for the soil.
I think (given the grandfathering provisions in the law) that unless your tank is unused and under the lawn there would not likely be any reason for it to have future problems .... its all (over time ....) going to turn back into dirt.
Anyway, that is what I have been told and what the township told me (West Orange)
Richard (ROC)
--Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic.--
--AIM: ROConn |
Sylad
Citizen
Username: Sylad
Post Number: 442
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 8:28 am: | |
For what it is worth I would not buy a house with that has decommissioned tank on the property unless the EPA has issued a "no further action" letter. Regardless of what the previous owner did or did not do if you own the property your are responsible. There could be groundwater contamination, if the tank is close to the edge of the property and the leakage spreads to your neighbor you are responsible.
We have friends that purchased a house, they were not told that there was a decommissioned tank on the property, they found it when they put in a pool. There was contamination, it cost $15K for the removal and the clean up.
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Handygirl
Citizen
Username: Handygirl
Post Number: 28
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 10:24 am: | |
FYI, in S.O. at least, once you open the ground, you are required to get rid of every bit of oil (even trace amounts). It is my understanding that you need to apply for a town permit and that S.O. inspectors must be present during the excavation. Our seller had to schedule his contractors around when the town inspector was available. And you have to keep removing the dirt until your samples come back negative. It took us two excavations and two sets of testing before our soil came back completely negative. My in-laws had their active tank removed because it was leaking, and it cost close to $100,000 to clean up - thankfully their homeowners insurance covered it.
Handygirl |
Handygirl
Citizen
Username: Handygirl
Post Number: 29
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 10:27 am: | |
Richard, if you never have to dig up your tank, or open the ground up, then you are probably all good, although as a new buyer, I wouldn't want to take that risk.
Handygirl |
Sylad
Citizen
Username: Sylad
Post Number: 445
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 11:45 am: | |
I am with Handy...our "No Further Action" letter from the EPA is like gold.
Our tank removal and new basement tank install was done in one day, the clean up was done in one day, they removed ~ 35 tons of soil to get it all out. Our cost thanks to our oil tank policy was $500. Total cost was $15K. |
Richard O'Connor
Citizen
Username: Roconn
Post Number: 211
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 6:52 am: | |
I am certainly hoping never having to dig up my front yard .... (of course I was also hoping never to have a big tree on my house ....)
So maybe the odds are against me 
Richard (ROC)
--Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic.--
--AIM: ROConn |
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