| Author |
Message |
    
SlowDog
Citizen
Username: Bca
Post Number: 15
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, March 8, 2004 - 5:29 pm: |     |
Here's one for those of you in the know: Our third floor is finished (about 25 x 12), but not heated. We have steam heat. We'll be using the third floor more frequently soon, and the issue is, from a cost and efficiency perspective: Do we rip apart a few walls and get a radiator connected to our steam system up there, or do we go with electric baseboard. Use would be, on average, 5 days a week during the day, 4 nights a month. Thanks. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4918
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 8, 2004 - 6:06 pm: | |
While I know the "Steamheads" (George, Tjohn and Richard) probably aren't going to agree I would go with the electric.
First, the cost of instaling piping and radiators is going to be pretty high and your boiler may or may not have the capacity to handle the additional load.
Second, you are going to use the attic on a limited basis so you don't have to heat it all the time.
Third, heat tends to rise and most attics even unheated aren't all that cold, although this depends on if there is insulation in the floor or not, so the heat load may not be that great.
|
jgberkeley
Supporter
Username: Jgberkeley
Post Number: 3516
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 8, 2004 - 6:46 pm: | |
I just finished such a project where the homeowner insisted on electric heat.
Given that, I insisted on an over engineered and meticulously installed insulation and air movement system, along with detailed caulking and window replacements.
We went thru this winter and I'm ok with the results.
But to answer your question, STEAM!!!!
Factor in the cost of the electric bill, and the extra efforts on the insulation and other work, I think the steam comes out to be a better deal.
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic. |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2334
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 8, 2004 - 6:52 pm: | |
Strictly speaking, a new radiator will require a new riser from the main in the basement and this will involve opening walls on the first and second floors.
In practice, you may be able to run a second radiator off of an existing riser to a second floor radiator. This would be less disruptive.
However, if the attic rad is fairly large, and for a 12x20 attic room, I am going to guess a 60 sq foot rad, you probably want a new riser.
|
wharfrat
Citizen
Username: Wharfrat
Post Number: 1006
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 8, 2004 - 7:09 pm: | |
How about running a gas line up the venting/plumbing chase through the bathroom, up to the attic, and putting in a small gas powered heater? |
Master Plvmber
Citizen
Username: Master_plvmber
Post Number: 191
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 8, 2004 - 8:35 pm: | |
...Or a supply and return pipe off the existing steam boiler and make the attic a hot water zone with its own thermostat.
Master_Plvmber
|
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2335
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 8, 2004 - 9:00 pm: | |
MP,
Can you run a hot water loop to the attic. I thought there was a height limit. |
J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 975
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 8, 2004 - 10:12 pm: | |
This may sound radical, but I wouldn't even bother with heating the attic.
We insulated with R-17 and sheetrocked ours, put in some recessed floods, and since last summer have used it 7 days a week, day and night. No additional heat whatsoever. House thermostat is set at 62. Attic is only slightly cooler than the second floor, and not even that when the lights are on.
I would think you could get by just fine with a plug-in heater, if you like your room very warm. |
jgberkeley
Supporter
Username: Jgberkeley
Post Number: 3517
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 8, 2004 - 10:59 pm: | |
J. Crohn is telling the same story as the house I did over the fall and finished over the winter.
It was snug and warm.
But, TJ, sure you can put a hot water loop into an attic. Just do the calculations correctly and install a pump that can handle the Head pressure. That with the return suction and all will work well.
Later,
George
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4919
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 9, 2004 - 5:07 am: | |
We have an attic room of around 300 square feet. During a 10960s remodel the stairs were opened so heat rises to the attic. There is no heat source. It is usually comfortable. If added heat is needed we use one of those DeLongi oil filled electric radiators. |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2338
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 9, 2004 - 5:43 am: | |
Seems like a hot water loop off of the steam boiler is the way to go. Hot water baseboard heat on a separate thermostat. |
Richard O'Connor
Citizen
Username: Roconn
Post Number: 188
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 9, 2004 - 7:38 am: | |
My feelings also hot water loop off your boiler. Easier than running a steam riser up and its on its own t-stat.
Electric (particularly used 5 days a week) will cost more to run ... and only (my guess) nominally less to install than the h20 because good electric is going to need electric service run (opening walls) and if you don't all ready have 200A service in your house, its likely to make that necessary too.
Steam (or rather hot water) seems to be the better choice ... call a couple of good plumbers and get estimates ... then call a couple of electricians and get estimates from them ... then weigh the additional cost to run (which will be much smaller on your current boiler than the additional electric (I would think) and decide based on that.
Richard (ROC)
--Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic.--
--AIM: ROConn |
Master Plvmber
Citizen
Username: Master_plvmber
Post Number: 192
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 9, 2004 - 7:47 am: | |
The height limit is about 40 feet with common controls. After that, it gets a little involved.
Master_Plvmber
|
SlowDog
Citizen
Username: Bca
Post Number: 16
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 9, 2004 - 8:41 am: | |
Thanks for all of the useful input. It currently gets pretty chilly up there, and we definitely need our DeLonghi electric oil filled heater.
Being a novice, could someone explain how a hot water loop off of my boiler works, as opposed to adding a riser? Is rigging a hot water loop on a steam system complicated? How much damage to the walls would a hot water loop entail, as opposed to adding a riser? Many thanks.
ROC: You are correct, we would need to upgrade to 200A if we installed electric baseboard, but that is something we thought we would have to do anyway. |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2341
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 9, 2004 - 9:18 am: | |
A hot water loop off of your steam boiler will consist of a 3/4" copper pipe from the boiler to the hot water baseboard in your attic and a 3/4" copper pipe from the attic back to the boiler. There will be a pump that pumps the water from the boiler through the attic loop. Some additional boiler wiring will be needed to support a second thermostat as well as a temperature shutoff for the boiler when only the hot water loop is running. I would imagine that walls on the first and second floors will have to be opened to run the pipes. |
Richard O'Connor
Citizen
Username: Roconn
Post Number: 192
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 9, 2004 - 12:08 pm: | |
And the opening of the walls, be it for a hot water loop or steam riser is the same.
The advantage to not having a steam riser is that they won't have to cut and fit the fittings on your basement steam mains to add a hot water loop.
The advantage to the steam riser is it is one pipe, goes to a radiator just like the rest and is controlled in exactly the same way.
I don't think either hydronic based option is going to cost you as much to utilize as the electric option ...
Richard (ROC)
--Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic.--
--AIM: ROConn |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4923
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 9, 2004 - 12:14 pm: | |
As far as the hot water option is concerned is the new, flexible cross linked polyethelene tubing available and legal here?
This would probably make the job a lot easier and result in fewer and smaller holes. |
Richard O'Connor
Citizen
Username: Roconn
Post Number: 196
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 9, 2004 - 12:25 pm: | |
I think they could use pex, but it would probably require more 'basement plumbing' as there is a temp limit more likely imposed -- Pex is usually used for low temp (less than 140) radiant systems, I've never seen it used for a baseboard .... course, they could always put a radiant floor up there ... wondering if you could do low temp radiant off the boiler?
(this is slowly turning into a very this old house type renovation (which means we're getting astronomical in terms of what it costs.  )
Richard (ROC)
--Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic.--
--AIM: ROConn |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4925
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 9, 2004 - 12:40 pm: | |
Richard, my thoughts exactly, which is why I suggested electric heat.
And speaking of This Old House, I saw an episode where they used pex for regular hot water baseboard heat. |
Richard O'Connor
Citizen
Username: Roconn
Post Number: 198
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 9, 2004 - 12:45 pm: | |
I missed that one .. but either way (even with electric) they are going to have to open some walls so . . . .
(and I admit it .. I'm a steamhead first, a wethead second and only after any water based option is deemed impossible do I feel air or electric is a good plan)
Richard (ROC)
--Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic.--
--AIM: ROConn |
Zeno
Citizen
Username: Eratosthenes
Post Number: 61
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 9, 2004 - 1:01 pm: | |
Electric heat is the most inefficient form there is. Unless you can microwave the attic . |
SlowDog
Citizen
Username: Bca
Post Number: 17
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 9, 2004 - 1:29 pm: | |
This is making more sense. I understand that electric is least efficient, but over what period of time? If we stay in our house for another 3 years, and the cost of installing electric baseboard is 1/3 of the cost of installing a water based solution, I would think the net would weigh in favor of electric (in other words, is gas that much cheaper, particularly given my intended use). Do any of you have any idea of the cost of installing a hot water loop?
This is all very helpful. Thanks. |
Richard O'Connor
Citizen
Username: Roconn
Post Number: 202
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 8:54 am: | |
My guess ... and a good hydronicyst (oh god, I think I just made that word up) would actually KNOW ... is that the additonal load on your boiler by going with steam or a h2o loop will be negligible in terms of heat load on the boiler and the amount of additonal gas/oil required.
Its unlikely that your additional space will want heat when the rest of the house wants to be cold so since it will all ready be going ...
I am sure there is some additonal load, but I think in terms of operation it would be much cheaper.
Additonally, with the basic inefficiencies of electric baseboard I would think that installing hydronic would be a plus on the resale value ... or at least 'non impacting'.
I would personally steer clear (all other things being equal) of a home that had electric baseboards.
Richard (ROC)
--Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic.--
--AIM: ROConn |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4940
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 9:06 am: | |
What is the cost of putting in a loop to the attic? Plumbers are around $200 per hour per some posts here and you also have a lot of wall repairs, repainting, etc. to look into. Is $10,000 out of the question?
Wharf brings up another alternative, gas. In our house someone installed an unconnected gas line from the basement to the attic. I think it runs through the plumbing chase. Howabout a nice gas fired fireplace to get the chill off. |
Richard O'Connor
Citizen
Username: Roconn
Post Number: 206
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 9:15 am: | |
Bob, I kind of like gas fired fireplace (or one of those little wall mounted blueflame heaters)
Hmmmmmm
I think 10K is a lot high ....
you probably have 2 plumbers one day (maybe 2) to add the loop or riser and radiation
1 day to patch the walls and paint
I think you're high by half again .. thinking it would be a 5K job probably ... (but I can't price out the plumber ...)
Richard (ROC)
--Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic.--
--AIM: ROConn |
grw
Citizen
Username: Grw
Post Number: 256
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 1:46 pm: | |
A friend of mine just installed a vent free fireplace (pretty inexpensive) in his basement, he loves it, it warms the room in about 10 minutes, he has to keep the flame low because it gets too hot. |
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