| Author | Message | ||
     lumpynose Citizen Username: Lumpyhead Post Number: 758 Registered: 3-2002  |
What some high school students think about deleveling is irrelevant to me. I asked my high school student and she told me it would be a bad idea. She ended up in a lower level Chemistry class than all her other classes and is blown away by the nonsense that goes on. No learning, a lot of goofing around and constant attempts at controlling the class which is futile. She told me it's a good thing her all her other classes are with children interested in learning. But yeah, let's leave $80 million dollars budgets and decisions about how to run schools to the students. I would have loved that in HS. | ||
| John Davenport Citizen Username: Jjd Post Number: 147 Registered: 2-2003 |
Alexander was not a good student. Take it from Aristotle's recollections. Anyway, I repeat that I think having a current student in CHS (or maybe two, who could alternate so that neither had to attend too many meetings) elected to serve as a non-voting member on the Board would be a good thing. My opinion about college students doing lots of paid work, volunteering, and socializing combined during college differs a bit from the norm today. Anyway, under our law an 18 year old is indeed eligible to run. Gifford's poster at Memorial Park clearly said that he would do away with all leveling. Even Alexander would have thought that crazy. So we really have a race in which you should choose up to three out of five candidates. I would rule out Burch for extremism myself; I just do not trust her to be at all critical of the current administration, apart from my disagreements with her on the language arts curriculum (or non-curriculum). This is unfortunate, since otherwise she is clearly very intelligent, informed, and motivated (and I'm sure a decent person). That leaves four. | ||
| John Davenport Citizen Username: Jjd Post Number: 148 Registered: 2-2003 |
PS Lumpy, you didn't mean to imply that Rowland would favor de-leveling the high school, did you? Doubtless he would favor any way possible and financially feasible to educate kids of all races and backgrounds really to be qualified to enter higher level classes, and AP classes. But trying to do this artificially by deleveling CHS? I'm quite confident that Rowland knows that would not in any way serve the interests of the kids it is alleged to serve. After all, college entrance and the job market are not delevelled! | ||
| lumpynose Citizen Username: Lumpyhead Post Number: 760 Registered: 3-2002 |
No, John- I don't think Rowland Bennett is for de-leveling at all. I just think that some posters just couldn't vote for him based on his political affiliation. Lots of irrational hate there for such a intelligent and supposedly tolerant crowd. Where is the poster in the Park? | ||
| nan Citizen Username: Nan Post Number: 1189 Registered: 2-2001 |
John, Well, obviously you've been appointed the head ACE skid-greaser, but when did you pickup the "Official Spokesperson" for Alexander the Great spot? How does someone apply for that job? Will you next be claiming that Aristotle supported the use of scripted reading programs? I'm guessing they would have had to put Alexander the Great on Ritlin to get him to sit through an Open Court or Reading Mastery lesson. I know my kid would. You can chime along in your folksy, common sense tone, but Julia Birch is a moderate compared to Rowland, and maybe his running mate, the special ed expert, too. You are talking about someone who wants to rip out a long running program and replace it with an expensive product that is the total antithesis. And where is the evidence that that's the solution we need? I'm still waiting to hear from him about the low effect sizes for Open Court in the National Reading Panel Report. And I'm still waiting for you to tell us how we are supposed to pay for this supposedly "proven" program. I'd opt for the piano, instead. And give the kid a chance, already. Why are you so afraid of him for? I though you wanted fresh blood on the BOE? You can't get any fresher than that. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 952 Registered: 3-2003 |
Out comes the shocking truth: Nan supports Julia "I Hate Curricula and White Privilege" Burch and Billy "The Deleveling Kid" Gifford. John would vote for anyone else. Obviously, John "Greasy Skids" Davenport is a very bad person, so I'm shocked to find myself in agreement with him on pretty much everything. (Oh, wait a minute. I forgot: I'm a very bad person too--worse than John. Much, much worse.) Sincerely, J. "The Spider" Crohn | ||
| lumpynose Citizen Username: Lumpyhead Post Number: 761 Registered: 3-2002 |
Nan you hit it right on the head. A "kid" is running for the BOE. Who hasn't graduated high school yet, has no experience in budgets or contracts and has no real job. He is for total de-leveling the high school in a town with incredibly high taxes and a high school with mixed results. The deleveling will be the death of the school and the town, I can assure you, if only for perception purposes. PLUS what my HS student says quote: "You would freak out if you saw what goes on in my Chemistry class". Yes, I will get the word out about this "kid". I just wonder who's puppet he is. | ||
| cody Citizen Username: Cody Post Number: 489 Registered: 5-2001 |
I like the idea of an interaction between the Board of Ed and the high school, actually. There already is a Student Council at Columbia and having the officers rotate at Board of Ed. meetings as "non-voting" members might be an idea worth trying out. Certainly the Board of Ed. members should not be relying on the Superintendent as the supplier of information as to what is actually going on in the schools, and not everyone is comfortable (or logistically able) getting up at a BofE meeting and saying their piece in the 3-minute time allotment). Since the high school seems to be the focus of so much community attention, perhaps that is a valid starting point. | ||
| Nohero Citizen Username: Nohero Post Number: 2993 Registered: 10-1999  |
Hey, I have an idea. Let's all pay attention to the candidates and what they say, instead of playing "who belongs to who" games, or labeling someone a "puppet". | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1320 Registered: 6-2001 |
Nohero, you radical! John Davenport, Aristotle didn't have complaints about Alexander as a student until Alexander began disagreeing with him years later. The dispute? Aristotle regarded foreigners as barbarians, while Alexander did not mind intermixing cultures. So I wouldn't be so quick to assume Alexander the Great would think de-leveling was crazy. | ||
| Diversity Man Citizen Username: Deadwhitemale Post Number: 680 Registered: 5-2001 |
Gee, Aristotle is dead, a dead white male. And thanks for Greek history, lite. Didn't they have homo - geneous grouping, anyway? The kid, a typical narcissistic brat, wants us to take his opinions seriously, when he hasn't lived. De-level, when the only factor holding the majority of the better students and their parents in this district is that levelling keeps apart the students who make the effort to achieve in class from those who don't. Imagine advanced or level 4 grade work assigned to uncaring, disruptive delevelers, and the teachers teaching to them in the new nirvana that will be. I noticed a "crip" scrawl on the entrance to the High School today! Let's integrate Crip thought into Algebra 2 advanced, not to mention what happens to honest grading when delevelling is here to stay across the board in CHS! Will the "crip" mark be there Monday pm? harpo is nan is burch. DWM | ||
| Addy Citizen Username: Addy Post Number: 63 Registered: 12-2003  |
There should be a requirement that a person has at least paid taxes before running for office and voting to raise them. Heisenberg may have slept here | ||
| breal Citizen Username: Breal Post Number: 300 Registered: 6-2002 |
I like the kid's moxy, and I hope my kids pick up lots of the stuff at CHS when they go there, but I'm with Addy. It costs real people real money to keep these schools open. I am interested in candidates whose moms and dads aren't still giving them lunch money. P.S. Mr. Gifford's adult handlers or whoever put him up to this to advance their ga-ga agenda now have a duty NOT to let him embarass himself. He's a kid. Jeez I hope there won't be MTV cameras. This has all the makings of some awful "reality" T.V. show. | ||
| nan Citizen Username: Nan Post Number: 1190 Registered: 2-2001 |
Jennifer, More of your made up stories. I thought you were ignoring me. How can I miss you if you won't go away? For the record: I have not stated that I support anyone yet. I'm annoyed that John Davenport, as well as you, are doing whatever you can to paint Julia Burch as an extremist. Based on her postings on MOL, I'd say she is nothing of the sort. I am looking forward to hearing what she has to say as a candidate since I think she's smart as a whip and not beholden to anyone. She's an independent thinker and she can see through the BS. On many, not all, threads I have been in agreement with her, so naturally that's where I lean. I don't support Rowland based on his position in ACE, which I consider offensive on many counts--don't get me started. I don't know what his views are on any other issue, or if he even has any other issues. The idea of a "one issue" candidate also troubles me, unless the one issue is money. Money is really the big issue for this campaign. I'm mostly interested in the candidates that have a financial vision for the future of public education in our district. Language arts and leveling are smaller potatoes. So, I'm looking forward to hearing what Roland's running mate has to say, and especially to the Miller guy who reportedly knows a lot about $$$$$$$$$$$$. I don't know anything about the "kid" except what has been written on MOL. For all I know he is nothing more than a young upstart that needs a good slap upside the head. But, the immaturity expressed in this thread, by his elders, is hardly hurting his case. I'm defending him because he's become an unfair underdog. There is no reason an 18 year old can't serve on the BOE if people elect him to do so. This nonsense about degrees and age is nothing but a straw man. Since when do people with age or degrees or large vocabularies automatically possess responsibility and wisdom? A cursory look through the MOL Ed threads should dispel that myth, pronto. Let the kid have his say and compare him to the other candidates and take your pick. | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 2825 Registered: 5-2001  |
Aside from this kid labeling our school as a "racist institution", what is this kid's experience with managing an $80 million dollar budget? Not to mention "deleveling". How many adults even have this kind of experience? My share of school taxes each year is over $6,500. So, I don't think so. I hope this is just some kind of radical joke from the loonies. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 955 Registered: 3-2003 |
"How can I miss you if you won't go away?" I regret my continued existence affords you yet another opportunity to belch out plagiarized one-liners. "I'm annoyed that John Davenport, as well as you, are doing whatever you can to paint Julia Burch as an extremist." Actually, I haven't said much at all about Burch lately. Rather, your own tacit endorsement of her candidacy lends the impression that Burch appeals to extremists. | ||
| John Davenport Citizen Username: Jjd Post Number: 154 Registered: 2-2003 |
Yes Aristotle would definitely have supported sounding out words. I will have to comb his Rhetoric for some evidence. But Aristotle had both eyes and ears open, and an open mind on many subjects (through not barbarians -- good defense of Alexander on that one!). And in my view, it is pretty hard to miss that most kids need to sound out words to learn to read (though a mind sufficiently brainwashed on new age whole language mumbo jumbo can blind itself to just about anything...) But Nan, it is fine for us to disagree on this issue, and I don't respect you the less for your reading of the research. However, why don't you just say that you disagree with Rowland and ACE? To say that a position is offensive just because you don't agree with it? This worries me! I'm also scratching my head over your insinuation that any published, peer-reviewed, and widely tested language arts curriculum (unlike ours on all three counts) would cost gazillions of dollars? How much do you actually think it would cost to implement, say, Open Court in our elementary schools (though I do not actually favor that package...)? This is an honest question. By the way, no one has appointed me to anything, and I would not presume to appoint myself. I'm simply expressing my personal opinions, but I agree with Nohero: let's hear from the candidates. I am simply indicating to whom I would pay the most attention at this point. I'm content to let Julia stand on her MOL record. (Someone should undertake to compile and print out all her substantive posts). As for Gifford, we can hear what he has to say, but he is not a serious candidate in my view. Despite that, he has made me think about the value of a student non-voting member on the School Board. | ||
| John Davenport Citizen Username: Jjd Post Number: 157 Registered: 2-2003 |
PS Rowland doesn't have to prove that a published, validated LA curriculum is superior to what we have now. Why is the burden of proof not on defenders of our curriculum to show that it is better, since it is so non-standard? They will certainly not be able to prove that, since our curriculum has not been subjected to any large-scale evaluations, other than ACE's (where it did not fare too well at all...). As I have said, and will keep repeating until Nan or Julia or both dare to answer it, why not try a published curriculum and see if there is a significant improvement? Too scared to put it to the test?????!!!! Also, Board elections are not officially partisan. I'm a Democrat, and Rowland's party affiliation doesn't matter to me. I trust most people who served in the Peace Corps, and Rowland has far more than his fair share of common sense as well. So I wouldn't listen to any scare tactic placing Rowland on the far right. That's nonsense. And my impression is that he is anything but a one-issue candidate! | ||
| nan Citizen Username: Nan Post Number: 1192 Registered: 2-2001 |
John, No one in this debate is against kids sounding out words, although often the emphasis in reading may be on reading larger word chunks since research shows that onset and rhyme is more easily learned than individual letter sounds blended together. In other words, it's often better to teach a kid that the word part is composed of a \p\ and the word \art\ than to have them sound out \p\a\r\t\. I've discussed this on this board many, many, many times. I can only assume that you continue to say such things to try to discredit me, to scare parents, and to continue to fuel a manufactured crisis in order to get your guys elected. My question to you would be, "Why should sounding out be the ONLY strategy taught? " I'd love to see our LA program get a good objective review, but that grossly biased ACE review is not worth the paper it's photocopied on. It was written by Direct Instruction advocates, and nothing but a direct instruction program could pass. It does not even consider essential program components such as writing. The written reviewer comments focus on the lack of decodable books and scope and sequence and leaving too much for teacher decision making. None of these were found to be requirements of an effective program by the NRP report--the report the Reading First folks are SUPPOSED to be using as their guide. ACE offends me for the same reasons Reading First offends me (see the NCLB thread for details)--and they are related because the ACE review employs the same reviewers and testing instruments. The ACE group basically could not get their way with the LA program so they called in the Feds. A bunch of educational vigilantes yelling "I'm telling MOM on you." No wonder you think the kid is a threat. It's no secret that our program has not been verified by a large-scale, scientifically validated evaluation. But everyone should also know that neither have those ACE recommended programs. Unless you want to count the dismal effects found for them in the NRP report. But, so far no one wants to comment on that one. I'm disturbed that you are you asking ME for the cost of scripted programs. Shouldn't the advocates of them be providing us with costs and a plan to pay for them? I know they are expensive because I ordered the McGraw Hill catalog and checked out the prices. I did my homework. How come you and your candidates are not doing theirs? | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1323 Registered: 6-2001 |
John Davenport, I am mystified by your certainty that Aristotle would have supported sounding out words to the exclusion of whole word recognition, and that what we can piece together of his thoughts on teaching Rhetoric are relevant to teaching elementary school reading in M/SO as opposed to just arguing about it. (I'm trying to save you some homework.) The spoken Greek of Aristotle's day contained many sounds not found in Greek writing, and even today requires whole word recognition. Also, alphabetic writing (the kind Aristotle used in his school) was not the first Greek script. It was predated by other writing forms. In fact, nowhere in history do you find an alphabetic writing system arising directly from the spoken language. It is always a secondary development to other forms of writing (and I don't mean only pictograms). The issue is further complicated by the fact that Greek letters, unlike English letters, are actually whole words in themselves. People who are in favor of changing the curriculum in M/SO to a phonics intensive program keep claiming they represent "the scientific view" or "common sense" and now Aristotle! But when I poke into all those claims, I repeatedly find them all wanting. In refreshing my memory about the development of literacy in Greek, I came across this from Steven L. Strauss, who does research on linguistics, neurology and contemporary reading instruction. He wrote: "Nothing in the nature of English spelling argues for or against any particular method of teaching reading, whether intensive phonics, meaning centered or otherwise." I think to assume that simply switching to another curriculum is the biggest part of the answer leaves at least 60 percent of everything that might make for successful school reform unexamined. As Socrates almost said, an unexamined school reform is not worth any amount of taxes it would cost to have it. |
