| Author |
Message |
    
ashear
Citizen
Username: Ashear
Post Number: 1030
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 9:44 am: |     |
Ahh, this reminds me why I am so glad I switched to Hoboken and the Path. But I did my time at Penn and there is a difference between the anoying people Michael describes stading in his way and the jerks who shove you out of the way to get one step ahead of you on the stairs for a train leaving in 10 minutes, and there are plenty of them (and I grew up riding the subway, so I know my way around an obnoxious crowd, the commuters are much worse than the native NYers.) |
ligeti
Citizen
Username: Ligeti
Post Number: 96
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 12:39 pm: | |
I agree, there seems to be a distinction between experienced, native NYers and the commuters. The commuters, the ones like Janay, that go around muttering 'F#&@ Off' and bullying their way through crowds are usually (originally) out of towners who can't believe they're not in Kansas anymore. They go to pieces when things don't function exactly as they should. Most New Yorkers are accustomed to it, and deal with it in non-aggressive ways. Just a personal observation, not a scientific analysis. |
Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 197
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 12:53 pm: | |
Born and bred locally.
Been commuting for 15 years now.
I only ever reply, I don't instigate.
If people stay out of my business I stay out of theirs (with the possible MOL exception).
I don't see how responding to someone telling me to slow down when its absolutely none of their business what I'm doing, and they are the ones in the way in the first place, is going to pieces.
I did keep running for my train after all.
I don't know what New York you live in, but to claim that most NY'ers "are accustomed to it, and deal with it in non-aggressive ways" Shows that you really don't know New York.
NY'ers dealing wih it in non-agressive ways... thats a laugh. |
mellie
Citizen
Username: Mellie
Post Number: 429
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 1:22 pm: | |
ilegit - what a stereotyper you are - now they all men from Kansas! |
Joan
Citizen
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 2571
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 4:55 pm: | |
Michael:
Your posts on this thread remind me of the Ultimate Frisbee team that literally ran into me yesterday while I was walking down Oakview Avenue on my way home from the train station. The youth who collided with me - hard - didn't even stop to see if I was ok. He and the rest of the pack just kept on running.
When I told my son about what had happened, he told me that I was at fault for not getting out of the way when they started to run. It is his position that this stretch of the Oakview Avenue sidewalk is part of the 1-mile running track in Memorial Park and the runners have the right of way.
From that discussion and the one I have just finished reding on this thread, I am forced to conclude that the question of who is in the right is largely a matter of perception. Personally, I vote for the perception which results in the least physical injury to participants and by-standers. |
Joan
Citizen
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 2572
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 5:04 pm: | |
NJT isn't entirely to blame for the commuter problem at Penn Station. Neither are the management of Penn Station or the MTA. All could work to reduce the problem by providing trains with enough seats to meet the demand, scheduling trains more frequently (missing the train when I last commuted through Penn Station meant waiting an entire hour until the next one), doing a better job of assigning regular tracks to NJT trains, providing access paths through the station which are reserved for ticketed passengers whose trains have been called, coordinating subway and train service, etc.
However, until we reach the point as a community where every second of our time is no longer budgeted to the degree that missing a train (or even taking a few moments longer to move from point A in the station to point B) is going to throw off our entire life forever, the conditions observed in Penn Station will continue. |
mfpark
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 234
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 8:17 am: | |
Another part of the problem is the incredibly small, concave video monitors in the NEW NJ Transit area. What idiot conceived of those? I had larger TV screens at home in the early 1960's!
They are so small, and the track assignments get lost in the edges, so you have to stand directly in front of them to see them. But, oops, there is a column in front of most of them. So, you get hundreds of people jostling to get close to the monitors, who then have to break at the same time for a randomly assigned track with 2 minutes to get downstairs.
You would think that in a NEW terminal someone would have had the sense to build in large, visible, flat plasma screen monitors! But, no, they take up all sorts of room with that ridiculous moving model. And don't even get me started on the constantly leaking HVAC system.
How much of our commuting tax dollars went into this boondoggle? |
akb
Citizen
Username: Akb
Post Number: 165
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 9:26 am: | |
In the interests of fairness, the last two nights I used the 7th Ave NJ Transit terminal and it was much more civilised (although still overcrowded). No pushing and shoving at all. Yay commuters! ;-) |
ashear
Citizen
Username: Ashear
Post Number: 1037
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 9:37 am: | |
MFpark - I totally agree. Those monitors are one of the stupidest things I've every seen. |
ligeti
Citizen
Username: Ligeti
Post Number: 99
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 10:17 am: | |
The problem is that people who are running and hyperventilating assume everyone needs to adjust to their own private condition of panic. My guess: 99.9999% of the people who walk leisurely make it to the train on time. Can anyone argue with that? How many dawdlers do you see standing on the platform as the train pulls out? Almost none! So when Janay says "they are the ones in the way in the first place," I think you can see root of the problem. |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 2396
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 10:23 am: | |
Joan, I disagree that right and wrong can be discerned from whatever arrangement leads to the least injury. I think we should look at the intended use of a space. Since the sidewalk you were on is for pedestrians to get from one place to another, and since the athletes' use of it is at your expense, they were in the wrong. However, if you were to walk casually across a hockey rink and got injured, you'd be in the wrong, because you were using the rink inappropriately.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
|
xavier67
Citizen
Username: Xavier67
Post Number: 371
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 10:31 am: | |
I'm totally with Michael Janay, who's brought a breath of fresh, honest air to this discussion. Dolts and dopes who stand in the middle of the waiting area should all be prepared to be run over by Michael and I.
And Michael, what about all those stroller pushers who take up enormous space both at the waiting area and the stairs going down to the tracks? Sometimes, when the train is about the close its doors and I'm stuck behind slow moving mothers saddled with screaming kids and strollers, I wish I could just push them over the side!
And don't even get me started on the geriatric types moving at half-speed. They also seem so unaware of their surroundings. All I can say is, if you can't observe basic rules about staying out of people's way, stay at home! Or take the freaking bus!
It galls me to think these idiots who get in my way just don't seem to understand how valuable my time is, especially to me. They don't seem to understand because of my valued time sometimes I have to leave my office at the last minute to catch my train. They don't understand that when I'm running late, all that flash before my eyes is my child's beautific face, imploring me, "Daddy, when are you coming home???" It's something these dolts and dopes can't quite understand (even if they have children who are waiting for them!).
Once again, get the f**k out of our way!
|
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 2397
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 10:37 am: | |
So then any wrongdoing justifies any further retributive wrongdoing, to any degree? Gosh, I'm teaching my kids that violence is not justified, even after provocation.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
|
Dave
Citizen
Username: Dave
Post Number: 6571
Registered: 4-1998
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 10:43 am: | |
My pet peeve is escalator loiterers: people who stop to look around once they reach the top or bottom of an escalator completely oblivious to the pile-up of people behind them. |
ligeti
Citizen
Username: Ligeti
Post Number: 100
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 10:45 am: | |
boob xavier 67,
IT'S A STROLLER! WITH SMALL CHILDREN! What a drip you are. You're a potty mouth, too. I'll be looking for you and Janay. And if I see you trampling senior citizens and small children, let me tell you, you're in for the delay of your life.
Signed,
Ligeti
Tireless Public Defender of Civility & Chivalry |
mellie
Citizen
Username: Mellie
Post Number: 430
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 10:49 am: | |
man o man ilegit, irony sure is a lost art |
xavier67
Citizen
Username: Xavier67
Post Number: 372
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 11:07 am: | |
No one can delay me, ligeti. Especially if I have Michael Janay next to me. We'll never allow you and your horde of dawdlers to miss our trains. Just try us. The battlefield will be strewn with broken strollers, bloodied binkies and senior citizen passes. In the end, Michael and I will be laughing in our seats as our train pulls out of Penn Station, taking us to the awaiting arms of our beloved children. |
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 2857
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 11:14 am: | |
What's a binkies? |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4953
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 11:15 am: | |
X-man, a new side to your personality? 
|
Dave
Citizen
Username: Dave
Post Number: 6573
Registered: 4-1998
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 11:16 am: | |
A broken bonkie |
ligeti
Citizen
Username: Ligeti
Post Number: 101
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 11:25 am: | |
For starters, kids, spell my name correctly: Ligeti.
I am currently organizing a COD (Cooperative of Dawdlers). We will be practicing, in my backyard, a strategic group program of herding and clumping. After finely honing our technique, we will find you at Penn during rush hour, and assess whether you are in the act of cursing at and/or trampling on senior citizens and children in order to get your prissy little aisle seat. Then we will surround you, fall in your power path en masse like a bunch of dull-witted lummoxes, and cause you the certain delay you deserve.
|
xavier67
Citizen
Username: Xavier67
Post Number: 373
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 11:35 am: | |
LOL! |
Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 200
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 11:43 am: | |
First off, I have never ever trampled anyone.
I have lept over a few people, but I have never pushed shoved trampled or even otherwise touched anyone.
I bob and weave. And I must say, I'm damn good at it.
I have no problem with strollers, or the elderly... as long as they aren't plopped down in the middle of the hall at rush hour. When people are doing their best to get from one place to the other, everyone should do their best to assist them. How do you think the elderly feel about having to keep saying "excuse me" to the oblivious morons in their way. They can't bob and weave well. For many its exhausting just to walk in a straight line. Many of them are softspoken and the oblivious morons don't even hear their pleas to get by. Every now and then I see someone in a wheelchair trying to navigate the oblivious throngs, and I feel awful for them, the looks these people give them (if they even notice) for just wanting to get by makes me sick. People with kids and strollers are the same, it amazes me that people will just stand there and stare at a mom with a stroller and a kid in tow and not even move out of her way in the least to make it easier for her to get through. These people are completely different from what I'm complaining about, because they hate the blockers too. It can be annoying to be stuck behind one of these examples, but it is understandable, they are doing their best, just like I am. Idiots standing in the middle of the hall reading or blankly staring at the monitor are a completely different story. When you are standing around waiting MOVE AS FAR TO THE SIDE AS POSSIBLE... try to keep the aislway as clear as possible. I realize it can be crowded, but come on. Whether you are young, old, pregnant, with kids, whatever... LET PEOPLE GET TO THEIR TRAINS!
Joan,
Your example is terrible. Its awful that some kid collided with you, and the fact he didn't even apologize is adding insult to injury. But that has nothing to do with this discussion. An example that is more appropriate is this... You are walking to the bus (or jitney), and a group of kids are standing (or playing frisbee, or whatever), blocking the sidewalk so you can't get through or go around. By the time you manage to get through the crowd of kids who are absolutely oblivious to the fact you are trying to get through, and are actually suprised that someone would actually walk on a sidewalk- you arrive to see the bus pulling away and now have to wait another 30 minutes for the next one.
Would you be upset? Would you think that those kids shouldn't be blocking the sidewalk? Would you blame them for your missing your bus? Or is it your own fault?
Ligeti,
It is hilarious how simple you are to not realize when people are on your side (xavier67).
As for the "delay of my life" to quote the greatest President of modern times "Bring it on".
|
Dave
Citizen
Username: Dave
Post Number: 6574
Registered: 4-1998
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 11:47 am: | |
I never knew FDR said that. |
Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 201
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 11:48 am: | |
X-
I will be testing out my new spiked body armor and jet pack tonight.
Interested? |
Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 203
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:01 pm: | |
Dave,
FDR was an awful president, antisemitic, racist, homophobic. His economic policies are the main reason we are in such a mess today.
But he did save the world- Which does balance much of that out.
Hmmm, who does that sound like? |
Joan
Citizen
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 2575
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 4:51 pm: | |
Michael:
The kids in my example were blocking the sidewalk - totally! They were standing in a large clump totally covering the sidewalk between the cross walk by Valley Street and the first group of hedges but facing mostly in my direction. They must have been very focused on what they were doing if they didn't see me before they started running.
My first concern as I came along Oakview was how I was going to make it safely past them (through them?) to the corner and across the street. (I am over 55-years-old and my best bobbing and weaving days are behind me.) Suddenly, the whole group of them start sprinting at me blocking the entire side walk and moving fast. Since I was walking relatively slowly and carrying what for me is a heavy briefcase and since I was walking towards the middle of the sidewalk I had no place to go to get out of the way so I just stopped, frozen in place. The first runners tried to remain on the sidewalk but they did veer enough to more or less pass me on either side. The runners in the middle of the pack were less skillful. Thus, I am sure these kids likened me to your impediment-causing commuters blocking them from their geographic goal.
I am glad you posted your clarification regarding support for the mothers with strollers and seniors who may be moving a bit more slowly. It makes me see you in a far more positive light.
By the way, have you considered taking the 7th Avenue train rather than the 8th Avenue? Depending on where you are coming from (comparative walk to the subway), exiting the subway at the new 7th Avenue concourse can take two to three minutes off your commute time. You will be entering the station near track 13, rather than track 21 and the NJT monitor near the 7th Avenue subway entrace/exit gives ample warning of track assignment before you enter the station.
Tom:
I was being facitious. Obviously it is important that people develop good manners and learn how to handle themselves in overcrowded conditions. |
Lizziecat
Citizen
Username: Lizziecat
Post Number: 193
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 7:08 pm: | |
Someday, Xavier, you will knock down, or seriously injure, or even perhaps kill someone in your selfish and insane dash to your train. Then some kid's mommy or daddy will never get home.
And, believe or not, someday you too will be old and slow. I hope that someone like you will knock you down then. I hope you break a hip. |
Maplewoody
Citizen
Username: Maplewoody
Post Number: 497
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 8:02 am: | |
I hate the dawdlers, derelicts and bums that hang around the doors leading down to Penn Station.
(across from the Post Office) I wish they all would get on a bus to warmer Atlanta or Miami!
They're always in MY way! |
mellie
Citizen
Username: Mellie
Post Number: 438
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 8:42 am: | |
there's a whole bunch of people that hang out in Penn Station every day and they are really blocking eveyones progress. I wish they would get rid of them.
oh, hold on, that's NJT management I'm talking about.. |
argon_smythe
Citizen
Username: Argon_smythe
Post Number: 125
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 2:32 pm: | |
Ligeti, this is a tangent, but could you please organize a coalition to drive up and down Prospect Ave at the posted 25MPH speed limit. With a rotating schedule you could cover a full 18 to 24 hour set of shifts, and you can easily achieve a maximum of annoyance with minimal effort.
Another good program would be to station people at crosswalks in Maplewood and SO villages to cross back and forth as traffic approaches.
Forget Penn Station, its inherent design flaws do the job of obstruction for you. I doubt any concerted effort could make it worse than it already is. I'd say you could hack the computer systems so that the track numbers aren't posted till the last minute, but some other rogue organization already got to it apparently.
|
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 5007
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 3:35 pm: | |
So you think Michael and Xavier are bad?
When we first moved into the World Trade Center back in the mid 1980s the elevator to the Observation Deck dumped the tourists in front of our elevator bank where they tended to congregate, mill around, sit on the floor and otherwise make a pain of themselves.
One of my co-workers at that time was the prototypical Type A commuter and he took great exception to their behavior. He would exit the elevator yelling, "out of my way you GD SOBs" while swinging his attache case, one of the ones with brass corners, from side to side knocking tourists out of the way like bowling pins!
While I am the type who lines up to get off the train five minutes out of the station on the whole I would prefer to leave five minutes early to avoid having to go back to my football days. |
ligeti
Citizen
Username: Ligeti
Post Number: 104
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 4:32 pm: | |
Argon Smythe - That's a good idea, which I'll turn to after I finish my current project: enrolling volunteers to stand at each corner on Ridgewood Road holding readable street signs that are visible from a distance of greater than 3 inches. All will be equipped with flashlights (with my logo) which they'll shine on their personal signs after dark. With this volunteer staff in place 24/7, people will actually be able to identify street names as they drive down Ridgewood! I know this is a bold, visionary concept, but there is currently no way of knowing this information unless you use binoculars and a searchlight while driving this ridiculous route. I will personally be removing the existing signs, as they are a serious hazard. All - please let me know which 8 hour shifts you would like to volunteer for. All the daytime slots are taken. |
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