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Sylad
Citizen
Username: Sylad
Post Number: 463
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 9:04 am: | 
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Why can't we break out the Fire and Police costs from the village taxes and create a Fire and Police District tax/fee. It would be a line item on the tax bill,no increase just the normal amount. If done could we force SHU to pay this Fire and Police District tax/fee? |
e roberts
Citizen
Username: Wnwd00
Post Number: 28
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 1:58 pm: |
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i am not totally sure but i am of the understanding that SHU would still be exempt from this fee as a religous organization. |
M. Scott
Citizen
Username: Villageidiot
Post Number: 75
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 2:25 pm: |
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The only way to really get someone's true support and understanding of the situation the SORS is currently in is to wait until they need an ambulance at 2 or 3 in the morning for an actual emergency. And the primary ambulance is out at SHU attending to an underage student that is drunk and the school is trying to pass the liability of an intoxicated minor off to the township's services, while tying up your volunteers for a needless response. |
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 3037
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 11:46 pm: |
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I'm not a resident of the S.O. portion of our two towns, but if it's not too presumptious of me ...
Sylad - In N.J., a fire district serves a smaller portion of a larger municipality. For example, a built-up "town section" of a mostly rural township. I don't believe state law provides for a "police district", that is, a separately-funded force for a portion of a municipality.
e roberts - Seton Hall is exempt due to its status as an educational institution. Any public or private university would have the same status.
That having been said, it would be better if Seton Hall made a payment commensurate with the value of the property it occupies. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4973
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 7:46 am: |
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A fair number of colleges have their own police force made up of fuly sworn officers with full police powers. The two largest are at Columbia in NYC and the University of Chicago, both of which are surrounded by high crime areas. From the recent news about crime around Rutgers in New Brunswick it appears that they also have a dedicated police force.
Why not Seton Hall? |
just me fromsouthorange
Citizen
Username: Jmfromsorange
Post Number: 198
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 9:14 am: |
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the state colleges and univ. have their own police forces as well. i think if a school is a private school, no matter what grade level, they should be required to pay taxes. |
kevin
Citizen
Username: Kevin
Post Number: 224
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 9:14 am: |
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Getting back to the original topic....
Didn't Seton Hall just sell or is selling a piece of property on Centre Street? It was a large house on a large piece of property. The asking price was around $800,000. In private hands, the property should bring in considerable tax revenue.
If anything, this new purchase could be thought of as a land swap and will probably not have much in the way of tax ramifications.
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M. Scott
Citizen
Username: Villageidiot
Post Number: 80
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 10:54 am: |
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The following NJ educational istitutions fund their own sworn police forces: From the state of NJ website, the info looked out of date if one or two are missing.
Rutgers (all three majore campuses)
Kean University
William Paterson University
Montclair State University
The College of NJ
Essex Co. College
UMDNJ
Stevens Inst.
NJIT
Middlesex County College
Monmouth University
Brookdale Comunity College
As a big supporter for more police and as a former SHU student. I have to say SHU does not need their own sworn police force (I always want more cops, but SHU PD would be a bad idea) Seton Hall is notorious for playing favortism and being more concerned with the school's Image, less so with what is best for victims of crime. SOPD is an outsider to that campus and that is important when events occure on campus...However, I do beleive that SHU needs to fund police positions within the sopd or provide some sort of assistance to this Village for the services that are provided and regularly utilized by the campus community. |
LibraryLady(ncjanow)
Citizen
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 1284
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 11:51 am: |
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Guess we're not the only ones!
http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/03/16/taxing.universities.ap/index.html
Cities challenging university tax status
Tuesday, March 16, 2004 Posted: 11:32 AM EST (1632 GMT)
Duquesne University purchased this apartment building in Pittsburg for use as a residence hall. The city is challenging the tax-exempt status of the dorm.
PITTSBURGH, Pennsylvania (AP) -- As part of a multiyear plan to boost enrollment, Duquesne University bought a $22 million apartment building this year and converted it into housing for 750 students.
The purchase means more space for the Roman Catholic university -- and the loss of another taxable property for Pittsburgh, something city officials say the financially struggling city can't afford. So Pittsburgh is challenging the tax-exempt status of the dorm, and considering taking the fight to other universities.
Nancy Chiller Janow
On a coffee break..or something like it.
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doublea
Citizen
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 537
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 12:01 pm: |
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Pittsburgh (my hometown) is on the brink of bankruptcy. |
Lizziecat
Citizen
Username: Lizziecat
Post Number: 196
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 12:26 pm: |
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Maybe there should be a moratorium on the sale of any more town property to Seton Hall. |
SoOrLady
Citizen
Username: Soorlady
Post Number: 454
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 1:10 pm: |
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Lizziecat: Why? As I stated before, Mr. Rosner says that they pay a portion of the taxes on all their off-campus properties in the form of a PILOT - last year, although they are not obligated to do so, they paid around $150,000 and the money went directly to the town. I know that people think they should be paying more - and in the instance of making a monetary gift to specific services like the fire dept & rescue squad, I agree.
But - I don't think that South Orange is really taking advantage of having a University in our town. We should attract stores that cater to that age group. Since parking is such a premium, both in town and on campus, perhaps we should offer a jitney a couple of days a week to bring employees and students into town for lunch - and while they're there they might shop in a couple stores. The University offers some great theatre, music, and literary events for those who wish to take advantage of them. Our high school students are welcome to use their library. Our high school track team has used their field house. Two of my kids' graduation ceremonies were in Walsh Gym. I'm sure that there are more benefits that I don't know about. So, I guess my point is that I don't understand the negative thinking of the majority of people who post on this board. |
e roberts
Citizen
Username: Wnwd00
Post Number: 34
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 1:19 pm: |
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Soorlady,
you must not live in the immediate surrounding area of the university. if you talk with people they do you will here them talk about consistent problems with loud music, garbage, loud students at very late hours and many other quality of life issues.
in addition to these issues there is the abuse the town services we are refering to. so they pay a portion of taxes on their off campus real estate. well very little of the town resources the town uses come from these properies. they come from the main campus, the thefts, assualts, false fire alarms, medical calls almost all occur on the main campus. |
SoOrLady
Citizen
Username: Soorlady
Post Number: 455
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 1:50 pm: |
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e-roberts: true, I don't live in the immediate area, but I'm not far. At one time there was a house a few doors down from us that housed SHU students - apart from a couple of spring toga parties we hardly knew they were there. I guess times have changed and I'm not sure how I'd handle the quality of life issues you mentioned.
I think the landlords have some responsibility to require civil behavior from their tenents and perhaps a clause stating that if the police are called more than 3 times during the lease period for loud, unrully behavior they're out. And I think the town has a responsibility to make the landlords accountable.
I have no idea how often the incidents you describe occur at the university. We all use our emergency services, and I suppose it follows that in a university community those calls might be more frequent than the town's rate - which is why I think that they should make contributions to the fire dept and rescue squad.
Despite the negatives, I still see the University as a plus.
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Marc
Citizen
Username: Bautisma
Post Number: 153
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 2:47 pm: |
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e roberts - I agree that Seton Hall should contribute more to the town, but I think you're over exaggerating the problems that you listed above. I recently moved, but have lived in the area of the school. It is a ghost town late at night, nothing compared to the surrounding areas of schools like Rutgers or Penn State.
Do you have any numbers of the false fire alarms, assaults, and medical calls that occur on the campus each year.
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e roberts
Citizen
Username: Wnwd00
Post Number: 35
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 3:49 pm: |
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not off the top of my head i do not have the exact numbers and for other reasons i am not going to get into the numbers that i think however i would encourage you to seek out these numbers. |
M. Scott
Citizen
Username: Villageidiot
Post Number: 83
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 5:20 pm: |
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THE exact data is available if you attend a public safety meeting...
Ask the SORS reps who frequent the board they will tell you its beyond reasonable.
SoOrLady: I disagree that we must pass the buck to the landlord...the Landlords typcially do not get a true representation of who will be residing at their property. Most students send their 3-5 most desirable tenants to lease and keep the others off the books. Most landlords are absentee in general, or are required to announce visits to their property. Landlords have a responsibility to a point, but some of these houses are just a joke, and 100 dollar trash fines or merging 6 noise summonses isn't the answer. |
SoOrLady
Citizen
Username: Soorlady
Post Number: 457
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 6:43 pm: |
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M. Scott - If I owned a property and the tenants were - for a better word - harassing the neighbors by violating the noise ordinance and leaving trash about I would feel an obligation to remove them. The ony way to do that with any expediancy would be to have a pre-existing clause in the lease. Absentee or not.. one needs to know what is going on.
If you don't feel the landlord is responsible and the fines and summonses are not "the answer" - what is? |
M. Scott
Citizen
Username: Villageidiot
Post Number: 86
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 8:11 pm: |
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If you were a landlord you might be responsible...but alas, most landlords in this town are not you and are just looking to make a quick buck off student stacking. Iggnorance is their defense, and I said they should have some blame, but not all of it. Student renters typically are not straight forward with the landlords and even if they are good tenants, whats to say they will be good nieghbors. |
talk-it-up
Citizen
Username: Talkitup
Post Number: 13
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 9:39 pm: |
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Question - If Seton Hall were not a religious institution then is it my understanding that they would have to pay taxes? Do they get any government funds? I read something in the Ledger that indicated Seton Hall Prep, because it was a religious school, had to return money that it was being given from the state.
If a religious insitution does not have to pay taxes, then where is the line drawn? Is there a limit to the percentage of a municipality that can be owned by a religious institution? One could reason that the village could slowly be bought out???? (Just a thought).
There must be some form of protection.
Also, it is not just Seton Hall, there are many residences, etc. owned by religious institutions and therefore exempt.
Perhaps the Village could provide a visual in a Gaslight. Perhaps a zoning map with greyed areas that are except. What is the before and after of such a picture. I do not think any of this should be taken as a negative statement against Seton Hall or any institution, but a look at how we support South Orange when the tax base is impacted by the except properties.
I also do not see anything wrong with the fact they should have there own police force. They should, however, be sworn to provide open records and report all situations.
Is a resident of Seton Hall able to vote in our elections? Are they able to register or is their home address 'Home'? |
doublea
Citizen
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 550
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 9:59 pm: |
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talk-it-up: Seton Hall is not exempted from taxes because it is a religious institution. It is exempt because it is an educational institution, as are all private colleges and universities. Although I agree with much of what you say, I think you confuse things by talking about separation of church and state.
I don't think you are the only one who makes this mistake. Many think the fact that Seton Hall is a Catholic school is the reason it is tax exempt. This is not correct. It would be exempt even if it had no religious affiliation.
I hope the above explantion at least clears things up. The same arguments made for having SHU make some payments for the main campus are made across the country in numerous college and university towns. Hope this helps. |
talk-it-up
Citizen
Username: Talkitup
Post Number: 15
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 11:23 pm: |
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So let's define categories:
Educational Institutions:
1. Any private school? Such as a Pingry or such..
2. Day care?
3. What about the Montessori School?
4. What about home schoolers residences?
But a private school is a business and makes a profit, I don't fully understand your statement?
Religious Institutions:
1. Churches
2. Temples
3. Other houses of worship
4. Residences for the above are exempt (because they are religious, they aren't educational?) But how many residences should be exempt. Wasn't the intent to provide housing for the religious leader?
Not for profit
1. The Animal Shelter (if it were on private property)
2. Group homes - Jespy, and others
3. Salvation Army -but I guess that's religious
4. What else could go here?
There are a lot of residential buildings that are tax exempt and it's not all Seton Hall.
Give examples of separation of church and state? 1) Seton Hall Prep could not take grant money and had to give it back...
2) Obvious things like no prayer in school
3) ??
There's more to all of this but maybe it's one of those things that has answers but maybe people are not comfortable with things that may not be politically correct. I don't know. There must be a limit. |
woodstock
Citizen
Username: Woodstock
Post Number: 551
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, April 1, 2004 - 12:47 am: |
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<warning - LONG post>
Talk-it-up,
To clarify doublea's comments, Seton Hall is exempt because they are a non-profit educational institution. I believe the same legislation that makes your contribution to your alma mater tax deductible to you, makes them tax exempt. Most colleges and universities (as well as private and parochial lower schools) are non-profits. I believe that very few respected, accredited schools are for-profit. Keep in mind that the definition of "non-profit" is a legal one, and typically not a financial one.
Your church/state comments are more based on ignorance (not meant as an insult) than on some attempted duplicity by the government or a religious institution. I'm a firm believer in separation of church and state. But I just don't see the connection between this separation and the questions you're raising.
Even if there were issues, these are issues much higher than our town or county. Many of them go well beyond our state.
Let me first state, I Am Not A Lawyer. Not am I a consititutional scholar. That said, this is my understanding. Separation of church and state is based the first line of the First Amendment which states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." This has been extended, via the 14th amendment, to mean any federal, state or local government or government agency. It has also been interpretted to mean any form of support for a religious group. But it's still a hotly debated questions (see the opposition to our President's Faith-based Initiatives).
As for whether Seton Hall students can vote here, if they can fulfill the residency requirements for registering in South Orange, then they can vote here. According to the NJ State website,
quote:Any person may register to vote who is:
-a U.S. citizen
-18 years of age by election day
-a resident of the state and county at least 30 days prior to the election
-not denied the right to vote because of idiocy, insanity, serving a sentence or is on parole or probation as a result of a indictable offense under the laws of this or another state or of the United States.
So it would seem that Seon Hall students can vote here. I'm not sure if there is an exemption if they live on campus or not. |
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