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Message |
    
mtierney
Citizen
Username: Mtierney
Post Number: 512
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 3:47 pm: |     |
I know it is very PC to find no one culpable of a crime. It is always someone else, some organization, etc. etc. This goes for rapists, murderers, child molesters, bank robbers, etc.
Anything goes if we can place the blame elsewhere. Next step is that the woman will be encouraged to sue the doctor and hospital.
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bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4963
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 3:53 pm: | |
According to the Scott Peterson case murder of an unborn fetus is murder, at least in liberal, left wing California.
Michael is correct. A hospital can't force anyone to stay or to undergo a procedure without a court order, which isn't going to happen in the time frame needed to save the Utah child.
I believe that the woman was at or near term, certainly in the third trimester. I don't think even the most vocal pro lifers would consider her decision either ethical or rationale. |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 587
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 3:56 pm: | |
She was mentally ill. (read the story ashear has linked to).
I think that explains it pretty well. |
Chasm
Citizen
Username: Chasm
Post Number: 162
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 5:38 pm: | |
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-03-12-mother-charged_x.htm
According to the article doctors say the baby would have lived had she gotten the C section when it was suggested, which was 2 days prior to the baby's death.
"Mentally ill" is too nice a term, and it implies that we should have sympathy for her, and "treat" her illness. Besides, so far it is only her attorney making that claim. No, this was murder, and she should go to jail. Read the article. She knew what she was doing.
thirdgearrocks |
rckymtn
Citizen
Username: Rckymtn
Post Number: 235
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 5:41 pm: | |
Dave -- your post is inaccurate and comes from a blatantly anti-Mormon source. I still don't understand how religious bigotry continues to be acceptable in this society where everything else somehow requires tolerance. What you did is similar to asking "was this woman black?" Why don't you go to the church's official website if you want the church's viewpoint? Otherwise it's like asking a vegetarian what you should buy at the butcher shop, or asking a tourist in NYC where to go for dinner.
As for the story, if you look around at the various news sources you'll discover this woman was a drug addict, perhaps was not in a very good state of mind when she was being advised by the hospitals, and that the only thing the hospital(s) could have done was petition the court for a guardian for her unborn children. We don't just go locking people up for their ill-informed and bad decisions, but apparently the prosecutor believes that murder was committed. The common definition of murder includes action or inaction taken with a depraved indifference for human life. That's what they charge people with who, do stupid things that endanger others, as this woman did. Perhaps she deserves our compassion for the terrible situation she was in and the consequences of the terrible choice she made, but that does not mean she didn't break the law and shouldn't be prosecuted.
By the way, before she decided what to do, she stepped outside the hospital for a smoke, and the surviving baby was born with traces of cocaine in its system. |
just me fromsouthorange
Citizen
Username: Jmfromsorange
Post Number: 186
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 6:43 pm: | |
i sure hope you're beung sarcastic. if not i hope you don't have kids. if you do have kids, well never mind...
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cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 1100
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 11:59 am:
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Why even put her under psychiatric care? Perfectly reasonable and legal choice she made. She has certain priorities that take precedence over the life of a child. It's not murder. She's far from alone. Who are we to judge? Roe V. Wade rocks. |
just me fromsouthorange
Citizen
Username: Jmfromsorange
Post Number: 187
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 6:45 pm: | |
do you have a link to this story anywhere online? why did the hospital want to do a c section? this does change things a little. she sounds selfish anyway if she's more concerned over a silly scar then the child.
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Earlster
Citizen
Username: Earlster
Post Number: 142
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:05 pm:
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One news piece I read said she didn't want the scar, then went hospital shopping to find one that would deliver without the C-Section. By the time whe arrived a the 3rd hospital the baby was dead.
What about the doctors in the first hospital that should have respected her choice for vaginal birth. They could have monitored the babies and maybe induced labor.
It is clearly her rigt to chose against a C-Section, it's not that she aborted the pregnancy or anything like that.
Also consider that she is probably quite griev strucken by the fact that she loast one of her babies.
Shame on the prosectution here, I wonder what their agenda is. Sounds very Ashcrofty to me. |
just me fromsouthorange
Citizen
Username: Jmfromsorange
Post Number: 188
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 6:47 pm: | |
are you for real?
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cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 1103
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:49 pm:
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And who the hell cares anyway? What's the big deal? So it's stillborn. Big whoop. If she didn't care if the kid lived or died, then I don't either. But if she wanted the kid to live, then I care. |
Joan
Citizen
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 2576
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 7:04 pm: | |
This woman was given the right to choose. Her choice resulted in the death of one of her babies but I doubt she knew in advance that this would be the outcome of her decision. It is really quite impossible for us to know sitting here at our keyboards just what her state of mind and her motivation were at the time. That comment about the scar sounds like it was calculated to sell newspapers and/or air time and the last time I looked, a finding of murder assumes premeditation.
Whatever her motivation, whatever her feelings regarding the outcome of her actions, she is going to have to live with them for the rest of her life. Ditto for the hospital personnel who turned her away and/or let her leave when she was full-term. |
shh
Citizen
Username: Shh
Post Number: 983
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 7:28 pm: | |
Reading the article (link above) it seems like the mother is not of "sound mind." She's got other children who are not under her care. Perhaps she never intended on keeping these babies at all anyway. I have to wonder why she didn't have an abortion in the first place.
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CageyD
Citizen
Username: Cageyd
Post Number: 88
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 11:48 pm: | |
Joan,
From what I heard reported on NPR the hospital required that she read and sign a document stating that she understood that to forego the c-section would dramatically increase the likelihood of her children being born with brain damage or be stillborn.
I only just heard about this story and am still seething, my initial (albiet visceral) reaction is take the surviving child away and take her ovaries as well. She is too stupid or vain to have custody of a child. |
luv2cruise
Citizen
Username: Luv2cruise
Post Number: 165
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 5:46 am: | |
Instead of getting a scar, she should have been torn apart while giving birth naturally. She doesn't deserve children. When vanity is more important than life, there's something definitely wrong with a person.
I wish she felt the pain of delivering an elephant!!!!
There's nothing like being on the ocean! |
Joan
Citizen
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 2578
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 8:54 am: | |
CageyD:
Given the story as reported, I agree that the woman acted from a motivation that makes a sane person sick.
It is highly unlikely that the hospitals would have been permitted legally to release a woman that close to delivery without getting her to sign some form of release. Unfortunately, that won't prevent the hospital staff involved from feeling that there must have been something more they could have said or done to prevent this tragedy. Given their training to try their best to preserve life, they are likely to in deep state of shock and mourning that won't go away soon if ever. |
Frost French
Citizen
Username: Frost
Post Number: 22
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 4:52 pm: | |
The choice the woman made is certainly morally reprehensible and disgusting. I have no doubt she is a sick, effed-up individual who, in effect, murdered her child. Even still, it is her body and her choice to make whether or not to have major surgery. This is not a case for the courts, period. |
court07040
Citizen
Username: Court07040
Post Number: 60
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 9:27 am: | |
Dave - I enjoyed your 3/12 post and link very much. Do you have any ant-gay, anti-jew, anti-asian, or any other "anti" websites that you can direct your readers to? |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2364
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 9:58 am: | |
What was wrong with Dave's 3/12 link? I read it and it seemed to outline the evolution of Mormon thinking with regard to mainstream medicine. The current position of the mainstream Mormon Church would appear to embrace modern medicine. Did I miss something? |
Dave
Citizen
Username: Dave
Post Number: 6584
Registered: 4-1998
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 10:01 am: | |
Look, I did a Google quick lookup based on a distant memory of a friend in college (a Mormon) who had the belief that much modern medicine was not required. I was not endorsing an entire web site by linking to it nor have I read any other pages on that site. The fact that this happened in Utah was the prompting for the question (and it was a question).
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Earlster
Citizen
Username: Earlster
Post Number: 145
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 2:05 pm: | |
justmefso,
I read the article on excite.com. Don't know if it is still there. |
lumpynose
Citizen
Username: Lumpyhead
Post Number: 809
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 2:48 pm: | |
I am pro-choice just for the record but this is a wild concept. If the woman wanted to abort one of her two children in the 9th month, she could legally. If someone caused her bodily harm which caused the death of her child, it would be murder (like the Laci Peterson case). So it is okay to end the life of a fetus as long as you are the one making the choice but murder if someone else does? |
clueless
Citizen
Username: Clueless
Post Number: 21
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 11:14 pm: | |
We are only exposed to parts of the story. So its hard to make the call.
What if the situation was a parent who had to donate a kidney to another family member for that person to live. Make it the son/daughter. If they refuse the surgery to donate the kidney is this immoral? Perhaps. IS it murder? Depends on your definition. Is it illegal, probably not. My memory is a little foggy, but I think this was a case that went before the courts and the courts would not force the other family member to donate the kidney.
Most of us in this situation wouldn't give a second thought to risking ourselves to save a loved one. The fact that this womam refused a C-section for what seems like a reason of vanity seems unthinkable to us, perhaps even immoral. But is the decision illegal? Probably not. |
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