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Message |
    
mediamaven
Citizen
Username: Mediamaven
Post Number: 27
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 1:37 pm: |     |
}By June I will leave Maplewood which has been my home since 1942. A number of factors have forced this change on me, not the least of which was the doubling of the property taxes on my home. These days, as I meet others of my generation, almost invariably, they tell me they too are moving.
My generation does not have children in a school system whose bloated costs represent much of the taxes we pay. Nothing it seems has made any progress toward reducing these costs and they will remain a burden for all the newcomers. Indeed, a young couple who moved to my street and had a baby decided to move away within the space of three or four year's time. So, both old and young are leaving.
Both are penelized for being unable to cope with the high costs of living here. The former whose taxes contributed to this town receive no break whatever.
For decades Maplewood was administered by men who paid close attention to maintaining its special qualities, but they were replaced by others who so disrupted this process that the turnover has accelerated to a rate that should be cause for concern for everyone.
There is a feeling the town is being divided between east and west, losing its cohesion. There is a feeling that a corosion is creeping in from the Newark and Irvington borders. I saw this happen to East Orange back in the 1960s and 70s. Today, that city no longer resembles the bustling, successful place it once was.
I am not happy to leave Maplewood, but I will be happy to not see anything similar happen to this jewel of a town.
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Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 2415
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 1:42 pm: | |
Sorry to read your story. Do you have a prediction? Do you foresee Maplewood becoming more like Millburn or more like Irvington? Or something else?
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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Michael K. Mc Kell
Citizen
Username: Greenerose
Post Number: 224
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 2:26 pm: | |
Best to you and yours.
Michael K. Mc Kell
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Joan
Citizen
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 2586
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 2:27 pm: | |
Mediamaven:
More and more of my friends, especially those who no longer have children in the shcool system are leaving maplewood for places with lower taxes and an over all lower cost of living. We may soon be joining in the exodus.
Maplewood has reached the point where many of it's residents, especially senior citizens and others on fixed incomes can no longer afford to live here.
Unfortunately, may of those leaving, like yourself, have made a long term commitment to this town and have contributed greatly to the "success" which is now pricing so many out the town they love.
I hope you find happinesss in your new destination.
You will be missed. |
NRL
Citizen
Username: Nrl
Post Number: 500
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 2:50 pm: | |
Joan, Its not just the seniors. Many young folks are being forced to make the decision also. As newcomers we thought we could live with the high taxes as long as we were getting more bang for our buck.
It seems the opposite. We dont even have a decent supermarket in our own town. We also were led to believe the reval was the end of tax increases for a while. We didnt realize the county would be digging into our pockets and raising our taxes again this year. When will it end? As a result we have re-evaluated our situation. We are going with the 5 year get in and out plan.
Its unfortunate. Its a nice town, but it seems to be waist deep in politics and is forced to bear the burden of newark and irvingtons financial and social problems. |
Arnomation
Citizen
Username: Arnomation
Post Number: 130
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 3:01 pm: | |
I hope we don't have to end up leaving because of taxes either but I guess it's all relative. Although the taxes are high, for us the alternative was to pay three times our tax bill in Private School tuition back in Brooklyn because the public school in the neighborhood where we were was pretty bad so right now it seems to us like we're saving thirty thousand a year not paying too much.
I hope we don't end up feeling the other way about it down the road although I suspect we might. I actually said to my wife just the other day that it will be a real drag when we retire and finally pay off the mortgage but still have to come up with over a thousand dollars a month to live here. I guess time will tell.
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Just Me Deb G
Citizen
Username: Deborahg
Post Number: 809
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 3:18 pm: | |
Arno, I'm with you. We looked in many communities, and while taxes here were higher than most, housing prices were substantially lower. The house we paid $400K for here would have cost $600K in Short Hills, $650k in Dobbs Ferry, and $700K in Greenwich. This is not to belittle the plight of folks who are being forced out--when our kids are out of school, we, too, will probably move at some point. Wish it wasn't so, but I think the people who say our town is outrageously overpriced haven't looked at the tri-state market for towns with comparable schools as a whole lately. |
Lizziecat
Citizen
Username: Lizziecat
Post Number: 194
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 3:38 pm: | |
My husband and I are both 61. We moved here with two small boys in 1969. Our children went throgh the excellent school system. Our taxes have doubled since we moved here. When our children were in school, no doubt a good portion of their education was funded by empty nesters whose children were no longer in school, paying high (for then)taxes. Now we, whose children are no longer in school, are paying high taxes to fund the education of other people's children. Fair is fair. Children--anyone's children--are more important than money. We're staying. |
sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 10834
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 3:44 pm: | |
Dearest MediaMaven,
I'm sorry to see you go and it's very sad to have long term residents move because of the horrible tax situation. I wish you great health and happiness wherever you go.
Hey Tom,
If you're reading this thread perhaps you can tell Mediamaven to stop whining about what drove him out of town. Maybe if he just one less payment on his "beemer" he could afford the taxes.
---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <-
Let's Go Royals
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Miss L Toe
Citizen
Username: Miss_l_toe
Post Number: 28
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 4:37 pm: | |
I know this might sound like a silly question, but as I'm British I'm not quite sure how the taxes are imposed on properties in the States.
In Great Britain, people aged 18 and over living alone in a property get a discount on their housing tax (called "Council Tax")as they only have one income coming in and use less resources. This helps the aged and widowed greatly. The discount on Council Tax is 25%. Furthermore, some categories of households get a 50% discount; this includes properties where every adult is a student - including student nurses, the mentally impaired and religious orders.
Is there such a property tax discount for New Jersey residents? It would seem a fair way of retaining the elderly in their communities rather than being priced out.
Made In England |
Joan
Citizen
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 2587
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 4:41 pm: | |
NRL:
I know its not just the seniors who are being forced out of town for financial reasons but the younger families had the opportunity to look into the full situation before they bought. People like Mediamaven who have been here since the 1940s have witnessed substantial changes to the town's character which they could not possibly have predicted when they moved here.
The bottom line is that we all have to come together and develop a plan to help all of us who want to spend the rest of our days in this town do so without having to choose between food and taxes. |
Sylad
Citizen
Username: Sylad
Post Number: 466
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 4:54 pm: | |
Good luck, I understand your issue with taxes but I bet that the Midtown direct and the character of the town increased the value of your home by huge amounts. I am curious if you made a boat load of cash on the sale of your house?
Taxes are high but from where I sit I see a steady stream of newcomers that are willing to pay over asking on most houses. |
Joan
Citizen
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 2589
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 5:15 pm: | |
Sylad:
Please don't confuse the assessed value of one's home with the amount of equity they may have in it. Just because your home's value grows significantly, it doesn't necessarily mean that your personal wealth has grown.
You also have to factor in the strong emotional attachment that someone can have for a place they have lived for over 60 years.
How long have you been in town, anyway?
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Sylad
Citizen
Username: Sylad
Post Number: 468
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 5:17 pm: | |
I would hope that after 60 years that you would own 100% of the equity.
In my expeience assessed value has little to do with what people will pay for a house. Appraised value, suppy/demand and interest rates drive the market.
Moved here in 98, does that matter? We have an emotional attachment to our house, but when and if we decide to sell it will be a business transaction.
Once the decision is made to sell emotion will play no role in the sale. |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 2418
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 5:17 pm: | |
Lizziecat, you are the most admirable. I wish others looked at things that way. I wish others could afford to look at it that way.
Miss L Toe, we don't have discounts like that. What a good idea!
I wonder if there is an invisible equilibrium that ultimately takes care of this. I'm not saying it's good or bad. But once property taxes reach a certain level, the house prices can't rise any more, because of the combined cost of owning. Of course, that will only happen along with a change in the type of people here, i.e. you'd have much richer people.
And darn, I wish there were a way to cash out on your increased value without moving out. If there were, it wouldn't be so hard to pay the property taxes.
I'm not complaining yet, because I've been here less than a year, and I put the taxes in my budget. If they rise substantially, there's a chance they'll drive me out, too. I can hope my income will rise commensurately, but that is not something I can count on.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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sac
Citizen
Username: Sac
Post Number: 1017
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 5:52 pm: | |
I remember hearing something a few years ago about a little known NJ state tax-relief program for seniors that did not kick in automatically but had to be applied for. I don't know if it still exists or not. Perhaps someone else on this board may know something about it (?) It came up during or just after the reval discussions, I believe.
In Texas, the school portion of property taxes are frozen in some manner at age 65. I'm not sure if it is the tax amount or assessment amount that gets frozen, but something like that. So senior citizens get a break from the increasing school taxes there. This is another interesting idea to consider. Their seniors still support the schools at a base level, which is appropriate, but don't have as great a risk of being taxed out of their homes during retirement. |
Duncan
Citizen
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 1657
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 6:50 pm: | |
quote:Once the decision is made to sell emotion will play no role in the sale.
I will vote the rebulican ticket til I die if you actually say that after living in and raising a family in your home. For your children that house is Bethlehem.
"The truth is always a compound of two half- truths, and you never reach it, because there is always something more to say."-- Tom Stoppard |
Sylad
Citizen
Username: Sylad
Post Number: 470
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 7:45 pm: | |
Duncan....here is the link to the site that has the party declaration form:
http://www.state.nj.us/lps/elections/parties_doe.html
I wish that I knew that this was all I had to say to get you to vote for President Bush.
I said once the decision is made to sell it is a business transaction. Emotion will probably play a big factor in reaching the decision but from there it is all businss. At least for us.
Depending on the age of the kids if might not be a factor. When I was a kid moving was hard because I left my friends, my school and moved to a place where I knew nobody, leaving the house was not hard.
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doublea
Citizen
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 536
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 7:52 pm: | |
I grew up in Western Pennsylvania. In 1990 my mother sold her house and moved to N.J. to be closer. She had lived in that house for 40 years. The day she and I left the house for the final time was one of the most painful days of my life. I can't even begin to imagine what it was like for her. |
Morrisa da Silva
Citizen
Username: Mod
Post Number: 34
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 8:31 pm: | |
I am sure leaving a home and a neighborhood after 40 years is very very difficult and certainly sad for whatever reason one leaves, (i.e financial, health, logistics etc.) but these are the cycles of many towns. This cycle is certainly not new to Maplewood. When we moved to our house here 7 years ago our block and those around us were in flux. Empty nesters were moving out and young families were moving in. Maplewood is not alone in this. The high cost of real estate, taxes and cost of living in general is prohibitive for many Seniors wishing to remain in the North East.
Our community is a bedroom community of New York City and as such those wishing to live here pay a premium both in house prices and taxes. I presume that when my husband and I are ready to retire we will not be able to remain in this locale. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4971
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 5:03 am: | |
Just about every retirement planning article I have read suggests that lowering or eliminating mortgage payments and moving to a low tax area (and I know this is relative) is a good strategy.
Unless you are lucky enough to be retiring with a six figure pension and a seven figure 401k for backup this probably makes sense to avoid eating cat food more than once a day. 
One of the issues here is that it is very tough to stay in Maplewood or SO and reduce your monthly nut to a reasonable level. Even if you move from a $600,000 house with $20k in taxes to a $400,000 house with $8k in taxes you are at risk of a tax readjustment when Mr. Galante and the TC gets around to using the software we bought during the reval and the near certainty of large tax increases annually to fund the rapidly expanding school population, with no corresponding increase in rateables.
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Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 479
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 6:18 am: | |
Tom, can't folks do a reverse mortgage to stay in their home? I know this was anathema to my dad, and I'm not saying it's a good strategy for everyone. Too, some communities give a significant (means based or otherwise) tax discount to seniors. I've also lived places (I think it was Ann Arbor) where if you cost of housing was a disproportionate percentage of your income, you got state tax credit.
Leaving your home is tough. We left our home state of 20+ years to move here and still haven't recovered. And we're not seniors. Should've made my screen name "Ruth amid the alien corn!" |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4974
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 7:56 am: | |
Cynical one - Using capital for living expenses is a cardinal sin.
Seriously, a reverse mortgage may make sense for certain people. However, if the choice is moving to a townhouse in Basking Ridge (or Hilton Head for that matter) or eating up your home equity, most will choose to move.
And remember, everytime an empty nester leaves they are replaced by a young family with multiple rug rats and house apes!! |
Just Me Deb G
Citizen
Username: Deborahg
Post Number: 811
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 8:11 am: | |
Lizziecat, if you have a fan club, I would like to join it.
TomRPP: "And darn, I wish there were a way to cash out on your increased value without moving out. If there were, it wouldn't be so hard to pay the property taxes." FWIW, we are currently in the process of selling a house in the Jefferson district and moving to a less expensive house on the western edge of South Orange. We moved here in 2000, and our current house has appreciated sufficiently to enable us to put down a much larger downpayment on the new house, take advantage of the current(lower) mortgage rates, and reduce our monthly nut by a significant amount. BobK, while our taxes are also lower at the new house (as per your model), we know they may rise. It is the lump sum we're now able to put down that will reduce our cost of living enough to make it possible for us to stay here and live on one income if necessary.
So, to revise your model slightly: Let's say you moved to Maplewood, bought a house for $400K with a 10% downpayment (thus carrying a $360K mortgage), sold it several years later for $600K (all numbers for example only), and bought another house, in another part of town, for $400K. Then you put that $200K into the mortgage for the new house, which also had lower taxes and a better interest rate. You see where I am going with this.
I certainly don't recommend this course of action for anyone who doesn't have to take it. But we love this town, we didn't want to subject our kids to more upheaval than necessary (leaving friends, schools etc.), and we've managed to turn the move into a positive experience rather than a depressing one. It also took us more than six months to find the new house, so you need to be prepared to do a lot of legwork if you want to take this route.
At any rate, TomR, I do think there are options besides moving out. |
debby
Citizen
Username: Debby
Post Number: 121
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 8:25 am: | |
We had considered a move like Deb G's several times before moving away and couldn't quite make it work. Maybe it's that our taxes were "only" $11k.
It was what we desperately wanted to do, but when we did the math it seemed we'd have to move to something less than $325 to make it worthwhile, and we were afraid that major repairs would be needed and then we'd be back in the same boat.
Also, we were afraid that even if we found something with more manageable taxes - say, 8k, they'd be up to 11 within a few years anyway.
Deb G good for you for making it work.
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bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4977
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 8:32 am: | |
Deborah, there are two issues. First in your circumstances you are probably going to see your income increase over the next few years. For retired people this often isn't the case, at least not substantially.
Second, South Orange is due, some might say overdue for a revaluation. What effect will this have on your taxes (and budget)? The same is true here in MW if the tax software we bought from CVI is ever used. The work Lary Seltzer did with the sales information last summer is very enlightening.
Taxes are going to go up everywhere, but most feel that because of the rapid growth in school population and no discernable growth in rateables things will be worse here than elsewhere. |
Just Me Deb G
Citizen
Username: Deborahg
Post Number: 812
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 8:39 am: | |
Bobk,
Your points are well taken. As you said, we do hope that our income will increase. The only counterbalance I would offer is that, as a family with three school-age kids, we are not able to downsize in terms of space the way an empty nester would.
Re: rateables, and this is a separate issue, what effect will the new development at the quarry have (if any) on SO? |
Just Me Deb G
Citizen
Username: Deborahg
Post Number: 813
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 8:43 am: | |
PS Thanks, Debby! Check with me in a year or so to see if we it's working...  |
ashear
Citizen
Username: Ashear
Post Number: 1047
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 9:29 am: | |
Info on NJ property tax relief programs can be found here: http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/index.html
I think budget cuts have limited some of these programs. |
CageyD
Citizen
Username: Cageyd
Post Number: 90
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 10:01 am: | |
We too are frightened of the tax situtation and often think of maybe moving. However, one must consider all taxes - not just property taxes. My family is from CT and often teases me about our high property taxes (2x at least theirs). However, in CT they pay property taxes on cars, boats and motorhomes, they also pay I think 8% sales tax and they are much farther away from NYC. I don't think there are many (any) places so close to NYC with a much different tax situation - unless of course you are in the Millburn/SUmmit/Short Hills income bracket. |
court07040
Citizen
Username: Court07040
Post Number: 61
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 11:50 am: | |
My parents are planning to leave Basking Ridge for the same reasons as presented by MediaMaven. BR's taxes as a percentage of assessed value are quite a bit lower than Maplewood, however, $1,000/mo. is a lot for retired folks on a fixed income to deal with. The truth of the fact is that Maplewood is not unique with its property tax situation. Sure, our taxes are high, but show me any town within commuting distance to NYC that has "low" taxes. The tri-state is a great area to live, raise a family, and earn an income. It isn't a good place to retire. I am sympathetic to those who must move from the area when they retire, but this isn't a new phenomenon. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4982
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 12:38 pm: | |
Court, everything is relative in its own way as the old song said. We have had people look at us like we had two heads and just arrived on the last shuttle from Mars when we said Millburn taxes look "reasonable".
Deborah, there are around 70 units at the quarry. Assuming the Village Board doesn't end up piloting them, at an average tax bill of $25,000 each they will bring in around $1,750,000, most of which will go to the schools and the county. |
Wendyn
Citizen
Username: Wendyn
Post Number: 161
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 1:03 pm: | |
My MIL constantly complains about her taxes in Bergan County. SHE doesn't have kids in the school system so why should SHE pay $10k for nothing???
Ummm, because you had 4 kids in the school system for a total of about 25 years. Suck it up or move to Florida. Your grandkids will love you for it. |
Earlster
Citizen
Username: Earlster
Post Number: 144
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 1:57 pm: | |
I have been offered a new job in Stamford, CT. So last weekend we went on the road and looked at neighborhoods in Westchester and CT. Whatever you save in property taxes is more then compensated with the higher mortgage payments that we will have. We might as a matter of fact have to take a hit in our quality of living.
Taxes here are high, but the house prices (as of now) make it worth while. Of course if your house is payed of, then thats a different story. |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 483
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 7:51 pm: | |
But isn't it considered wiser to invest in property than in taxes? That's what I always hear, anyway, in terms of which way to make the trade-off... |
Habanero2
Citizen
Username: Habanero2
Post Number: 45
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 7:58 pm: | |
Earlster,
At least with higher house/tax payments you get to keep some of it. With taxes, Newark keeps it. Stamford schools are similar to ours (I used to live there) so that is probably a wash.
A quick question. Does anyone else but me think the schools here aren't that great? We pay a crap load and the scores stink, especially in high-school. I look at other townships and their schools test well. I know tests aren't everything but I think they are the best measure of the student body. I am sure that some kids will excel no matter where they go to school but I believe in the bell curve and a higher median helps.
"You kids today have it easy. When I was a kid everything was HUGE. My dad was nearly four times bigger than me. You couldn't even see the tops of counters.... Then gradually everything became smaller until it was the manageable size it is today." |
CageyD
Citizen
Username: Cageyd
Post Number: 91
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 10:19 pm: | |
It seems as though certain kids in the schools test really well and others don't i.e. the achievement gap. |
steel
Citizen
Username: Steel
Post Number: 426
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 10:27 am: | |
Our housing market competition is also, (gratefully for our escalating prices), New York itself. I read in a recent "New York" Magazine article that the "sizzling market" for a one bedroom in the $750K range;
Quote, (from a NY realtor):
"You cannot believe the number of people looking to buy. I'm hearing stories of 30,40,50, and even 70 people coming through an open house in a two-hour peroid. It's a zoo, a feeding frenzy".
-No wonder I see so many New York plates around here on the weekends. |
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