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mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 103
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 9:48 am: | 
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Up to this point I have not been told how the county will make up any deficits if the arena loses money or if there are actually profits (I know, a silly thought), will they be used towards the county budget. I did request information from the county. My guess is they will magically appear sometime after Nov. 5th (election day).
I know I have some concern about the viability of the theater. I know that almost every theater in the country loses some money. The question is does it bring people to the town who will eat at the restaurants, shop at the stores, etc. NJPAC and The Papermill certainly rely heavily on donations, endowments, etc. and they seem to bring a lot of people (and cars) to their areas. I know it is very hard to get into a restaurant for pre-theater in Millburn. I do think there are a lot of positives with this kind of project but we do have to make sure that they outweigh whatever costs there might be associated with it.
I do not have the final financing figures with the exact breakdown. When I do, I will either post the details or email anyone who wants to see them. I have seen the preliminary breakdown, but would prefer to have a final version that has been approved by the Arts board.
The taxpayers will be liable for the deficits incurred by SOPAC. |
mayhewdrive
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 100
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 10:08 am: |
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Mr. Rosner,
One thing I have wondered is what exactly the Arts Center is supposed to be? (i.e. is it conceptually modelled after the Paper Mill Playhouse, the NJPAC, the Harms Center in Englewood etc) Of course, I'm not referring to the physical structure, but rather the core market it is designed to attract.
I've gotten the sense it is trying to be "everything"- arts center (i.e. Papermill, NJPAC), movie theater (i.e. like the one in Montclair) and catering facility (although quite small), that it won't be able to excel with any one specific thing.
Do you have a better sense of what existing facility(ies) it could be best compared to? |
scollins
Citizen
Username: Scollins
Post Number: 18
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 11:25 am: |
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Who will decide on the economic feasability of art center projects? What will the operating budget be? Who will run the center? Is the amount of taxpayer liability resulting for operating loses limitless?
Also, the current location for the SOPAC makes it invisible to the traffic on South Orange Avenue. Traffic that has been slowed to make S.O. more of a destination and less of a throughofare. I think that more people will come to the SOPAC if they know it is there and more people will know it is there if they can at least see it. How can we increase the visibility of the SOPAC?
Could the location be moved or the buildings between it and the Avenue be condemned and demolished?
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mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 104
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 11:47 am: |
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I will try and answer these questions for the arts center, but there are still a lot of unanswered questions and there are definitely others who know significantly more about SOPAC. Although I am on the arts board, I have been much more involved with the financial and legal aspects than with the operations and the expected programming.
It is definitely not going to be like the papermill. It is much more like a very small scale mini-NJPAC with movie theaters attached to it ( I am sure someone can come up with a better comparison).
The theater portion will hopefully attract plays, string quartets, lecturers, rock bands (obvioulsy it will not be Springsteen), jazz performances, etc. These things tend to grow into something over a period of years where the theater will develop an identity.
The movie theater will give people in the area a really nice place to go see movies in a brand new theater (vs. some of the older ones that a lot us hate going to now). The village will probably rent out the movie theater to an independent operator.
The catering hall (probably considered medium sized) which will hold around 140 -150 people.
The reason to do "everything" in one building is money. The catering and the movie theater should be profitable and hopefully enough so to offset the losses from the theater. The reason I said this was a mini-NJPAC was because they do catering there because of the potential profits that can be made in that area.
Of course there is the intangibles of what an operation can do if successful for the village. |
dgm
Citizen
Username: Dgm
Post Number: 61
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 3:26 pm: |
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My question is rhetorical. Although there are other Trustees, why is Mr. Rosner required to be the expert on everything. It is an impossible job. Where the hell are Calabrese, Theroux, Stieglitz, Taylor, and Rosen, and even Hartwyk (he's a Village official right?). I guess they aren't willing to volunteer anything they know. |
Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 3830
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 11:15 pm: |
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How much does it cost SO taxpayers to leave baseball field lights on all night? It's happening again tonight. Great for safety but it's a waste of money. |
doublea
Citizen
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 15
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 9:28 am: |
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Woodstock: I've been meaning to respond on this subject for some time now. I totally agree with you on the need for a revaluation to remedy the disparity of different assessments for similar houses. I know that you understand how this can happen, I understand how this can happen, but it is difficult for someone who is not in our to position to understand this. The constant refrain is "appeal your assessment". To try to explain it simply, take the following case: in the last revaluation done in 1991, all the houses in an neighborhood, comparable in most respects, were all assessesd at $450,000. In the early 90's, when property prices dropped like a rock, most of these houses appealed their assessments, based on then market values, and their assessments were reduced to $330,000-350,000. One house did not have its assessment appealed until 1997. By this time property values had begun to increase, so that comparable values of close to #400,000 had to be used. Even though the assessment on this house was reduced to $400,000, because of the very high tax rate in South Orange($5per $100), this house is still paying approximatey $3000 per year more than comparable houses. I would like to get together with you at some point to discuss what we and others in our situation can do. I went to a South Orange Trusttes meeting last year to request a revaluation, but as expected, the politicians are afraid to mention it. |
doublea
Citizen
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 16
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 10:03 am: |
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To respond to those who would say isn't your house worth more than $400,000 now, of course it is - but those houses assessed $50,000 - 70,000 less are worth just as much. All I'm asking for is to be assessed at the same value as similar houses, which is the purpose of a revaluation. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 225
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 10:08 am: |
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Doublea: I don't think being afraid is the issue. The problem with a revaluation is that while it solves one person's problem, it creates a whole new set of problems. There are many reasons not to do a revaluation and it certainly makes no sense to do it when the market is at what most people consider a peak.
What we should be doing is pushing the state for real property tax reform and laying out the options on the table. We know that municipalities with more commercial ratables (like Roseland, Cherry hill) would be completely against a change in the system no matter how unfair the current system is.
Woodstock's situation has more to do with that he lives in new construction ( at least I think I know who he is) and his problem might not be changed with a revaluation.
By the way, a revaluation has been discussed at least once each year at either a planning and zoning meeting or a trustees meeting and we are not currently considering one for a variety of reasons.
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doublea
Citizen
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 17
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 10:36 am: |
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M .Rosner: I think I also know where Woodstock lives. I have talked to the Tax Assessor about this problem and she understands that although Woodstock probably lives in a newer house and I live in an older house, we have the same problem. I am disappointed by your response that tax reform is the the answer to the disparity in assessed values - this is not the answer and I am su re that Woodstock understands this. I would be glad to sit down with you to explain how this works. |
doublea
Citizen
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 18
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 10:38 am: |
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M .Rosner: I think I also know where Woodstock lives. I have talked to the Tax Assessor about this problem and she understands that although Woodstock probably lives in a newer house and I live in an older house, we have the same problem. I am disappointed by your response that tax reform is the the answer to the disparity in assessed values - this is not the answer and I am su re that Woodstock understands this. I would be glad to sit down with you to explain how this works. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 227
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 12:38 pm: |
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doublea: Ok, I will be willing to sit down and discuss the issue. I will say that this is clearly an issue that has become about because we rely on a property tax vs. income and sales taxes to fund the schools which is what you find in many other states.
While tax reform would not be the answer to tax disparities, it is clearly the way to lessen the impact of "unfair assesments". I think we all want a system that is fair today and one that will be fair tomorrow. If we had a revaluation today, there would be many people who would say the new assesments are unfair (see Maplewood) and you would find that in five years there would be a whole new set of homes with "unfair assesments". |
doublea
Citizen
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 19
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 1:09 pm: |
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M.Rosner: I can't find the thread, but after all the fuss, people on MOL agree that their home prices have gone up more than $100,000 since the revaluation. A lot of the problem in Maplewood had to do with the manner in which the revaluation was handled. The problem was compounded by the fact that a revaluation hadn't taken place in more than 20 years. This seems to be a problem most acutely seen in Essex County, due in large part to the fact that Newark hadn't revalued in 40 years. As you no doubt know, Caldwell is challenging a revaluation and cites South Orange as a municipality which is at least if not more out of line than Caldwell is. |
davec
Citizen
Username: Davec
Post Number: 81
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 1:20 pm: |
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I was wondering if someone more knowledgeable about this stuff than I could clarify something for me. If a revaluation is done now, wouldn't we ALL just end up paying more in taxes since the market value has been going up? |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 230
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 1:28 pm: |
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Really, Caldwell is looking at S. Orange as being out of line? I know there are many towns in NJ including the southern part of the state that do not done a revaluation in many years.
Another state mandated item yet they provide no funding. There also seems to be very few qualified firms and I would guess that there will always be complaints no matter how well it was handled.
One day, the village will have to do another revaluation even if nobody wants it (politicians or residents). |
doublea
Citizen
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 20
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 1:41 pm: |
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davec: The short answer to your question is no. The total amount of taxes doesn't go up just because of a revaluation (except for the one time cost directly related to the revaluation itself, such as the cost of the appraisal company).What the revaluation does is increase the total value of all properties in town. Then, with this new toal value, the tax rate, which for example is now $5 per 100 of assessed valuation, is adjusted to say $2.50 per $100 , if for instance the new assessed values for the town are twice the old assessed values.Whether or not your individual taxes go up or down depends on how your old and new assessments compare to the old and new assessments of other properties in the Village. |
doublea
Citizen
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 21
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 1:51 pm: |
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Woodstock: We have a problem here. Does your wife still have her store? Please let me know and I'll stop in and introduce myself. |
doublea
Citizen
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 22
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 2:11 pm: |
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M.Rosner: I have a house in Monmouth County which has been revalued 4 times since 1987. Some of the revaluations were initiated by the municipality, some by the County Board of Taxation. Other municipalities in Momouth County likewise. Never the hysteria that takes place in Essex County. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 231
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 3:07 pm: |
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davec: doublea's explanation about the revaluation and how it works is on target.
doublea: There is certainly an advantage to doing away with the hysteria and the enormous potential changes in property taxes by doing a revaluation more often. On some level, it would make sense to do one every two or three years. I would guess that in the long run it could prove to be eaiser for the revaluation company and the cost of doing the revals might be justified in having fairer assesments. It would be a lot less expensive for the reval company if we did it that way since they would not have to start from scratch every time.
I guess that is such an emotional and trying experience that when we do it every 20 years, nobody wants to do it again for a long time, but it might be best if we just did it again a couple of years later.
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doublea
Citizen
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 23
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 3:27 pm: |
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I absolutely agree. Davec: If you still have questions, please ask. It can be a very difficult thing to understand. Even some residents in Maplewood suggested the revaluation was just another way to raise taxes. |
doublea
Citizen
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 24
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 4:03 pm: |
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M.Rosner: I thought I was through with this subject for today, but let me suggest what I think would be very constructive.I realize that a reavaluation is not imminent, but nevertheless schedule one or two sessions at Town Hall or another forum to have Village officials explain exactly how a revaluation works and then answer questions from the public. We have extremely well -informed residents in the Village and I think that such an information session would go a long way towards reducing the heightend emotions that result from the prospect of a revaluation. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 232
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 4:14 pm: |
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Ok, I have found that these kind of dicussions have worked best at committee meetings. I will put it on the agenda for the May planning and zoning meeting (assuming I am re-elected and assuming I will still be chairing the planning and zoning committee).
We will be meeting on May 28th at 6:45 P.M. |
woodstock
Citizen
Username: Woodstock
Post Number: 71
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 10:09 pm: |
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Wow, there's been quite a bit of activity here recently. First, nice talking to you tonight, Doublea, though I'm sorry about the circumstances.
Mr. Rosner, I don't think (and I haven't read back, so I may be remembering incorrectly) that my contention was that a reval would lower my taxes, though I do believe it would. What I have been upset about is the inequity in the current tax scheme. Why are my taxes higher than a house that sold the same week as mine, for almost twice as much as mine? I know the answer, but that doesn't make it fair. I do feel, however, that the town doesn't really care. I feel that way because if I need to sell my house because of the inequitable taxes, the next person to come in will just pay whatever I was paying (or more). And the only not that the town wil make is that there is another new taxpayer on the rolls. One more person to take up the slack from artificially low taxes on older houses.
I don't believe anyone who tells me taxes my will ever go down. In fact, I'd vote against anyone who says they will absolutely lower my taxes unless they explained in detail (excruciating detail) how they plan to do so, because I'd feel they were lying to me to get my vote. As much as I'd like to lower my taxes, I just want equity with other, similarly valued houses.
Thre is no acceptable explanation as to why my taxes, on a house that will sell for exactly the same as another house on my block, are signficantly higher than my neighbor's. But I would be more than willing to listen and have someone explain to me why things should be the way they are.
Mark Weinstock |
woodstock
Citizen
Username: Woodstock
Post Number: 72
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 10:15 pm: |
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Mr. Rosner, I'd like to thank you for attempting to get this discussion on the agenda. I will do my best to attend the May 28th meeting. And in case you don't hear it enough, I do appreciate your taking the time to talk with your consituents in these forums.
I recently received a solicitation from your campaign. If I could contribute to yor campaign without contributing to your co-ticket holders (or whatever it is called), I'd be happy to. I feel that I've gotten to know a bit about you in reading your posts. I wish I could say the same for any other politician in town.
I realize this is drifting way off topic, but short of attending town meetings, is there any mechanism for getting to know the candidates and their positions on things? I hate relying on campaign material or lawn signs to know who's running for what. |
woodstock
Citizen
Username: Woodstock
Post Number: 73
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 10:22 pm: |
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Finally, doublea, yes my wife does still have the store in West Orange. I'm sure she'd love it if you stopped by. In fact, when you know the number, maybe you could pick up the check from her  . I am glad that someone more eloquent than myself has come forward to help champion this issue. |
doublea
Citizen
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 29
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 10:44 pm: |
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Woodstock: I know that my wife would love to visit you wife's store. We have a new grandson and I'm sure that check could be spent pretty fast - and we would love doing it. |
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