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Jerry Ryan
Citizen
Username: Gerardryan
Post Number: 1022
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 5:56 pm: | 
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Yes I think so. Of course, the number is spread across the entire community, so on an individual basis the net effect is probably pretty small, and one would, I think, argue that it is worth it to attract the new ratable for the long term. Also if the property makes some payment in lieu of taxes, those dollars count as revenue, and the amount to be raised by taxes is reduced by that payment. If the in-lieu payment is not equal to the tax due, then I think the difference is spread out among the property owners according to their own assessed valuation. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 2327
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 6:04 pm: |
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Yes, but the Town gets to keep all of the Pilot funds, in the case of Gaslight Commons the amount is $500,000 in lieu of around 20% of maybe $1,000,000 (which is a WAG)if the property was taxed. Overall, especially with MW paying 60% or so of any additional school costs, the taxpayers of SO come out way ahead, even with the higher school taxes. Or am I missing something. It has been a long day. |
Jerry Ryan
Citizen
Username: Gerardryan
Post Number: 1023
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 10:33 pm: |
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I do not know any of the actual numbers on the property, or what the SO rate is, so I will not guess, and cannot assume that "the taxpayers of SO come out way ahead". Maybe they do, maybe they don't, maybe it's a wash.
That's probably the case for any such project. You'd have to look at the specific terms of a particular deal to judge its worth. |
scollins
Citizen
Username: Scollins
Post Number: 25
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 11:36 pm: |
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The Gaslight has 200 units and is making a PILOT of $500,000. Simple math tells me that they are paying $2,500 per unit.
The average house in South Orange is assessed at just over $200,000 and pays over $10,000 in property taxes per year or more than four times what a Gaslight unit pays.
People think that more ratebles will help the tax situation. Profitable ratebles, meaning those that pay more in tax then they use up in services, will help. In the past twenty years we have seen the Mews, Village Green, 321 Wyoming and the Newstead. Have taxes stabilized?
Sure the PILOT all goes to S.O. but it costs $10,000 per student in the SOMA district. If the Gaslight generates 50 students that means $500,000 in BOE costs without even adding in other services. Using my simple math, projects like the Gaslight Commons with the their high density and low taxes will never become profitable ratables.
Mark Rosner has said that in hindsight the Gaslight is too big. The Atlantic Groups report, paid for by S.O. and published in 1994 agreed. The Atlantic groups report recommend 220 residential housing units downtown. There are plans on the table and proposals for many more. Will we all decide that these were too big after they get built as well?
It seems that is has become more economically desirable (from a tax perspective) to be a renter in town rather than a homeowner. We also have a quality school district that draws renters from lesser districts. When these factors are presents you often see the spiraling economic downturns experienced by other rental heavy towns like East Orange and Irvington.
It seems to me that some PILOTS, like the Gaslight, serve to insure and increase the profit of the developers at the expense of the taxpayers.
At what step in the development process is the Piloting discussed? Where and when is the financial analysis done by the town to ensure that these developments are good for the Village? Is it done at all? Do the Trustees see the numbers?
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dgm
Citizen
Username: Dgm
Post Number: 70
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 26, 2002 - 10:20 am: |
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What (I think) Jerry Ryan is saying is that the Gaslight Commons increases the size of the South Orange piece of the SOM school tax base since the Gaslight Commons is included in the calculation of the total values in the district. Therefore, Maplewood could have a relatively smaller piece to fund (they had a recent reval, who knows?), and South Orange could have a relatively larger portion, but would have the Gaslight Commons exempted from paying school tax. Is this true Jerry?
I wonder if the hotel will be abated and PILOTed too? |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 125
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 26, 2002 - 10:58 am: |
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Scollins: The average house in S. Orange pays closer to $9,000 in taxes, but surely you would agree that someone who owns a house should pay more than someone who rents an apartment (assuming that we are stuck with the current property tax system).
I did say that in hindsight, the Gaslight building might be too large, but I never said what would be the correct number of apartments in the village should be.
The Atlantic report was done in 1993-94, well before the Midtown Direct. They made assumptions based on information from NJ Transits projections. As we all know, those projections were way off. In fact, they could have doubled the number of new riders and they still would have been wrong. The number of commuters in S. Orange alone has tripled according to NJ Transit since midtown direct. All that means is that we need to use the study as a guide, not a bible.
As I said in an earlier post, I will give full information on the PILOT in a seperate thread. Piloting usually comes up after the developer finds out what the taxes would be for their project.
It seems the real complaint is a property tax system that puts too much of a burden on the homeowners in towns that do not have large ratables. It is time for the state to change the system. They know what needs to be done, they just need the political guts (and I know, Florio tried, but that got him booted).
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mayhewdrive
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 113
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 26, 2002 - 12:42 pm: |
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Mark,
As someone who has a house that is close to the average assessed value of around $220,000, I can assure you that my taxes are much closer to $12,000 than to $9,000.
Ironically, when I moved here 4 years ago, my taxes were under $9,000. They are now over $12,000.
What is the secret that other states have? I have a friend in Florida who pays about $1,000 per year for property taxes. It's remarkable that I pay more than that per MONTH. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 126
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 26, 2002 - 2:00 pm: |
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It was not me that said the average assesment is $200,000. I think it is actually closer to $175,000. The average taxes are around $9,000.00.
There are lots of reasons including the following:
we use a property tax to fund our schools. NJ gets virtually no money from the Federal Government (especially compared to Florida). We have too many municipalities and school districts.
We pay higher wages (too offset the higher expenses). A very large percentage of people who live in Florida do not have children and only stay there in the winter. Tourism (Disneyworld brings in millions of dollars). They get more bang for the dollar from the federal government. I am sure there are other reasons, but these are certainly some of them.
I have said it over and over again. The property tax system is not only the worst method to use, it is the least equitable. Unfortunately, there are many towns in NJ that are happy with it because they have a lot more land with a lot more commercial ratables. Small towns such as S. Orange (Maplewood, Glen Ridge and others ) do not have enough votes to force a change.
I am open to any ideas on how to try and force our state legislators and Governor to deal with this problem. They all know and understand the problem, but getting them to deal with it is another story.
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notehead
Citizen
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 391
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2002 - 5:15 pm: |
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I'm up for a giant sit-in down in Trenton if anyone thinks it will help. I'll even bring popcorn, but it can't be the premium stuff -- I can't afford it with my taxes. 
By the way, many thanks to Mr. Rosner for taking the time (not to mention the ever-reasonable tone) on MOL. |
bets
Citizen
Username: Bets
Post Number: 228
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 4, 2002 - 10:29 pm: |
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Though I appreciate that Mr. Rosner takes the time, and the ever-reasonable tone, I wish for more content and information. If I could keep my eyes open long enough to search some threads here in SOS, I'd count how many times he's promised to obtain information and post it. I bet I'd count the same number of times he didn't follow through.
I understand that he may well be hobbled by the ever-present "sensitivity" of some materials, but budget, downtown redevelopment, and township personnel accountability is public information and should be presented as such. I believe even the Church Street Commons (both sides) are PILOTed, yet it's made to seem as if only Gaslight Commons "won" that benefit.
That said, I do not envy Mark his position. I wouldn't do it. It's extremely laudable that he answers to the citizens (and non-) here, though I think follow-through is important. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 128
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, December 5, 2002 - 9:52 am: |
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Bets: I think there is only one thing I have not followed through with on here (and I did give the info to the person who requested it), but if I missed something, then please remind me.
As for the PILOT, I will post more on it next week, but I am still waiting for confimation on some of the information.
The next round of budget meetings will be starting soon and almost all of the meetings will be in open session again (one person showed up last year) with the exception of the session dedicated to township personnel which we are required to do in closed session.
I still maintain that the PILOT agreement with the Gaslight Commons was the right decision for S. Orange. There is no PILOT agreement for church street. |
mayhewdrive
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 115
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 5, 2002 - 10:38 am: |
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As for follow-ups, any update on when we can see agendas for public meetings posted here on this public forum in advance of the meetings? |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 129
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, December 5, 2002 - 10:51 am: |
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Mayhewdrive: I will remind the village administrator that we had a goal of January 1st to get the agendas on-line. |
scollins
Citizen
Username: Scollins
Post Number: 27
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 6:51 pm: |
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Mark,
The Star-Ledger today on page 22 in the article titled "Tax Trauma" has a table that shows the average tax in S.O. to be over $10,000 which would put the assessment at over $200,000.
The S.O. Tax Trauma index is one of the worst earning a rating of "Totally traumatized".
Is the SL wrong? |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 134
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 10:44 pm: |
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Property taxes are too high. I think the point of the article is that the property tax system is unfair and some towns have a very unfair burden. So, yes, the SL is correct that property taxes in a lot of towns are too high including S. Orange. With somewhere between 55 and 60% of our tax bill going to the school system under the current system, it is obvious to everyone that this system does not work.
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bets
Citizen
Username: Bets
Post Number: 241
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 11:10 am: |
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Nov. 25:
I will give a complete explanation of the PILOT in question in the next week or so. I want to make sure I have the complete information, but clearly, there is some misunderstanding on how a PILOT works the reasons they are done. I will do it in a seperate thread.
Nov. 26:
As I said in an earlier post, I will give full information on the PILOT in a seperate thread. Piloting usually comes up after the developer finds out what the taxes would be for their project. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 135
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 12:09 pm: |
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Bets: I am still waiting for clarification on two key points. I have not forgotten. Since there has been conflicting information put on here by many posters I want to make sure that whatever I post on here is correct.
I will add that earlier you stated that the development on Church Street was given a PILOT agreement and they do not have one.
This is a very hectic time at my office so I ask you to please be understanding of the delay. |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 137
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 2:09 pm: |
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As promised, I am going to try to clarify how the Payment in Lieu of Taxes (PILOT) was done with the Gaslight Commons (on Third Street). By the way, there is no other PILOT agreement with any other developer including the two new buildings on Church Street.
The agreement calls for the developer to pay a sum to the village for 30 years with annual increases. The increases are the same as any taxpayer gets (municipal portion only). The village receives the whole sum that is agreed to. The assessed value does NOT count for the calculation of county or the school taxes.
However, with this developer we made the payment high enough so that there would not be any additionaly burden to residents of S. Orange. Using hypothetical numbers, if the developer was going to have a total tax bill of $1,000,000, of which S. Orange would have received around $250,000. With the PILOT, they pay $500,000 to S. Orange. That means there is an extra $250,000 which should be enough to cover any additional tax buden that might be incurred including school costs.
I hope this answers most of the questions, but feel free to ask any if I was not clear about something.
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doublea
Citizen
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 27
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 1:34 pm: |
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Going back and looking at previous posts, there was considerable discussion about the tax implications of a PILOT in the "Motel 6 or Plaza Hotel" thread. It was there stated by M.Rosner that assessed value of Gaslight Commons does not go into the calculation of county or school taxes. Gerry Ryan of Maplewood said it is included. Where do we stand on this issue? Did South Orange receive a legal opinion before the transaction? |
doublea
Citizen
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 28
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 1:39 pm: |
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The prior post should have been in the "South Orange taxes - something has to give" thread. |
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