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South Orange Performing Arts Centernwyavemrosner3-21-03  12:52 pm
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MARTINA
Citizen
Username: Martina

Post Number: 1
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, February 7, 2003 - 11:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

STAND FOR PEACE THIS SATURDAY - 02-08-03!

Please join neighbors and friends in expressing your opposition to the administration's planned war against Iraq. Concerned South Orange and Maplewood residents will gather in downtown South Orange on the corner of South Orange Avenue and Sloan Street along the side of Dunkin' Donuts from 11am-12:30 pm on Saturday, February 8. We will distribute fact sheets on Iraq and flyers on the New York City rally planned for February 15.
For more information please contact Eve Peterson (973-761-7279, ehpeterson@aol.com) or Martina Roth (973-762-2975, martroth@gmx.net).

PLEASE HELP SPREAD THE WORD BY CALLING AND/OR FORWARDING THIS E-MAIL TO AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE! Thank you.

Martina Roth & Eve Peterson
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jrf
Citizen
Username: Jrf

Post Number: 288
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Friday, February 7, 2003 - 12:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

While you're at it, why not bash Israel too?

Make it a support the troops rally.

You are Anti-American.
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Ed May
Citizen
Username: Edmay

Post Number: 1128
Registered: 9-2001
Posted on Friday, February 7, 2003 - 12:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Martina

Welcome to Maplewood Online.
For the record I do NOT support your "STAND" and will NOT be joining your protest.
Nonetheless it is great to live in a country where free expression is possible.
Hopefully the citizens of Iraq will soon enjoy that freedom also.
Ed May
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pizzaz
Citizen
Username: Pizzaz

Post Number: 8
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Friday, February 7, 2003 - 1:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

God Bless America, and the individuals who hold the views as Ed May.
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mayhewdrive
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive

Post Number: 145
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Friday, February 7, 2003 - 1:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Martina,

Bravo for you. It is frightening how many people are blindly supporting a war for the sole purpose of settling a score for Daddy.
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jrf
Citizen
Username: Jrf

Post Number: 290
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Friday, February 7, 2003 - 1:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mayhew - what proof do you have of this other than your own personal dislike of GWB?

I am now changing my stance. I hope they develop the entire damn quarry with 2000 rentals with water flowing down the hill into your backyard. Perhaps you can find a plumber to clear your basement at the "peace rally".
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mwsilva
Citizen
Username: Mwsilva

Post Number: 251
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Friday, February 7, 2003 - 2:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Would you not be more effective if you and your followers drove to Washington, D.C. and made your statement?

I doubt if GWB or his staff will be tuned into Ch. 19 to catch your act.
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mck
Citizen
Username: Mck

Post Number: 399
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Friday, February 7, 2003 - 2:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe Mr. Mayhew Drive just made my point about the frivolity of the "anti-war" people. Much easier to accuse this president of treason (tho the former president, a Democrat, called for regime change also) than make a serious argument about how to handle Saddam.
Mr. Mayhew just went down a notch in my estimation, also.
Rally away, tho, Martina.
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Ed May
Citizen
Username: Edmay

Post Number: 1133
Registered: 9-2001
Posted on Friday, February 7, 2003 - 2:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

God forbid that everyone think like me or have my exact views! How much better if we all form our own educated fact based opinions.

In my opinion, the situation in Iraq is very simple. The Iraqi government has murdered thousands of its own citizens, admitted having vast quantities of poison gas and other "Weapons of mass destruction", defied numerous United Nations resolutions, not accounted for the very WOMD it reported owning, and threatened to use same. The US and its allies are obligated to prevent this rogue state from threatening world stability, and make the world safe for democracy. "Mr. Hussein - tear down those WOMD's". And Happy Birthday Ronald Reagan.

As to the quarry and dams and water flowing and plumbers, I leave that discussion to another place and time, lest I be "quarrylous".

Ed May
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mayhewdrive
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive

Post Number: 146
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Friday, February 7, 2003 - 3:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ed May - Interesting how your description of the situtation in Iraq sounds virtually IDENTICAL to the situtation in North Korea. Does that mean we will overthrow that government next? If not, why not?
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jrf
Citizen
Username: Jrf

Post Number: 293
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Friday, February 7, 2003 - 3:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

>>Does that mean we will overthrow that government next? If not, why not?<<

No - the Federal Government will be busy sending the Army Corp of Engineers into the old Quarry to figure out how to stop the water from draining into the homes on Mayhewdrive. Once they solve that problem, perhaps we can overthrow North Korea.
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mayhewdrive
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive

Post Number: 149
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Friday, February 7, 2003 - 3:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jrf,

Glad to have such a compassionate & caring neighbor.
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Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave

Post Number: 4121
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Friday, February 7, 2003 - 3:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

(North Korea is a different animal -- one that needs to be tamed by China.)

I think the desire for peace is admirable. I also think at times war is unavoidable. If the words of the United Nations are not backed up by action then there's no point in diplomacy, debate or democracy.
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lamppost
Citizen
Username: Lamppost

Post Number: 15
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Friday, February 7, 2003 - 9:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks to the strong, decent role model that we have in President George W. Bush, the nation has united and found its courage. Thanks to the weak, dysfunctional administration of the first homeless president who preceeded him, the information agencies were not given sufficient financial support, and we were then rewarded with the devastation of 9-11. We are not going to be sitting ducks any longer, and we don't care about what the Europeans (who never liked us anyway, in good times or bad) think about us. Nobody wants war, but we are going to blot out our enemies before they blot us, and I support this 100%. Do the protestors have a message for the children who were tortured in front of their parents to force confessions from the parents?
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greeneyes
Citizen
Username: Greeneyes

Post Number: 328
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Friday, February 7, 2003 - 11:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Huh?
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Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave

Post Number: 4124
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Saturday, February 8, 2003 - 1:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lampost,
What about the 12 European nations who signed a letter of support for us? Do you want to discount a continent? Do you realize our number one ally, England, is a Eurpoean nation? You should become more informed before posting.
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pan
Citizen
Username: Pan

Post Number: 48
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Saturday, February 8, 2003 - 8:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In 1939 there was no United Nations, there was the League of Nations. They too saw the dangerous rise of Adolf Hitler, they too saw his war preparations, they too didn't act for the sake of "peace", trying to find a peaceful, diplomatic solution. The result of their inaction was the World War II turmoil and the loss of millions of lives. History has a lot of lessons to teach us. Let's open our eyes and learn.
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Ed May
Citizen
Username: Edmay

Post Number: 1135
Registered: 9-2001
Posted on Saturday, February 8, 2003 - 3:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with Dave Ross on Korea.

Ed May
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lamppost
Citizen
Username: Lamppost

Post Number: 16
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Saturday, February 8, 2003 - 8:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To Dave Ross: If, as you say, I should become "more informed" then you should become more literate. Please re-read what I said, namely "We don't care what the Europeans THINK about us." Stated otherwise, European public opinion should not be a factor in our decision making process. And yes, I am aware of England being in Europe. Whether or not they WANT TO BE is another story.
What is the source of your hostility? I'll challenge you to a duel any day.
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Ed May
Citizen
Username: Edmay

Post Number: 1141
Registered: 9-2001
Posted on Saturday, February 8, 2003 - 10:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Martina, you started this thread. Tell us about your event. Was it well attended? Did you sway anyone to your point of view? Did you sign anyone up for February 15th? Or were you guys hannitized by the passersby?
Ed May
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mck
Citizen
Username: Mck

Post Number: 407
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Sunday, February 9, 2003 - 8:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I walked by about 11:30, picked up some donuts, and ascertained there were 8-10 adults out leafletting. I asked if there were any Maplewoodians present and apparently there weren't.
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bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk

Post Number: 2558
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Sunday, February 9, 2003 - 9:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Martina, is the rumor true that six of the anti-war protestors signed up to go to Bagdad as human shields?
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pan
Citizen
Username: Pan

Post Number: 49
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 7:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Martina, I hope that you will not dignify the above sarcastic remarks with an answer; they do not deserve it. Although I am for this war for the reasons listed in my post above, I am, in principle a peace-nik, against war, violence, and the proliferation of weapons, any weapons, but especially those of mass destruction. I actively fight for these causes; in doing so, my co-combatants and I came across wise guys like the ones above whose idea of political discourse is sitting on their big fat arse and spewing out sarcasm and mockery. Your best weapon against them is: ignoring them. I admire your activism, taking your ideas to the streets. South Orange needs more people like you. Keep up the spirit.
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Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave

Post Number: 4147
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 7:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In another thread, Harpo linked to this informative discussion about the Iraq situation.

From that, this in particular stood out for me, which explains pretty clearly why standing down / opting for peace, or whatever you would call it, is a far more dangerous option:


quote:

For the last several months Saddam Hussein and his henchmen have been making an escalating series of threats against the allied forces that are amassing on their borders. They are threatening to send out suicide bombers, they are threatening to kill the invaders in a sea of fire, they are threatening essentially that they will use these weapons of mass destruction, which they claim they don't possess. All these things are now going on. So therefore how would it look if, in the face of this threat, we were to back down now and say, "We're not going to tackle Saddam Hussein, we're going to leave this (Inaudible) dictator in power." It's pretty obvious how it would look. It would look that the West was scared of Saddam Hussein, it would appear that Saddam Hussein had faced down the great powers of the world. He has done this before, he has spun his defeat in 1991 into a great victory. He has a built a mosque called the Mother of All Battles Mosque on the outskirts of Baghdad to celebrate the serious victory over allied coalitions. And if we were to back down now, it would be another joyous victory for Saddam Hussein, or so it would appear. And then only our friends, our allies in the Arab world who have gone and put their necks on the line to help us would be brutally exposed.

Our friends and allies in the Muslim would be brutally exposed for having helped us. Saddam would claim a victory. And what would be the impact of this upon the war on terrorism? It's an interesting question to think about, because if you read the writings of Osama bin Laden in the 1990s, what emboldened al Qaeda to act? Was it American strength? No, it was American weakness. It was the fact that we were chased out of Vietnam, we were chased out of Beirut, we were chased out of Somalia. Read the writings of Osama bin Laden. He said in a 2000 recruitment video for al Qaeda, "We believe that America is much weaker than Russia. And our brothers who fought in Somalia told us they were astonished to observe how weak, impotent and cowardly the American soldier is." This is what drove al Qaeda to attack us, because they felt they could get away with it. And what would be the impact of Saddam Hussein ... the ally, at least for the time, being of al Qaeda ... were to face down the United States and our allies in the Middle East? I suggest that it would embolden the terrorist enemies that we face in the world.

Now, Professor Walt raises the suggestion that American action in Iraq would somehow inflame the Arab street and lead to a setback in the war on terrorism. This is exactly the argument that people made when we went into Afghanistan, if you will recall. I don't remember the Arab street being inflamed. I remember a deathly silence after our great victory over the Taliban. There was only one time when the Arab street was truly inflamed, and that was on 9/11 when they saw America brought low, when they saw America's weakness exposed. That was when there was dancing and jubilation on the street. When America showed strength, when we overthrew the Taliban, there was no dancing in the street. And similarly I suggest to you, whatever the direct links between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda, and I believe that Secretary Powell's presentation today was pretty convincing on that point ... but whatever the links, I think the indirect moral effect of backing down now after we have gone so far would be disastrous, because it would send a message of American weakness and irresolution that would simply reinforce the moral that al Qaeda took from the 1990s, which is that America is, in Osama bin Laden's words, "A paper tiger." I don't think that's the message we want to send, and I think it would be a very dangerous message to send for our future security and our interests in the region.


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J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn

Post Number: 13
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 1:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have seen anti-war activists around town gathering signatures. Perhaps this is the right place for me to voice my strong personal opposition to any anti-war (or for that matter, pro-war) resolution by South Orange Village Hall on behalf of the citizens of this town, should such a resolution be proposed.

We have both widely divergent and and subtly various political opinion here, generally well-informed and thoughtfully considered; diversity of thought is part of why South Orange is a good place to live. Those who wish to reduce politics and moral convictions to slogans and resolutions have every right to express themselves, and to attempt to persuade others of the correctness of their views. Under no circumstances, however, should they be permitted to represent their views as those of the town as a whole.

We should not allow what happened in Maplewood to happen here.

-Jennifer Crohn
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mayhewdrive
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive

Post Number: 178
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 1:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Unfortunately, many of the current Village Trustees too often represent their own views, REGARDLESS of the view of the town as a whole.
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Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave

Post Number: 4429
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 2:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The appropriate thing would be to pass a resolution supporting our troops, who are now in combat. Voting for a resolution against the war would amount to sedition now that we're at war.
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R S
Citizen
Username: Rollins23

Post Number: 3
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 4:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I love that people can have dissenting opinions, it is what makes this country great.

However, anyone who thinks this war is about the President "avenging" his father or cheapening the price of gasoline is woefully uneducated. There is no factual basis to back up these opinions.

If anything, it is embarrassing to George HW Bush that we had to finish something that he could not. And if all we wanted was cheap oil, why didn't we seize it during the first Gulf War?

You want to rally, fine, but you should think long and hard about the men and women in our military who are putting their lives on the line to protect you, your homes, and your families.
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argon_smythe
Citizen
Username: Argon_smythe

Post Number: 41
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 4:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

RS: Rallying for peace and thinking about the people in the military are not mutually exclusive pursuits, and you're wrong to imply that they are.

And Dave, if I'm not mistaken it was the protests that got us out of vietnam, not resolutions supporting our troops there. The argument that "once it's begun, it is counterproductive to oppose it" is an absolute nonsequitur.

I'm sure from these two points assumptions will be made that I'm rabidly against the current actions, which is not true. There are some aspects I am uncomfortable with and some I fully support. And, now that it's begun, I realistically do hope for an expedient outcome which will bring about positive change in the region. I suspect there are more people like me than you generally hear about out there.

What I see is both sides using faulty logic in an attempt to further their causes. Faulty logic may work on many people but it does not work on me. While I'm sure your arguments are very convincing to somebody who is already convinced, neither of your arguments are convincing reasons for someone who wants to protest, not to protest.

This is a difficult, multifaceted conflict which will have profound ripple effect for many years to come. Some of those effects will be positive, some negative, and some will be either/or depending on who you are. It's very nice that some people can reduce that all down to a bulleted list of platitudes and ignore all the obvious contradictions which exist in the current set of circumstances. I myself cannot.

Sorry to single the two of you out. Your modes of argument are, in fact, in the majority. And I do have the same problems with the same modes of argument which are being used by your opposition -- which is one of the main reasons I've not joined any protests and probably will continue not to.

But, my point is this. I am not joining protests. By not joining protests, I am certainly not aligned with you. I am not convinced by your oversimplifications of events, and I am not driven to self-doubt by your attempts to shame and embarass with insinuations of un-American conduct.


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Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave

Post Number: 4438
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 4:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was not talking about protests at all or people's rights to protest. I said it would be un-American for a body of elected officials who swear allegiance to the flag before every meeting to vote to oppose the actions of the US government.

Also, there's no real parallel with Vietnam, but that's a post for another time.

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