| Author |
Message |
    
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 1517
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 1:57 pm: |     |
Paranoid much, Yang? Bacata wasn't even addressing you. And the quote you find so offensive regarding "committed unions"? She is just reiterating the point of tomorrow's meeting.
And no one is NOT respecting your committed union. In fact, the laws of the US and all 50 states respect your union. We expect and will accept no less. That's what our struggle is about, that's what the meeting is about and that's what Bacata is talking about.
If you don't want people making comments about your daughter, then don't bring her up. You started this, remember? And as for labeling you homophobic? You are the only one who mentioned that word. I personally prefer to think of you as fearful of your daughter meeting, befriending and accepting other kinds of people. Although, I am curious to know if your stance on the promotion of after school clubs and activities extends to sports, language clubs, etc.
Oh, the irony.....! |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 1519
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 3:27 pm: | |
I stand corrected, someone else did mention the word homophobia first. I still prefer to think of Yang as afraid, but try to understand that those of us who are on the receving end of this line of thinking know all the code words. It does, indeed, make you suspicious of certain language and reasoning.
Even more reason to applaud clubs like Spectrum, where (hopefully) all the kids involved learn enough about each other not to cause pain or difficulty with "codes". |
viva
Citizen
Username: Viva
Post Number: 218
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 4:12 pm: | |
just for your information, regarding the co-presidents of spectrum, one is gay and the other is not. |
The New CFA
Citizen
Username: Cfa
Post Number: 852
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 6:29 pm: | |
greenetree, hmmmmmm, I think I'll need to prove it 
margu, we already are on the Rainbow Family e-mail list. We generally get them from Vicki and Steve. |
Wendyn
Citizen
Username: Wendyn
Post Number: 37
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 12:03 pm: | |
I know when I was in high school there was a lot of peer pressure to join the chess club. All of the jocks and cheerleaders and other popular kids were in it and were very agressive about getting other kids to join. It was talked about on the PA system and they even had stickers of knights that you just had to have. My dad was horrified and thought that strategic game playing should have no place in our schools and instead I should be learning how to hang out at the mall, cut classes, and walk on people's lawns on the way home.
OK, so Dad actually has a Phd in Integral Calculus and would have loved for me to join the chess club. Unfortunately for him I was a late blooming geek.
Come on, peer pressure to join a social club for kids who don't fit in? I think any social club that promotes getting along with different kinds of people is a good thing that doesn't happen enough in high school. Of course my kids will be going to school in Millburn so they might have to join the rich kid's club to learn how to get along with people who are different.  |
sportsnut
Citizen
Username: Sportsnut
Post Number: 340
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 2:26 pm: | |
Yang - I see where you are coming from because I had felt the same way you did. I still feel that G&L people feel the need to thrust themselves into your face to force you to accept the way they are. I personally may never get to that point but over the past few years I have given a fair amount of thought to the issue, spurred somewhat by the fact that my wife deals with some of the issues surrounding G&L families in the context of benefits.
I think of it in these terms. My views are my own. I don't expect anyone to change their views because of what I say or do. I hope that my two children do not realize that they are gay but if they do I will love them no less than I do now. I do think that you probably have a great relationship with your daughter but I do think it is possible that she may be just looking into it for now. I would imagine that even in this day and age it would be difficult to come to that realization during your high school years.
It is very hard to have the opinions I have and keep them from your children so that they may make their own choices. I think I am doing a good job, however others may say something to the contrary. And contrary to popular belief I don't go around spouting anti - gay rhetoric, telling silly homophobic jokes etc. I am content to live and let live.
To help me see the issue more clearly I focused on the issues my wife was working on. Clearly the laws of this country and the policies of many companies out there have not kept up with the times. IMO, it is an absolute travesty that domestic partners do not qualify for family benefits in the same manner as married heterosexuals do. Regardless of how you feel personally about the issue that is just plain stupid. I think Bacata's facts bear that out. How is her family any different from the "traditional" family? You would be hard pressed to find any union lasting that long, gay or straight. The same goes for legal rights, wills, finances etc. why should G&L couples be denied benefits solely because they are not the "traditional" man and wife. Just think about that for a second and realize how ludicrous it sounds. Then think about how you would feel if those same benefits were denied to a couple that had a white man and an asian woman. Really is it any different?
greenetree I think the kind of response you gave is what turns most people off. You preach diversity but then you slam someone who doesn't agree with you. Let it go, why feel the need to force Yang to accept you the way you are? You have a happy life. I am happy for you. I wish you the best of luck in trying to get what is due you and your spouse. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 1527
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 6:06 pm: | |
Sports-
I usually don't engage people like you; it ain't worth it. I am curious about one thing, tho.
What exactly is it that gay and lesbian do to 'thrust themselves in your face'? Hold hands with their partners in public? Kiss good-bye or hello at the train station? Function as a couple or address each other by 'honey, sweetie', etc. at the grocery store? Put down the name of my partner in the company bio along with all the other employees and their spouses?
I would like, just once, for one of you types who love to use the "they'd be OK if they only wouldn't shove it in our faces" excuse for why you aren't really homophobic, to tell me what it is that most lesbian or gay people that you know do to offend you so much that straight couples don't do all the time.
In your face? Do you mean that we should stay out of your face by never referring to our partners when people are talking about their weekends at the office Monday morning? Should we introduce our partners as 'friends'? My partner and I have been together for 13 and a half years. That's twice as long as the average length of time many of my coworkers have been married. And I'm guessing a good percent of the people reading this thread right now.
Is our relationship "in your face" because I'm pointing it out?
That's sooo nice you think that we should have medical benefits, along with everyone else. Thank you so much for that crumb. I deserve equality as long as I don't use the "L" word, huh?
I would love not to have to describe myself with the "L" word. But, as long as there are people who misjudge us, think there's something wrong with us, classify their children as "normal" if they are heterosexual or think of ME as different, then I will feel obligated to label myself. I feel an obligation to myself and my community to let people know that I am your neighbor, your boss, your employee, your daughter, your sister. I am the one you entrust your kids to, feed your cat, walk your dog. You promoted me and gave me the 'employee of the month' award. You put it in the Company profile of accomplishments when my work wins recognition.
And I am a lesbian.
I am many things, not just a lesbian. But as long as people like you keep insisting that my existence is something to be labeled as 'right' or 'wrong', then I will be "in your face". |
Yang
Citizen
Username: Yang
Post Number: 16
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 6:48 pm: | |
Greentree,
"What exactly is it that gay and lesbian do to 'thrust themselves in your face'?"
Exactly what you are doing. Let it go, enough has been said. Let it go. And your friend CFA, does not help. |
stomptap
Citizen
Username: Stomptap
Post Number: 281
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 7:29 pm: | |
Greentree, CFA, Bacata, you rock. Couldn't have said it better myself. Our kid is proud as hell to have three loving parents. Sportsnut, keep up the work, it may never come, but at least you are doing the right thing in front of your children! |
sportsnut
Citizen
Username: Sportsnut
Post Number: 343
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 9:07 pm: | |
greenetree - thank you for so eloquently proving my point. No where in my post did I state or imply that your relationship is not "normal." You're the one with the problem not me. I guess I should be glad that you lowered yourself to address me. I wish I could feel honored but I don't.
I'll let you know when the next heterosexual pride day parade is or the next meeting of heterosexual couples is. But I'm sure you'd be to above it all to attend.
Stomptap - thanks. I hope they grow to not to be tolerant like me but to not think twice about the topic. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 1528
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 10:28 pm: | |
Yang- Someone started a very upbeat, positive thread as a service to the community. It was an invitation to come and hear about a lawsuit. You could have left it alone, since you apparently find any public acknowledgment of non-heterosexual existence too "in your face".
But you didn't. You made snide remarks, raised issues with your daughter and then had the nerve to get upset when people responded. And the responses weren't given to p*ss you off; they were done for concern for your daughter, a kid none of us (to our knowledge) even know. Responses by people who don't want to see any child go thru the pain of telling a parent, in addition to the pain of realizing that they are a member of a second-class group. You don't want me "in your face"? Stay outta mine.
Sports- read it again, bubba. You didn't get it right the first time. And 'the next heterosexual pride parade...'? Puhleeze... Substitute 'white' for 'heterosexual', go back about 40 years & think about it.
I'm done with you both.
Now - on a happy note! 
I just came home from the All Roads... meeting at the Community Center. It was great! Very empowering! Five of the plaintiff couples spoke, as did many of our elected public officials from several levels of state government. The place was packed, with an overflowing crowd. Mostly gay, but many, many straight supporters and straight people who came with an open mind and good questions.
One thing that was a reality check was that two of the couples talked about doing all the paper work. You know the drill: power of attorneys, healthcare proxies, etc. And still being barred from the hospital rooms because they weren't 'family'. The Spouse and I have all the paperwork. It never occurred to us to worry about a clerk at the desk barring entry into a sick room. Married people don't even need to think about this kind of thing.
Someone else pointed out that one of the arguments people use against marriage rights for us is that it would 'trivialize' marriage. Then, the speaker went on to talk about the TV reality show 'Married by America'.
There were many couples in the room who had been together 11, 15, 30 years. If you weren't able to make the meeting, you can probably find out more by going on the Lambda website:
www.lambdalegal.org
BTW- I'm not affiliated with Lambda or Rainbow families, so I'm not the best source of info. I hope someone who knows more posts something here for those who are interested. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 2746
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 5:25 am: | |
"I don't mind straight people as long as they act gay in public" - Bumper sticker
Greentree, if Domestic Partnership acts are going to be passed you are going to need the support of moderates such as Sportsnut and to some degree myself. Hell, I am not comfortable with open shows of public affection among straights, giving some credence to our family legend that Cotton Mather was an ancestor I guees.
Until recently I did business in and visited Vermont regularly. After some sheepish remarks from my, presumably, straight business friends I can safely report that the state house hasn't crumbled to dust, Ben and Jerry are still making ice cream, Magic Hat hasn't moved out of state and no gun battles (easy to do in Vermont with their gun laws, or lack there of) have broken out in the streets of Burlington. This type of legislation makes sense. Don't blow it on the details.
"Fire when ready Gridley" |
jfburch
Citizen
Username: Jfburch
Post Number: 461
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 8:34 am: | |
Details?
Like, they can do what they want as long as they keep to their place? It's a free country but I don't want to have to associate with them (at my place of work, favorite diner etc.?)
If you have a problem with PDAs or romantic couples "flaunting" their love or lust that's fine.
If that distaste is particularized to gay couples then you have a problem--and it's not a detail--it's part of the point. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 2750
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 8:55 am: | |
What's a PDA?
Actually, I am not particularly homophobic to the best of my knowledge. I tend to view sexual orientation along the same lines as I view hair color, body type, etc. Not a major deal in other words.
I think this thread started about legal rights, something I support wholeheartedly. My suggestion is simply concentrate on this as an issue in forums such as this, and in the legislative arena. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 1529
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 9:13 am: | |
Bob-
I wholeheartedly agree. I would like to get back to the facts of how the lawsuits are doing and what we can do to help. The thread got nasty when people started making negative comments that had no place here.
FWIW - I think that most people follow their consciences, even when they have disagreements or bad feelings with individuals involved in a particular issue. Thus, I expect that Sports will do what he feels is right for him if he is ever in a position to vote or sign a petition or whatever (on this or any issue). And I will continue to be vocal when I am offended or feel that damage is done or stereotypes perpetuated by something someone says.
In fact, maybe we can use this thread, or start another, for people to post questions and answers about the Lambda lawsuit & DP legislation. Anyone associated with either action out there? |
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 1449
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 9:16 am: | |
Bobk: It's either "public displays of affection" or "personal digital assistant".
Me, I have a problem with the second one.
|
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 1604
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 3:21 pm: | |
Greentree - You said the "B" word! |
The New CFA
Citizen
Username: Cfa
Post Number: 854
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 5:03 pm: | |
Greenetree,
I am honored that Yang included me in the post addressed to you! |
Joan
Citizen
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 1507
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 6:56 pm: | |
To get back to the initial topic of this thread:
What can people do to help same sex partnerships gain comparable legal recognition to that extended now to heterosexual marriages? |
us2innj
Citizen
Username: Us2innj
Post Number: 576
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 9:36 pm: | |
Thanks Joan, this thread really needed to get back to the roots.
It is essential that the case that will be heard here in New Jersey, brought by Lambda Legal (representing seven same sex couples) not get hijacked by the NJ Assembly. It is felt is has a much better chance of passing on legal standing alone, and not on the emotions of politicians.
Contacting your local representatives and telling them you support equality for same sex relationships is a start. Also expressing that you feel this should not be manipulated by statewide county representation was also recommended.
At Tuesday nights Town Hall meeting, it was truly heartbreaking to hear of the fiasco that these couples had to go through if and when one of them needed hospitalization or medical attention. It would have been easier to grab a stranger off the street and have them claim to be your opposite sex spouse than to have your partner of 30 years assist you during a medical emergency.
My fear is that this type of legislation has no chance of passing on a national level, where it is severely needed. |
jfburch
Citizen
Username: Jfburch
Post Number: 464
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 - 10:33 pm: | |
Other things to do:
Write the NJ Attorney General (who's issued a motion to dismiss the case) and voice displeasure.
Attend one of the next town meetings--there's one in Summit on April 29 at 7 in the Summit Unitarian Church.
When the issue gets press, write letters to the editor supporting the case.
Spread the word among friends and collegues--there's still a fair bit of confusion about it--along with outright lack of awareness.
More info and resources on the legal case from LambdaLegal at:
http://www.lambdalegal.org/cgi-bin/iowa/cases/record2?record=179
More on domestic partnership legistlation:
http://www.familyequalityCoalition.org/
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Joan
Citizen
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 1511
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 10:53 am: | |
Thread drift alert:
Wendyn:
Were you or your father a student at EHHS circa 1960? At that time, the Chess Club was so popular that membership was restricted to Juniors and Seniors only. One of the club's members was so obsessed by Chess that he was said to have flunked out of High School as a result. He was also the club's greatest draw. This high school student had such a great local reputation for being a great chess player that other students were lining up for the chance to pay against him.
When I joined the Chess Club the year after he left, the club meeting area was still packed at every meeting. So yes, there can be some serious peer pressure out there to join a chess club.
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