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greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 1598
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 9:47 am: |     |
I'm starting this thread here because I don't want to initiate a debate. Let's assume, for the sake of this conversation, that most posters agree that in the last year, people have gotten really nasty and childish. Let's also say that levels of personal attacks and vitriol have lowered the level of discussion & driven away many MOL members who used to contribute thoughtful, carefully worded opinions to the most controversial subjects.
So, how do we fix this? Now, I know that this board is privately owned by The Brothers Ross (TBR), and that they may be perfectly happy with the way things are. However, in Greenetreeland, I'm tossing out an idea (which I of course realize would put a heavy burden on TBR). I will say up front that I have neither the desire nor the wherewithall to have my own board, so take it with a grain of salt:
1. All MOL members would have to register with a name, address and telephone number. They would send this information to TBR, who would verify it with a personal phone call to the number and a snail mail letter addressed to the person. The would-be registrant would then have to return a signed affidavit (satating that they are who they say they are & live at the address) in the mail. The original letter mailed to the registrant would be marked to notify sender (TBR) of any forwarding address, so that people couldn't use bogus addresses. TBR would not accept POBs or mail drops.
2. Registrants would pay a one-time fee ($10, $25?) to cover the cost & encourage only the serious folks to register.
3. We would all still use screen names to post. However, there would be a registrants-only area where members could look and see the real name and town of the poster. Private line could still work the way it does now.
This way, lurkers could still read, we could all have conversations & maybe, just maybe the conversation would return to a more civilized, adult level.
What do people think? |
crazyguggenheim
Citizen
Username: Crazyguggenheim
Post Number: 355
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 10:25 am: | |
Call me crazy, but what? No jokes?
Call me crazy |
jem
Citizen
Username: Jem
Post Number: 714
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 10:31 am: | |
Interesting idea, Greenetree. I've been feeling unhappy with the general tone of MOL for quite awhile now, and have certainly expressed that feeling to Dave a couple of times. I'd be willing to register and pay a small fee if it would help return a more civil tone to MOL.
I wonder if implementation of your suggestion would still allow people to post who didn't want to register? I guess if that were the case, nothing would change. Anyway, here's hoping for a somewhat kinder, gentler MOL.
Joy Markel |
algebra2
Citizen
Username: Algebra2
Post Number: 877
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 10:39 am: | |
Greenetree -- I don't see that there's anything to fix. I like it here. I don't want to be a part of some boring serious board where the only discussion is about the BOE or where to get a sewing machine fixed. I enjoy sarcastic humor and don't "see" the nastiness -- sorry. Eyespy has been posting his childish humor for years and I find that funny too. Why is there a need for registered users to know my name? A signed affidavit? Does it have to be notarized?
I am a memeber of a handful of message board communities and would have no part in any community like this. I like the bantering back and forth. I like jokes. There is enough seriousness in real life, I certainly don't need my virtual life to be so serious and boring. |
jab
Citizen
Username: Jab
Post Number: 20
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 10:42 am: | |
It seems to me that many people on MOL know the real identity of those who use whimsical screen names when making "nasty and childish" remarks. This makes me think that knowing other people can find out who you really are might not deter such remarks.
On the other hand, I agree that people should self-police. I've been visiting MOL less often lately, because many of the arguments that people have been having are neither constructive nor interesting. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 1599
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 10:54 am: | |
Don't get me wrong! Anyone who reads my posts knows I love a good joke or wittiness as much as the next person. Silliness, irrelevant (and irreverant) topics are not the problem. None of the topics are the problem. Just the nasty tone some posters have when they disagree. Disagreements are fine.
I know that I have chosen to no longer participate in the Soapbox. And since I am not posting, I also find myself lurking less and less. I miss the MOL community, but I just can't take the visciousness. The other alternative is for TBR to ban certain posters. That doesn't seem to work & people don't seem to want that. I just wonder if some of the posters would be so derogatory if their name were 'semi-public'. Not everyone has Art's...cajones. And while I sometimes find his posts irritating, long-winded and I don't always agree, I don't recall Art being nasty or calling names.
(Art, you have the dubious distinction of being the first person who comes to mind as an example  .)
For the record, Art knows who I am, so I'm not being a hypocrite.
Thread drift:
I actually giggled when I read Eyespy's latest posting this morning. Can't believe I'm admitting it!
In the spirit of kindness and gentleness: Happy Holidays to all! |
redY67
Citizen
Username: Redy67
Post Number: 30
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 11:01 am: | |
I definitely don't like the tone of a lot of the posters. I don't think going through all that trouble to register is going to make people be less "nasty and childish" Alhough we know who a lot of people really are, most are anonomyous which I think allows them to be much more rude than they would be if you knew who they were. I have been attacked several times on some of my posts, and wondered to myself if the person attacking me would say that to my face. I say if you don't like it, don't post. We are debating among our peers, and some of them like to fight dirty, but makes for good reading! |
jem
Citizen
Username: Jem
Post Number: 715
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 11:14 am: | |
I don't want a totally dry, serious board either, Algebra2 - I'm assuming that lovely little jab was meant for me, since I posted most recently about sewing machine repair - but in my opinion, things have gone just a bit beyond a point at which I personally feel comfortable. Guess that's my problem, but I'm not the only one, by any means, who feels this way.
And FWIW, I think EYESPY should get a special dispensation - he's usually good for a giggle. |
algebra2
Citizen
Username: Algebra2
Post Number: 879
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 11:39 am: | |
Jem, I didn't mean that there was anything wrong with posting questions, geeze -- I've asked more advice than anyone! |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 2920
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 12:12 pm: | |
Basically, something very similar to this was tried a year or so ago with the "Real Name" section of the board. Discussions, the few there were, tended to be more interlectual, polite and not as much fun as on the regular board. Also, not enough people joined to get a real diversity of opinion. The most fun I had was trying to figure out the regular screen names of those who posted in the real name section.  |
jab
Citizen
Username: Jab
Post Number: 21
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 12:36 pm: | |
I thought that jem was referring to me when she mentioned that "lovely little jab" until I finished reading the sentence and realized that it was about sewing machine repair. |
doulamomma
Citizen
Username: Doulamomma
Post Number: 123
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 1:04 pm: | |
I see both sides - I love the fun/silly stuff, & the irreverrence & views contrary to my own...and I also would not visit a boring, buttoned up board...but I have to agree with Greentree - the tone has gotten nastier of late & I think the free exchange of ideas that I love is at risk of being chilled because people are uncomfortable at the prospect of being attacked.
Maybe I say this because my screen name is not a pseudonym (& I know that's up to me to change if I want to), but I don't think it's that simple. I think getting rid of screen names will actually keep many from feeling free to post at all & I wouldn't want that. And I hear Algebra2's point about not seeing the problem - I know not everyone agrees that there is a problem, but I think that enough people do (feel that there is a problem)to warrant asking folks to consider their tone when they post & then a bit more "time outs" from Dave if needed. |
ml1
Citizen
Username: Ml1
Post Number: 858
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 1:13 pm: | |
First off, I'd say the truly mean and angry posters number less than five out of all the people who post on MOL. A few others are just trying to be funny and missing the mark -- they're harmless. Nearly everyone else is pretty cool.
The solution to misbehaving posters is to ignore the stuff you think is nasty or childish. I've had people respond to me in what I thought was an inappropriate way, and I just ignored them -- and still do. There are a couple of people who are clearly angry with the entire world, and I won't engage them in an exchange.
Personally, I think it's just the nature of public discourse these days. For some people, it's not ok to disagree respectfully. Discussions are so polarized that the opponents are not just mistaken, they're immoral (or amoral), cowardly, stupid, idiotic, looney, deluded, gullible, naive, hypocritical, selfish, etc., etc.
I guess the answer is -- if you don't like it, stay out of the Soapox (or sandbox, if you prefer). |
doulamomma
Citizen
Username: Doulamomma
Post Number: 125
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 1:23 pm: | |
I mostly agree with you ml1 & also just ignore it, but it's not just the soapbox & I think Greentree's original point that s/he sees that s/he is visiting less in order to avoid the negativity is probaby happening to many. |
ml1
Citizen
Username: Ml1
Post Number: 859
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 2:32 pm: | |
doulamomma,
I should have mentioned that I also don't like a lot of the stuff I read -- I'm sympathetic to Greenetree's position. But I still read and I still post, because I enjoy it and I refuse to let a very small handful of angry people keep me away. Unfortunately, I don't see a way to keep those people out, or force them to behave, without changing what's also good about MOL.
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Brian O'Leary
Citizen
Username: Brianoleary
Post Number: 1256
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 2:44 pm: | |
Where do I get a sewing machine fixed? |
Joan
Citizen
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 1583
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 7:05 pm: | |
Greenetree:
I don't see where your plan would work unless the entire board were to become restricted to registered members only. Under such a proposal, registration criteria would become so cumbersome for propective new members (and any existing members not personally known by Jaime and/or Dave) that much of the spontaneity of the posting by existing members and much of the joy of meeting new posters would be lost.
The registration process you propose would also become far too cumbersome for Dave and Jaime to institute. How long would it take to process just the 2,000+ people who are presently registered?
Even if your proposal were to be implemented, I don't think these changes would have much impact on the tenor of most people's posts. We tried "real name only" posting before and it really didn't work very differently from "choose your own handle" posting. Since you participated in that experiment, you know that the same person would post in very much the same way in both venues. |
Joan
Citizen
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 1584
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 7:26 pm: | |
I agree with Greenetree that there has been a steady rise in personal attacks and general nastiness in the past year. I don't know what caused it but I do have a few suggestions for controlling it that may be somewhat less drastic than Greenetree's proposal.
1. If you truly care about the tenor of posts being made to this board, keep your own posts as free of personal attacks and gratuitous nastiness as you possibly can.
The fewer of us who engage in gratuitous nastiness, the kinder and gentler the overall tenor of posts to this board will become.
2. Try to ignore posters making such nasty remarks (thereby hopefully denying them the recognition they are seeking). Don't prolong the unpleasantness by calling them on their nasty posts. This just escallates the number of nasties out there.
3. Attempt to deflect from the nastiness by engaging in humor, thread drift or some other technique to bring things back to a more appropriate mood. When Timmeh first appeared on the Board, his or her one word post would usually be enough to bring things back in focus.
We need a resurgence of this type of subtle self-moderation.
4. If things get really unpleasant despite trying the above tactics, bring the specific posts (and posters) to the moderator's attention.
Dave and Jaime are the final arbiters of what is or is not appropriate on their board and they are the only ones with the power to suspend posters or delete posts.
A word of caution though: Nastiness at times can be extremely subjective and we have to be careful about how peer pressure is applied.
There is a big distinction between accusing someone of being an idiot and saying that the idea they have just proposed is idiotic.
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crazyguggenheim
Citizen
Username: Crazyguggenheim
Post Number: 356
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 7:48 pm: | |
Call me crazy, but three words....war and politics.
Call me crazy |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 1600
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 9:37 pm: | |
Joan-
I realize it's cumbersome. I also thought that one of the reasons that the real-name posting section didn't work was because it was cumbersome to sign in.
I agree with all those who suggest ignoring the infantile posters. For a very long time I did it. I've answered a few back when I thought comments perpetuated negative stereotypes. And I've tried to stick to debunking the stereotypes, not calling names. Unfortunately, I find the handful of posters who engage in the behavior & personal attacks to be so distracting as to drive me away.
I get the impression that some people thought I got fed up with the Midtown Direct thread because people disagreed with me. Au Contraire; it was the manner of the attacks & personal comments that did it.
It's weird, because I feel as if I 'know' many people on this board, even tho I have no idea who many are. There are some whom I enjoy so much as to imagine they are a favorite neighbor whose company I enjoy in person. Then there are those 3-6 others: I choose not to spend my social time with people who are vicious, childish and get their kicks out of deriding other people, so why would I spend my
virtual time with them? |
ml1
Citizen
Username: Ml1
Post Number: 867
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 11:57 pm: | |
greenetree,
that's why I keep coming back -- most of the people here are decent folks.
Let's face it -- this virtual space is a community and we've got all types here, including a couple of village idiots. On the other hand, ninety-nine percent of the people here are ones I enjoy speding my virtual time with. |
barleyrooty
Citizen
Username: Barleyrooty
Post Number: 605
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2003 - 9:02 am: | |
A couple of thoughts:
Firstly, I think this board should be as easy to use as possible as it encourages the spread of posters and readers that we get. Make it one step harder to use and it loses massive value. Being involved with newcomers to town I can't tell you how grateful most are that this resource is here.
Secondly, this is not the first time that this has happened here. It's the War. Last time it was about taxes. The time before elections. Anytime there's a divisive issue floating in the community that people feel strongly about it'll happen.
Thirdly, any problem we have can be and has been in the past solved by moderation. I think Dave & Jaime have done an awesome job over time of keeping the tone reasonable without being too heavy handed.
Without in anyway wanting in any way to second guess them, I suspect that discussions like this are maybe an indication to them that they need to turn up the heat just a little. I assume their success has come from adjusting the process gradually over time. I do get a little concerned that Dave got so involved in recent debates. While I respect what he writes a great deal and he certainly has the right to express it, I think it's very tough to do that and then continue to keep a firm hand on the tiller. If it was me I'd be constantly second-guessing myself as to whether or not I was warning or banning someone fairly who was disagreeing with and attacking me, and would probably be a little looser as a result. If you can still do it as well anyway Dave, then my respect for you doubles. |
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