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Message |
    
jrf
Citizen
Username: Jrf
Post Number: 322
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 9:07 pm: | 
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http://www.southorange.org
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deborahg
Citizen
Username: Deborahg
Post Number: 562
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 10:14 am: |
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Congratulations. And special kudos to "Line B" for a thoughtful, well-run campaign that addressed important issues in a compelling way. |
mayhewdrive
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 273
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 12:30 pm: |
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Look at the awesome power of Line B - without a contested race, does anyone really think Beifus would now be a pile of rubble, the Supermarket would be approved & a plywood/chain link fence would be up around the Arts Center?
Maybe we should have elections more often...say weekly?  |
Ed May
Citizen
Username: Edmay
Post Number: 1475
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 1:26 pm: |
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Congratulations to Line A on your victory.
Congratulations to Line B on a race well contested.
Ed May
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J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 83
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 2:11 pm: |
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I second Ed May's congratulations and add my thanks to all the candidates who made the effort to discuss at length their views on matters of importance to the community. |
NancyJanow
Citizen
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 831
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 4:31 pm: |
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And thanks to the Brothers Ross for supplying a forum that the computer literarti could use. As much as I supported Line A's goals, it did disappoint me that only Mark utilized S/MOL to a great extent.
Now is the time for both lines, and all their supporters, old and new residents, computer comfortable or not, to come together, listen to each other ideas and realize that no one side has all the answers. Progress takes time, often a awful lot of time and we are on the right track. But there are a lot of new fresh faces and ideas that need to join with the more established residents and together, South Orange can only go forward.
NCJ aka LL
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Washashore
Citizen
Username: Washashore
Post Number: 8
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 11:00 pm: |
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I wish to comment on the title of this thread: "Line A wins big."
Line A:
1. was composed of incumbents who have control of media resources (Gaslight; ad dollars to use or withhold from the Snooze Wrecker (Bets, I love this moniker!)to coax an endorsement; cable TV - how many times was the League debate rebroadcast? etc)
2. had an in-town store (pharmacy) from which to broadcast their message constantly to a captive audience.
3. possessed the ability to get a wrecking ball on the Beifus site a day before the election.
Line B:
1. supporters came together a few months (not twenty years) prior to the election.
2. was successful in drawing out 35% of registered voters, instead of the usual 20 or so percent.
3. Won 40% of the vote after only a few short months working together. After over 20 years on the hustings, the incumbents walked away with only a few more votes.
Yes, Line A won. Given the above, how "big" a win is questionable. |
argon_smythe
Citizen
Username: Argon_smythe
Post Number: 58
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 8:46 am: |
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All right now Washashore, seriously.
You're actually criticizing Bill Calabrese for running a local business? You've made this odd allegation at least twice already in all of 8 posts to this board. I wasn't aware that as a South Orange resident I was required to enter that establishment and get spoon fed a message "constantly." Does he have some sort of secret force that is going to hunt me down because I've never set foot in the place? Maybe use some of those magical wrecking-ball abilities he possesses against me?
I sense that you're attempting to make the point that Line B brought in a good showing and that the points they raised are ones that should be addressed regardless of the Line A victory, but honestly I have to admit you're going about it in a very odd and unnecessary way. I agree with that point, but really:
"Control of media resources?" The Gaslight, News Record, and local cable? I'm sorry -- lol. It could be argued equally that OSO had as much "control" of the internet media, via this board.
The wrecking ball thing... I mean really. Are you actually accusing the people of this town of being that stupid? You actually contend that a significant bloc of voters turned up because a building got knocked down the day before the election? There is a pile of rubble surrounded by an ugly fence there now. This is what you think "rocks the vote" in this town?
Now it also seems that the "Line A" team has been campaigning for twenty years, culminating in this very election!
If Line B drew out 35% of registered voters, they must have drawn out a significant portion of them to vote line A. Anyway, I thought it was Line A's uncanny ability to control wrecking balls that drew out 35% of registered voters.
For the record, I voted for individuals, not a line, and so had a split ticket.
Again I think the point that I think you're trying to make is a good one, but this stuff just doesn't hold much water to me at least and certainly none of your points have anything to do with why I personally -- and I hope many others -- decided to vote for some (or all) Line B candidates.
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Washashore
Citizen
Username: Washashore
Post Number: 9
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 9:24 am: |
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Dear Argon:
1. I am not criticizing Billy for running a local store. I commented on his ability to use that store as a campaign pulpit to a captive audience. That is a fact. That you personally never went into the store is irrelevant to how it was used during the campaign.
2. To equate the incumbents' politicization (sp?) of the Gaslight to partisan Line A politics (my tax dollars at work); and economic pressure on the Snooze Wrecker (the N-R is a LOCAL COMMUNITY NEWSPAPER. The biggest political thing to happen in this town in 20 years was the 2003 contested election for BOT. Yet, the N-R did not even cover the League of Women Voters Debate, much less report on it afterward. Local? Community? It certainly missed its calling on both fronts in the way it "covered" the S.O. BOT election) with the virtues of MOL as a communication tool is a bit of a stretch. While MOL is a great place to learn and to chat, it is hardly the mass media tool of the two publications mentioned above.
3. Had OSO not been in the running, 35% of the voters would never have made it to the polls. Irrespective of how they ultimately voted.
4. My point was to question the use of the word "big" in describing Line A's vote tally. While I appreciate your response, it has in no way reduced the relevance of my comments in how their tally should be characterized.
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Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 4665
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 9:54 am: |
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There was certainly control of taxpayer funded media and the wrecking ball at Beifus the day before election day was certainly an odd and very disturbing coincidence (to me at least).
MOL has always had a much greater degree of participation from Maplewood. Probably 85%M to 15%SO, perhaps 90/10. The readership in the two towns exceeds that of the News-Record, I believe, but we need to expand more in SO. I need to work on this and plan to. |
vermontgolfer
Citizen
Username: Vermontgolfer
Post Number: 22
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 10:44 am: |
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Big, little, infinitesimal, what difference does it make. If we all really believe in this town and want it to succeed we need to turn down the rhetoric and speak and act intelligently, constructively and progressively to make things better.
BTW, does anyone really believe a wrecking ball made any difference, frankly how many of the 35% of the population even passed by and knew it happened before the election. |
Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 4667
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 10:56 am: |
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It's not so much how big an effect the wrecking ball made as it is a sign of an unusual arrangement between government and private industry for political gain.
If we really believe in this town and want it to succeed, we don't turn blind eyes to things like this either. Nor to unnecessary tax abatements for hot properties along a midtown direct line. Think about it. |
vermontgolfer
Citizen
Username: Vermontgolfer
Post Number: 23
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 11:25 am: |
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Dave,
If the current administration really had any control over this, do you think they really would have waited this long. As Mark previously posted, a perfect campaign ploy would to have had the ribbon cutting just prior to the election.
Even if I would agree with you, which I don't which is what makes this country great and this board valuable, is to come back to my question of how many voters even knew it happened?
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Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 4669
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 11:32 am: |
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Anyone within a half mile radius who heard it. |
Edwin R. Matthews
Citizen
Username: Edwinrmatthews
Post Number: 11
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 10:18 pm: |
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David Ross There has never been an unnecessary tax abatement given in South Orange. The only developer of the four or five that wanted to build on the third street sight who initially did not think they would need a tax abatement to build on the site was LCOR. After they found out what the taxes would be they realized that development of the site was not financially feasible without a tax abatement. Thus if the sight was to be developed a tax abtement was necessary. This is the one fact that everyone overlooks.
To suggest that this years election was the most significant thing that happened in South Orange in the last twenty years is silly. It was not even the most significant election in the last twenty years or even the most contested election.
There were two tickets which presented the voters with two different views of how they felt the redevelopment was going. Each side articulated its views. In the end the voters chose to stay the course with the incumbents. They won. In most elections if a candidate gets 60% of the vote it is a landslide. (I may be wrong but I don't believe any presidential candidate (U.S.) has ever received more than 60%.) In the last election the difference between the third and fourth trustee candidates was approximately 80. Making the race for the last position much closed than this years election.
In the end all seven candidates acquitted themselves well. All seven should be commended and congratulated for stepping forward and running. Brian will continue his service on the Board of Education. Hopefully David and Eric can find a way to continue their involvement in a constructive way.
All of the other nonsense is just sour grapes. The silliest is the assertion that Bill uses the pharmacy to campaign to a captive audience (Like he is runnning communist reeducation camp) Bill has spent nine and a half hours a day six days a week for the last 16 years dealing with residents problems from little Village Hall (the Pharmacy). Funny no one complains when they are asking him for a favor. |
Washashore
Citizen
Username: Washashore
Post Number: 11
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 9:22 am: |
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Mr. Matthews: I second mayhew's request to know who YOUR department head is so that we can register complaints about your knowledge of village happenings, and your utter contempt for anyone who voices disagreement with you.
Rather than calling Billy's use of his pharmacy as a campaign pulpit a "communist reeduction camp", it might more appropriately be likened to the Republicans who think that ALL messages are theirs to control (Check out the current FCC head, Michael Powell, for his views on what constitutes communications in a democratic society: that all sources of media be owned by ONE entity. As I posted earlier - The Gaslight; economic pressure on the N-R to coax an endorsement; cable tv station that re-broadcast the League of Women Voters' debate far too few a number of times, and, yes, the use of Billy's pharmacy as his soap box, all smack of THIS interpretation.)
The tone of your replies, the lies of your replies, the condescension in your replies, leads me to wonder when YOUR contract will be up so that we can carry on more personnel discussions publicly here (as you, apparently, prefer), leading, one can only wish, to your immediate replacement. |
peteglider
Citizen
Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 110
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 10:02 am: |
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you gotta be kidding me. you get a clear explanation, and a personal opinion (and isn't that what these boards are about) -- and you think its an attitude problem?
since neither of you can keep in check your ongoing cynical and perpetually negative attitudes -- you have no reason to gripe. this offers nothing nothing positive to the discourse.
the election is over -- you may disagree -- but then be constructive. |
vermontgolfer
Citizen
Username: Vermontgolfer
Post Number: 24
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 10:13 am: |
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Ditto to peteglider. The time has come that as a community we all work together to make South Orange the type of community we want it to be. To consistently complain and re-hash all this, frankly becomes counter productive. Whether you voted Line A or Line B, the time now is to move on and be constructive. |
Washashore
Citizen
Username: Washashore
Post Number: 12
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 11:19 am: |
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Dear peteglider and vermontgolpher:
I thought I was being constructive...by suggesting that Ed Matthews be immediately replaced |
woodstock
Citizen
Username: Woodstock
Post Number: 135
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 12:16 pm: |
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I'm curious about the alleged pressure that the current village administration put on the News Record.
Is there any evidence of this, or are you simply stating that since the current administration controls the purse strings, they control where money is spent w/r/t media? If it's the former, plase make this evidence availble. If it's the former, stop whining. Every incumbent in every election at any level of government has the same advantage. You're implying there was some wrongdoing.
Besides, how many SO residents actually read the N-R anyway? And anyone who is swayed by a newspaper endorsement alone is an idiot incapable of making up their own mind, and shouldn't be allowed to vote.
Also, does the village administration determine the schedule for the cable station? I don't get it, so I don't even know what's on or when. |
Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 4677
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 12:43 pm: |
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LCOR is an enormous company and did not need the taxpayer funded abatement. If they passed on it, another developer could have been found, who realized the value of the property and income potential.
It was corporate welfare, in my opinion.
The News-Record made an endorsement without attending the debate. They didn't even cover the debate. Even if there was no pressure by the incumbents on the paper, the paper acted without journalistic ethics on their coverage of the campaign. |
argon_smythe
Citizen
Username: Argon_smythe
Post Number: 61
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 4:38 pm: |
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If there's one thing I learned from this thread, I gotta check out this pharmacy!
Well I take back my statement that I thought Washashore was trying to make a valid point by dubious means. I see a lot of "utter contempt" but none originating from Edwin Matthews. This is just plain mean-spirited rubbish... onward to better threads...
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woodstock
Citizen
Username: Woodstock
Post Number: 137
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 5:31 pm: |
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Dave,
I'm not sure if you were responding to me...
As far as LCOR, I haven't cemented my opinion of providing the PILOT, mainly because I don't feel I have enough information about what "could have been," had the town not gone with LCOR.
As for the N-R, I wouldn't hold Line A responsible for the News-Record's bad editorializing any more than I would hold the subject of a story of that Blair guy at the Times responsible. Bad journalism is bad journalism, regardless of the subject of the story (or editorial).
I still don't quite get the whole endorsement thing by newspapers. I thought they were supposed to at least have a veil of impartiality, in theory of not in practice. To me, endorsing a politician at all compromises jouneralistic integrity. |
Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 4679
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 7:13 pm: |
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Woodstock, I was responding in general to the topic.
As far as LCOR and other developers, I think about it this way: if individuals buy homes to fix up and sell at a profit and THEY don't get PILOT agreements, but seem to make out just fine, then WHY THE HECK does a big developer need a PILOT? Especially next to a MIDTOWN DIRECT station? My sense is that we need tougher negotiators and better marketers.
The N-R could have done a lot better. |
Soda
Citizen
Username: Soda
Post Number: 1005
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 11:38 pm: |
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Another college town near and dear to the Oracle (Chuckie Heston's an alum) seems to have similar issues. Just so you don't start thinking there's anything unique about these questions:
http://www.dailynorthwestern.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/05/16/3ec5795ee28c2
-The Oracle of MOL
BTW: Moses wants to get in on some of this online action; he's been pricing Macs over at "Touched-By-The-Finger-Of-God Eddie's", so maybe there's hope for Mr. Calabrese yet... |
Shelley Stile
Citizen
Username: Sstile
Post Number: 32
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 12:05 am: |
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As an active member of this community, and someone who is committed to making South Orange a better place to live, I accept the results of the election and want to move forward.
Nonetheless, I must say that I fully agree with the assesement of the News-Record's coverage and endorsements during this election. Days before the election, I wrote to their owners and asked to have my subscription cancelled due to their blatant one-sidedness. Their endorsement of the entire Line A slate? They could not see the worth of any of the Line B candidates? Especially after stating over and over in the past year that the present administration needed to work more with the public, release information on SOPAC and establish a DRC? Exactly what happened in the last week prior to the election to make them take such a radical turn in their opinions?
The fact of the matter is that the difference between Calabrese and O'Leary was a few hundred votes and that is not a landslide. Far from it. It says that nearly 40% of the residents of this town are NOT happy with the redevelopment and the way that the BOT runs the town.
I am a loyal customer of Bill Calabrese's. I like him immensely on a personal level. I do not agree with the way he has handled the redevelopment. There is no doubt that he has an ace in the hole with the pharmacy and the elderly voters in this town. So be it.
The use of the Gaslight and the SOuth Orange Village website to campaign is wrong and smacks of undue influence and would probably be judged as an out and out infraction of campaign laws.
If the Line B candidates had been more aggresive in exposing many of the faults of the present administration, I think that people would have thought twice about voting for Line A. I know for a fact that none of the Line B candidates chose to do anything that would appear to be negative campaigning. Esoecially Brian. Although I find that morally responsible and admirable, it did not help their cause.
But we need to move forward and work together to make South Orange agreat place. SOAR will continue to act as a public watch-dog group as regards the redevelopment of South Orange. We continue to look into SOPAC and are presently working on a mediation process with the State of New Jerseyin order to procure the documents that we have been requesting since January. We continue to support and lobby for a Downtown Redevelopment Corporation that will put the process in the hands of capable professionals.
Here's to South Orange. |
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