| Author | Message | ||
     peteglider Citizen Username: Peteglider Post Number: 168 Registered: 8-2002 |
Unfortunately -- far too few facts posted, far too many opinions (not backed up with facts). It does get weary... I appreciate the discourse here -- but its more of a pulpit than a real forum. Typical of most online message boards, in my opinion. So -- maybe expectations of participants should be more realistic? That does raise the question, for me, so when and how can there be a real forum to discuss these issues? Pete | ||
| doublea Citizen Username: Doublea Post Number: 219 Registered: 3-2003 |
Mayhew: I read the minutes and I thought the suggestion from one of the public speakers to have the owner of the quarry make a charitable contribution of the quarry to a land trust was a good idea.  | ||
| Washashore Citizen Username: Washashore Post Number: 50 Registered: 4-2003 |
I placed a question in a "new thread" that has gone unanswered, probably because it has also gone unnoticed. So, I'll ask again here. Mr. Rosner, in preparation for the July 31 PILOT Informational meeting that Messrs. Gross and Matthews are holding for the residents of South Orange, what forms of advertising does the Village plan to use in an effort to maximize turnout? I assume there will be ads in the July 24 and July 31 News-Record, in the Gaslight, and in the Star Ledger (you mentioned in a previous post that you think the Ledger reaches more South Orange residents than the N-R). Are these assumptions valid? How else is the Village planning to advertize this meeting? What time will it start? Is it still planned for the Baird Center? | ||
| doublea Citizen Username: Doublea Post Number: 220 Registered: 3-2003 |
Mark: Do the other trustees and Village President plan to attend? I know that Trustees Joyce and Rosen have previously indicated that they will attend. | ||
| bets Citizen Username: Bets Post Number: 346 Registered: 6-2001  |
Mr. Matthews, I can't believe that you've sunk to this level. You found it necessary to register a Maplewood On-Line name in May to defend the "Leadership With Vision" slate. You must have been reading this board for quite some time -- why were we denied your voice prior to that? Why bow out now? You really denigrate yourself by this attempt to discredit the Coalition. The history is here for all to read. The opposition, the obstinancy, the outright hostility to the concerned citizenry that became the Coalition to Preserve South Orange. And that was years ago! Why don't you come out of your self-imposed banishment long enough to explain why the Beifus site sits idle (after that spectacular demolition just days before the election); why the fence around the alleged SOPAC site was erected just weeks before the election but still serves no purpose (other than interfering with commuter traffic). Please explain the agenda for the meeting you promised on July 31 and what the format will be. Your employers await. I also would like to see the meeting advertised according to Sunshine Law regulations. Thank you. Betsy Black | ||
| doublea Citizen Username: Doublea Post Number: 222 Registered: 3-2003 |
Pete: I can understand your dismay somewhat about "too many opinions, not enough facts" but I think there are certainly enough facts in the last few posts and the minutes of the BOT meeting where we were told it was a "done deal" to take the dialogue from opinion to factual. Although I tend to agree with some of the things raised by a particular poster, I don't think raising personal or personnel issues is helpful. I can only guess that there is some history there that might shed some light. Nevertheless, I do think this forum has been extremely informative and constructive in the dialogue it has allowed between members of the community. I do think that even if you look at what it took to get an officer at the N.J. Transit parking lot exit, you have to appreciate the usefulness of this forum. As Mayhew said above, most of us appreciate the time and effort Mark Rosner devotes to this forum and also his willingness to listen and be reasonable. | ||
| doublea Citizen Username: Doublea Post Number: 223 Registered: 3-2003 |
As an addendum,it is not uncommon for a municipal attorney in N.J.to see himself (or herself) firstly as the representative of the individuals or body that hires him (or her). After all, it is an non-competitive appointment. This is not meant to be critical of the legal abilities of our village council, but to point out the advesarial position that exists many times, not just in our community,between the residents of a community and the municipal attorney. I have seen it elsewhere; we are not unique in this respect. However, we may be unique in having this forum to have a dialogue between members of the public and public officials. We may also be unique in the dedication and ability of members of our community. | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 508 Registered: 4-2002 |
I will ask Ed Matthews about the meeting. I doubt it will be in the Gaslight, and if advertised it will probably only be in one paper. I don't think many people read the notices in the papers and history has shown that the most effective way to get people to a meeting is through word of mouth, email's, MOL,etc. I think the date has to be changed because there is a SOPAC meeting that night (just announced the other day and they set their own meeting dates) and John Gross (away on vacation this week) has to be attend that meeting. I would prefer the meeting to be at the Baird Center but I guess it will depend on availability. | ||
| doublea Citizen Username: Doublea Post Number: 224 Registered: 3-2003 |
Thanks Mark. I think it is important that all trustees and the Village President attend the meeting. Will there be an opportunity to ask questions? | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 509 Registered: 4-2002 |
There will be a chance to ask questions and offer comments. I would guess that most of the trustees will try to attend. | ||
| deepthroat Citizen Username: Deepthroat Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2003 |
Alas, poor Edwin. I've got your number. Well, I'm truly sorry that I've been part of your decision not to be part of our forum any longer. You know, "of the people, by the people, for the people." My biggest question is whether your hours of damage control on this board are chargeable to the town? Also, Edwin, to keep you in good graces with Billy Boy and the enforcers, you might wish to explain and review state statutes under NJSA 40:A11 et seq. before they even think of granting John Gross a 5 year gig at tomorrow night's trustee meeting. And tell Scary Mary "he's using her" for me. Love & kisses, DT | ||
| bets Citizen Username: Bets Post Number: 347 Registered: 6-2001 |
I received a privateline message from Mr. Matthews in response to my post of Thursday night. Though I would never consider posting a privateline to the board under normal circumstances, I have made it plain in the past to Mr. Matthews that I am not willing to pursue an off-board private correspondence with him. I emailed him on Friday night, shortly after I received his privateline, that I would post it to the board after 24 hours unless he could provide a definitive reason why I shouldn't. I have not heard from him. I am not now nor ever have been a due-paying member of the Coalition to Preserve South Orange. With that said: ----------------------------------------------------------- Initially let me tell you I don't understand your comment "I can't believe you've sunk to this level". I did not register on MOL: to defend the leadership with vision slate and indeed did not post publically after the end of March or early April because I was accused of being the press agent for that slate. I did send private emails to respond to people's questions and to correct mistaken notions people had. (Most of my early messages went to David Lackey and Brian O'Leary particularly of the issue of tax abatements.) Despite what you think prior to the time I registered (perhaps March 2003) I had infrequently read the message board and most of the time I did it was on others computers who showed me the postings. After sending a number of private emails I was asked by people to post to help educate people. I reluctantly did against the advise of a number of people who told me it would be a waste of time. I have concluded after posting for two or three months they were right. The fact is very few people who post don't have an ongoing agenda and most of it is negative. Very few of the people have made or try to make a positive contribution. Most often when they disagree they resort to mean petty attacks. (Look at the thst number of posts under extraordinay aid.) They also post deliberately false information or recklessly post information without making any attempt to verify the accuracy of the posted information. You accuse me of trying to discredit the coalition. I never did that. I merely pointed out in a response to a post from a member of the coalition that there were funds available to organizations like the coalition that were not pursued. I was immediately attacked with posts that claim that the coalition was responsible for gaining a decrease in the density in the quarry. Such a claim is patently absurd and utter nonsense. In response to that outlandish claim I pointed out that there is a difference of opinion as to what the Coalition accomplished. I also pointed out my personal opinion that it was helpful to the Village in getting the density down and in getting a for sale product and not a rental project. The problem with the coalition is that they set an unrealistic goal of no development in the quarry and refused to provide any suggestions of alternatives. Even after the Village negotiated an Memorandum of Understanding the Coalition refused to work with the Village. More importantly when asked for imput as the Village was negoiating a final agreement the refused to give imput and told us to negoiate and bring it back for their review because they did not have one position. After a period of time they requested a seat at the table to participate in the negoiations while conceeding they did not have a group position. Eventually they tried to negoiate directly with Trammell Crowe and Pulte and then refused to meet with them if the Village was present. They also presented a list of demands that even they conceeded were unrealistic. In the end their tactics delayed and tied up the planning board for several months needlessly. More could have been accomplished if they had work with the Village I spent almost four years trying to get Beifus to demolish the buildings on the site. Why it happened when it did I don't know. All I can tell you is that Mr Beifus has two speeds slow and very slow. He has made some changes in his team. His approvals are almost all in place and the Village is expecting a draft developers agreement which is now overdue. I know nothing about a fence at thee Art Center site other than I have been tod it is in place. Why it was put up when it was put up is beyond my knowledge. I do know that the thing the Village is waiting for is for New Jerse Transit to sign a deed conveying some additional property, easements and restrictive covenants to the Village. The holdup has been at legal on their side. Until we have the deed nothing more can happen. The agenda for the meeting on July 31st is for John Gross and I to explain how tax abatements and payment in lieu of tax agreements work and to answer any questions people may have on those topics. What the agenda is not is a debate on whether they are good or bad or whether people think any particular developer should receive one or not. John and I hope to help people understand the concepts using the LCOR abatement and agreement. I understand the meeting may have to be moved to another date because the Village Art Center Board is meeting that night but that is out of my control. There is no reason at have the meeting advertised according to the sunshine Law regulations because it is not a meeting of a body covered by the sunshine law. It is my understanding notice of the meeting will be given in a number of forums. While I tried to contribute on this board the fact remains the thanks I received was a demand that I be fired and to be referred as "just an errand boy sent by grocery clerks to collect his fees" But I should not complain shortly after Bill Calabrese's wife died he was accussed of taking payoffs. The fact remains as long as Dave Ross permits people to post while hiding behind screen names and makes no attempt to demand civility this forum will not be a forum for a serious discussion of issues. | ||
| Flt Citizen Username: Flt Post Number: 61 Registered: 3-2003 |
Actually, I've learned some things from Mr. Matthews and exactly zero from you, Deepthroat. On behalf of those who want to have voices from local government on line here, thanks for nothing. | ||
| woodstock Citizen Username: Woodstock Post Number: 252 Registered: 9-2002  |
DT, Lest you think you personally drove Mr. Matthews away, he was being attacked long before you posted under this pseudonym. And could you be more specific about the statue that you cited? I can only find a 40:11A, no 40:A11. Is there some particular section that you have an issue with, or the town's enforcement of? Waiting For The Electrician, Or Someone Like Him | ||
| woodstock Citizen Username: Woodstock Post Number: 253 Registered: 9-2002 |
I have no knowledge about CPSO except the flyers I received at various times throughout the past few years, but the other things Mr. Matthews says, particularly about these boards, don't seem that far off target. Also, I'm surprised you only gave him 24 hours, over a weekend, to respond. There are many people that only read the boards and their email during the week. Perhaps he was out of town, or had better things to do on a beautiful Saturday than deal with email and highly inflammable issues. Just because we're all junkies doesn't mean he is... Waiting For The Electrician, Or Someone Like Him | ||
| doublea Citizen Username: Doublea Post Number: 229 Registered: 3-2003 |
I think there are many legitimate issues that have been and could be discussed on these boards. I have previously stated that I don't think discssing personal or personnel issues is helpful. I did think that Mr. Matthews comment about "other funds" being available was gratuitous and it was legitimate to ask what "other funds" he was referring to. I did not know the answer when I asked and thought Mayhew's response was informative. Let's cut out the personal attacks and deal with the issues. | ||
| bets Citizen Username: Bets Post Number: 348 Registered: 6-2001 |
Woodstock, Some of the comments by Mr. Matthews may not be that far off target, but as he's employed by the village, they should all be bulls eyes. To say that he doesn't know why the building was demolished or why the fence surrounding the SOPAC site went up when these happened is a bit disingenuous, isn't it? I also take to task his continuous attacks against citizens and groups that are trying to defend this town against overdevelopment. "In the end their tactics delayed and tied up the planning board for several months needlessly. More could have been accomplished if they had work with the Village" I think this is exactly what CPSO wanted to do, and they were successful in downsizing that project and ensuring that at least some of the quarry would be preserved. The village has never shown an interest in either. I wouldn't question my 24-hour limit over the weekend, as I received Mr. Matthew's privateline after 11 p.m. on Friday night. Mr. Matthews is a lucky man to have such staunch defenders. Since I'm merely a citizen here in South Orange, it's obvious that "I can't handle the truth." | ||
| woodstock Citizen Username: Woodstock Post Number: 255 Registered: 9-2002 |
Agreed on all counts. This was to doublea's post. Somehow bets' post snuck in between  Waiting For The Electrician, Or Someone Like Him | ||
| woodstock Citizen Username: Woodstock Post Number: 256 Registered: 9-2002 |
Bets, I wouldn't call myself a "staunch defender" of Mr. Matthews. I've never met him, or any member of our town adminstration, except a couple of clerks, the town engineer, and the tax assessor. If he's wrong about something correct him. Point out facts, ask questions. But not in a shrill manner. In general, being abusive and not respecting someone's response makes the poster less credible in my view. That goes for Mr. Matthews as much as anyone else. As for the email, perhaps he responded to you and logged off the for weekend. That was quite a missive he sent. Maybe he was drained. I get the feeling that by giving him 24 hours over a Saturday, you reallly didn't want to have him respond, and wanted a reason to post his email and feel justified. All of the above is just my view of things. Obviously I could be wrong, or have incorrect information. Just like anyone else here. Waiting For The Electrician, Or Someone Like Him | ||
| peteglider Citizen Username: Peteglider Post Number: 172 Registered: 8-2002 |
Just to point out the relative non-functionality of this (and other online) forums I just counted (eyeballed -- no stats software involved - so I won't bet my paycheck on this) -- 39 posts, from 14 different posters since July 15. 2 posters each have more than 6 posts each, 5 posters have 3 posts each. So -- in reality you have maybe 6 or 7 people "involved." Kinda puts it in perspective, huh. (much ado about nothing) My opinion -- its not representative, not a cross section, and the tiniest representation of SO. I love online forums, find them helpful, thought provoking, entertaining -- but I'll say it again -- its not the real world and to make it mean more than it really is is a mistake. There are better places to "make a difference" (imo) Pete |
