| Author | Message | ||
     woodstock Citizen Username: Woodstock Post Number: 282 Registered: 9-2002  |
I wanted to start a new thread because the Extraordinary Aid thread was getting cluttered with a lot of other stuff. Last night Mr. Matthews and Mr. Gross gave an overview of the PILOT process in general, and Gaslight Commons in particular. Mr. Matthews gave a reasonably brief overview of the legal aspects and the history of the abatement legislation that covers PILOT agreements. Mr. Gross gave some specifics of the Gaslight Commons agreement, though not enough detail if you're a numbers person. I think the limitations were both the expected understanding of the "crowd" and any confidentiality agreements the town has with LCOR. I have to say, I was disappointed with the turnout. Excluding Mr. Gross, Mr.. Matthews and Mr. Calabrese (who hosted the event), and including myself, there were 10 residents there. I'm not sure if the two women sitting across from me were town employees, or there as residents as well. This has been a huge issue here. People have lambasted our Trustees, Mr. Gross, Mr. Matthews, and Mr. Calabrese over present and future abatements. Yet only 10 people showed up. I was a bit disappointed that Mr. Matthews started the discussion by saying that they would not discuss the politics of granting abatements, or whether they were good or bad for the town. But that wasn't unexpected. The entire presentation that Mr. Gross gave was a financial argument for providing abatements. I would have been happier if he had left off the last column of his spreadsheet that showed what our tax situation would have been had Gaslight Commons been built without an abatement. To me, it was a red herring. It was an admitted unrealistic situation, and I think only confused the issue a bit. Perhaps we could convince Mr. Gross to provide the spreadsheet electronically, so that we can play with the numbers ourselves? I was very impressed with the restraint of some of the questions. There was no name calling, no innuendo, just straightforward questions and reasonably straightforward answers. Does anyone else who was there have other thoughts? Waiting For The Electrician, Or Someone Like Him | ||
| peteglider Citizen Username: Peteglider Post Number: 203 Registered: 8-2002 |
thanks for the update. i had another longstanding commitment that could not be changed. more comments and impressions from others, please pete | ||
| mayhewdrive Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 335 Registered: 5-2001 |
I actually watched on TV briefly, but didn't have the patience to watch for long. The one thing I rememebered was the statement that the average household will pay $45,000 annually in taxes in 30 years, assuming 5% increases. Yikes!  I did notice that Edwin seemed a little less patronizing than he has in the past. John was quite patronizing & Bill looked like a deer caught in the headlights anytime a question was asked. | ||
| doublea Citizen Username: Doublea Post Number: 242 Registered: 3-2003 |
I was down the shore and it was my wife's birthday. Had it not been her birthday, I would have come up for the presentation. I hope that it is replayed on TV after Labor Day. Thank you Woodstock for attending and giving us your comments. | ||
| vermontgolfer Citizen Username: Vermontgolfer Post Number: 60 Registered: 12-2002 |
I would agree with woodstock that it was a disappointing turnout, particularly based on all the rancor that has been posted on this board. While I also agree that the "Development without PILOT" was unrealistic, it did point out the minimal tax differences, assuming that Mr. Gross' assumptions were correct. It was also re-inforced that Gaslight would not have been built without a PILOT and that is probably a true statement. I also believe it clarified some of the issues raised here about county taxes and school board taxes and the impact or lack thereof on them respecitively. The fact remains however, is that what most people really want to know is what happens to Beifus and ShopRite and will PILOTs be requested, probably, and granted there. I'm sure that meeting would not have ended in an hour and hopefully would be better attended. | ||
| woodstock Citizen Username: Woodstock Post Number: 283 Registered: 9-2002 |
vg, I almost asked Mr. Gross the question, "From the numbers it appears that we (the SO taxpayers) are better off with the abatement than we would have been without one. Why don't we force all new development into PILOT programs, then?"  I am happy they did what they did, but no one (including myself) asked where the number for the assessed value of Gaslight Commons came from in the thrid set of columns. Changing that number up or down changes things quite a bit. Waiting For The Electrician, Or Someone Like Him | ||
| scollins Citizen Username: Scollins Post Number: 36 Registered: 8-2001 |
Mr. Gross said that the assessed value would only be 15 million. I think this is wrong. Gaslight was a 35 million dollar project (according to the NR). 35 million times the assessed value to market value ratio of .714 (a guess of the rate was then) = 25 million. That would put the assessed value in line with what the book says. Mr. Gross' calculation knocked off 40% of the value. | ||
| woodstock Citizen Username: Woodstock Post Number: 284 Registered: 9-2002 |
Scollins, but even if the project cost $100 million, that has nothing to do with what the assessed value would be. According to the town, which I scarily believe more than the N-R, it was a ~$25 million project. That is what the abatement is based on (2% of "project costs"). I believe Mr. Gross simply took approximately 63% of $25 million to get the $15,400,700 number he used. I'm not sure what book you're talking about. Waiting For The Electrician, Or Someone Like Him | ||
| scollins Citizen Username: Scollins Post Number: 37 Registered: 8-2001 |
Go to Townhall and look in the taxbook that lists all the assessed properties. The average house is in there and has an assessed value of $207,000.00. This house would obviously sell for much more. Gaslight Commons is in there and listed at $25,000,000.00. Why would the average house be listed in that book at 62% of market value while Gaslifght Commons is listed in there at over market value? | ||
| vermontgolfer Citizen Username: Vermontgolfer Post Number: 61 Registered: 12-2002 |
Folks, Woodstock, I think you were correct in the first place, the third column calculation should just have been left off, because last night, and forever, the administration has said that the project wouldn't have happened without a PILOT, therefore until the 30 years is up, it frankly makes no difference. Any by the way with the tax estimate for 30 years at $48,000 for an average house in SO, I think we all better start buying some lottery tickets.  | ||
| woodstock Citizen Username: Woodstock Post Number: 285 Registered: 9-2002 |
scollins, I don't believe that Gaslight Commons has been assessed yet. And it's definitely not part of the tax rolls. So any number in the book should, IMO, be taken with a grain of salt. But that would be a good question for Mr. Gross. I'll email him and ask. Waiting For The Electrician, Or Someone Like Him | ||
| woodstock Citizen Username: Woodstock Post Number: 286 Registered: 9-2002 |
vg, That was me in the back row that snorted when Mr. Gross said that about our taxes in 30 years. But then again, if you'd told me even 10 years ago that I'd be paying $22k in property taxes, I'd have laughed then, too. Waiting For The Electrician, Or Someone Like Him | ||
| vermontgolfer Citizen Username: Vermontgolfer Post Number: 62 Registered: 12-2002 |
woodstock, My heart stopped beating for a few seconds, until I realized I'll probably be gone in 30 years anyway, so the kids will have to deal with it. I think it's cocktail time, so therefore, I'm going to stop worrying about taxes for tonight.  | ||
| scollins Citizen Username: Scollins Post Number: 38 Registered: 8-2001 |
Actually it is part of the tax rolls. If you look at the book there are two entries for that lot and block. One is for the land which they still pay taxes on regardless of what they put on top. The other is for improvements on which they do not pay taxes on. A non piloted property only has one entry in the book. Mr. Gross will probably say that the $25,000,000 is not a real number. But it is there in the book and it is there for a reason. | ||
| woodstock Citizen Username: Woodstock Post Number: 287 Registered: 9-2002 |
scollins, then what reason is it there for? Yes, the land is part of the tax rolls, but that amount is trivial. What purpose do you think it serves having the building listed it there? Since trhey're not apying taxes on it now, the higher the assessed value, the better we're all off when it comes off the abatement. But that won't be for 30 years. So it will sit in the book, and not mean anything to our taxes until that point. Actually, that's not quite true. When the abatement goes into phase 2 (then 3,4, and 5), the higher the assessed value, the higher the payment LCOR will have to make. So again, a higher assessed value does not hurt the taxpayers. Waiting For The Electrician, Or Someone Like Him | ||
| Washashore Citizen Username: Washashore Post Number: 56 Registered: 4-2003 |
Perhaps the reason only 10 residents attended the Informational had everything to do with timing. I, for one, had the July 31 date in my date book for weeks in anticipation of attending. I could not attend on Aug 7th however, because of vacation plans previously scheduled, out-of-state. I know of at least three other people who were close watchers and participants of this debate who would have attended in July, but were on vacation on Aug. 7th. Those of us active in this PILOT thread in MOL sought a June date for the meeting, precisely because July and August vacations would eat into attendance. Although an Informational was first requested by residents in mid-May for June 15th or thereabouts, Mr. Gross and Mr. Matthews, with their very busy schedules, offered July 31 as their first available date. This date then got moved a week, to August 7th, because of Mr. Gross' multi-tasking: he had to attend the SOPAC Board meeting July 31 as its Executive Director. I appreciate the comments here of those who did attend. Going forward from here, what ideas do people have for insuring resident knowledge and involvement, as the Beifus and Supermarket sites come before the Town for tax abatement consideration and decision? | ||
| Jeff Alexander Citizen Username: Jalexander Post Number: 30 Registered: 5-2003 |
I didn't attend because I had no idea when the meeting was to be held.. It should have been better publicized. I didn't even know about it until I glanced at my News Record the day after and saw that it said "Meeting Tonight" How did those 10 people find out about it? | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 547 Registered: 4-2002 |
Jeff: I will see if I can find out from Cablevision when they plan to air the meeting on TV (ch. 19). It was posted on MOL several times and on the village web-page as well as the weekly calendar page in the News-Record. | ||
| doublea Citizen Username: Doublea Post Number: 243 Registered: 3-2003 |
My guess is that there were probably two main reasons that explain why the turnout was not large. First of all, there was the scheduling problem and then the rescheduling, with people who would have otherwise attended being on vacation. The second reason is that most likely most people who have any interest in the subject probably are either posters or viewers of this board. With apologies to Dave, that is probably a small group in comparison to the total S.O. population. As has been mentioned by other posters in the past, there is a lot of non-involvement on the part of S.O. residents on Village financial matters and tax matters. For some reason, it seems that Maplewood residents get much more involved in asking questions related to financial and tax matters. I'm sure there is some explantion, but I really don't know what it is. Shifting gears somewhat, perhaps the larger question is how a five story building on the Beifus site was approved in the first place. This question is rhetorical, but I think is valid. All you have to do is take a look down the road in Millburn where the new PNC building replaced the Marsh building, and see a building which is an asset to the community, which doesn't require much in the way of municipal services. | ||
| Jeff Alexander Citizen Username: Jalexander Post Number: 32 Registered: 5-2003 |
I think a simple one line subject on a new topic would have attracted some attention here - at least it would have grabbed mine.. Would it be possible to get a tape of the meeting? I don't have cablevision |
