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mayhewdrive
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 390
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 11:41 am: | 
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IMO= "In My Opinion". Sometime also "IMHO" = "in my humble opinion" (though rarely used on MOL, since humility is rarely expressed) 
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Washashore
Citizen
Username: Washashore
Post Number: 71
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 12:05 pm: |
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Mayhewdrive:
Thanks! |
doublea
Citizen
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 295
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 12:09 pm: |
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Thank you Mark and Allan for your responses. |
HGB
Citizen
Username: Hgb
Post Number: 24
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 1:29 pm: |
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I fully support cutting the budget by 15-20% to prevent these crazy proposed tax increases. As I read this board, there appears to be some reluctance to cutting programs. I do not understand why. A property tax increase of that amount should not even be considered. The well has run dry and BOT should realize that the citizens of this town are mad. Based on an informal survey of my friends, if the BOT raises taxes 20% next year, a large number of us will be moving to Morris or Union county. |
SoOrLady
Citizen
Username: Soorlady
Post Number: 26
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 2:43 pm: |
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HGB - As evidenced in Maplewood, that's not much of a threat. Quite a few of my friends moved when their taxes were raised - one was to pay $18,000. All their homes sold above the asking price and were purchased by young families who were anxious to live near the mid-town direct. I guess some people feel that the convenience is worth an astronomical tax bill. |
growler
Citizen
Username: Growler
Post Number: 235
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 3:24 pm: |
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Count us in that group looking to move out. Being taxed out of our house was NOT what we had expected however the way things are looking it's either that or I get a third job, my wife gets a second and our 1 yo get a job too. Of course if Ebay had not outlawed selling Kidneys I would not have to worry.  |
woodstock
Citizen
Username: Woodstock
Post Number: 330
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 3:52 pm: |
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Mahyew - here's it's more like IMNSHO (not so), myself often included.
Growler - You might want to see what impact your taxes have on your ability to sell your house. It seems like there's a line above which realtors won't even show the house.
Mssrs. Rosner, Rosen, Joyce - Am I to understand that next year my taxes of over $22,000 are expect to go up by 20-22%, meaning my taxes will be around $27,000?!? I have no doubt whatsoever that my house will be completely unsellable with those taxes. At least, not for any reasonable amount. I was already unable to sell my house for its valuation (not assessed value) according to the town. This is truly insane. How will any commercial development survive if people cannot afford to patronize the new businesses?
Does anyone know who I have to sue to get the town to do a reval, and at least make the tax burden fair (if not realistic) by lowering my assessment? I know I can speak for just about everyone on my block, as well as a half-dozen other families in town, when I say that we are paying an inordinate share of the town's obligations for local, county, and school taxes. My house is not worth anywhere near a million dollars, yet several homes in my neighborhood have sold for a million or more, with lower (sometimes MUCH lower) taxes than mine. In fact, the lower taxes are a significant factor in the ability of the seller to get that much for the house. How can a serious assessment be made when the assessment itself has a such a significant direct iumpact on the true value of a home?
Waiting For The Electrician, Or Someone Like Him
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mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 613
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 4:14 pm: |
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Woodstock: The 15 - 22% being discussed is for the municipal portion (about 25% of the tax bill). The schools and the county which make up almost 75% have their own budgets and each has their own increase.
No matter what portion though 15% is too high and the BOT will have to make some cuts.
As for a reval, I am not sure whom you would have to sue, but if you are serious, send me a privateline email and let me know and I will get you the information/person to contact.
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doublea
Citizen
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 296
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 4:35 pm: |
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What Woodstock says about the need for a revalution is correct. There are just too many disparities like the houses that have been sold recently for over $1million, and which are assessed at values less than houses which might be sold for much less. |
Allan J Rosen
Citizen
Username: Allanrosen
Post Number: 12
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 4:48 pm: |
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Woodstock: There will NOT be a 20%+ tax increase next year. Some services will have to be cut. |
Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 5169
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 4:48 pm: |
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Revals sometimes don't turn out the way you think they will. |
doublea
Citizen
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 297
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 4:56 pm: |
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Dave: I've already told the BOT that if my assessment after a revalution results in my taxes being higher than they would have been without a reval, so be it. At least I will be assessed on the same basis as comparable houses. Right now I don't think I am. |
doublea
Citizen
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 298
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 5:08 pm: |
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Dave: At the risk of angering probably everyone in town except Woodstock and maybe some of his neighbors, my guess is that the people who would be the most vocal against a revaluation are the some people who every year lobby to have the special questions on the school budget approved. Let's all share the pain equally. |
woodstock
Citizen
Username: Woodstock
Post Number: 331
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 5:09 pm: |
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Mssrs. Rosen & Rosner,
Thank you for the clarification on the tax increase. I'm glad to know that I won't have to pay more than my mortgage in taxes.
Dave,
While a reval might not lower my taxes, it will at least allow me to feel that I am paying a reasonable portion of the obligations of the town. As it is, I am confident that I pay more than my fair share. That is because my house is not assessed in ths same way other hosues are assessed. Apparently a new home is worth more than an old home, even if the market values of the houses are the same. And apparently, comparables are useful to fight an assessment everywhere in the country but here.
If my tax bill does not go down, I will be very excited to know that our town is flush with cash from the increased revenue. Pehaps we could re-pave all the streets in celebration?
Waiting For The Electrician, Or Someone Like Him
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mayhewdrive
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 391
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 5:27 pm: |
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Allan,
Can you also definitely state "There will NOT be a 10%+ tax increase next year"? |
Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 5170
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 5:35 pm: |
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Woodstock,
Why wait for a reval? Why not appeal your assessment? |
Washashore
Citizen
Username: Washashore
Post Number: 72
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 6:22 pm: |
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Re: the possible 20% municipal tax increase in '05. Please remember that the increase in taxes isn't based on programmatic need. It's because over the last several years, the BOT as a whole (not every BOT, and not any one all the time) has over-bonded, over spent, over-given-raises and perks to its Adminsitrator/CFO/Treasurer and Attorney,while the Village Administrator apparently has under-funded, mismanaged, and misrepresented income and outgo.
There's a big difference between the NEED to raise taxes to meet legitimate expenses, and when those taxes have to be raised because of the aforementioned overbonding, misrepresentation, etc. |
Jeff Alexander
Citizen
Username: Jalexander
Post Number: 34
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 8:11 am: |
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When was the last time the town did a reval and how often is a reval supposed to happen?
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woodstock
Citizen
Username: Woodstock
Post Number: 332
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 9:29 am: |
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Dave,
We spoke with the town assessor (a couple of years ago) and we were told that our assessment would not be changed. A neighbor brought the town to court (on his own), and lost. That does not mean our taxes are fair, it just means he lost his case. The judge agreed with him on almost every point, but for some reason (which I was not able to extract from my neighbor) ruled against him.
If everyone who was paying an unfair share of the town's obligations appealed their taxes and won, something would have to be done to make up for the shortfall - ether budget cuts or higher taxes for all. A reval would preempt this, and spread the tax burden fairly. As it is, there is a huge pool of untapped property value in Montrose and other revitalized areas of town. As I said, even in my own nighborhood, a house three blocks from me sold for at least twice what I could sell mine for, and the taxes on it were at least 10% lower than mine.
This is stuff we've rehashed several times over the past couple of years. If we continue this discussion (again), maybe it should be in a thread that is not about SHU...
Obligatory SHU/tax question: Has there been any study that shows that Seton Hall specifically has a positive impact on South Orange, or is the evidence only related to how other schools have had impacts on other towns?
Waiting For The Electrician, Or Someone Like Him
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CageyD
Citizen
Username: Cageyd
Post Number: 8
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 10:16 am: |
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In light of the crisis tax situation which seems - by reading this thread anyway - to be the result of mismangement on the part of our elected officials, and looking ant the poorly managed redevelopment efforts (which are an embarassment) can South Orange conduct a recall? All joking aside, no one in town I've talked to is happy with the performance of the current administration and is scared that they will manage this town into the trash heap. . Is their a provision to remove people from office via a recall vote? |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 614
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 11:15 am: |
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Jeff: The last reval was in 1991. Based on the past history of many towns it would seem that revals take place every 20 years or so. Most towns wait until forced by the state to do one.
I think technically they should be done every couple of years. There is a large expense to doing a reval. I would bet if we held a vote on whether to do a reval it would be lose by a large margin.
As woodstock points out there are some who are paying more than they should, and some who are paying less as well as some who would wind up with a similar bill. Most people would not want to risk getting a larger tax bill especially in light of the large increases in property values.
The whole property tax system is moronic and is killing the smaller towns that do not have a large commercial base. Everyone in Trenton is aware of the problem but the larger towns in this state control the votes and they do not want to see the system change because it will have a negative impact on them.
The analogy was made in another thread ages ago that the system is similar to Major league baseball and we need to implement revenue sharing.
CageyD: There are elections for half the board every two years. That should be an effective way to implement changes in the current government (if desired by a majority). |
bets
Citizen
Username: Bets
Post Number: 382
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 11:11 am: |
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I heard that Ms. Theroux addressed the issue of her personal of Mr. Gross's municipal SUV at the meeting Monday night. Though I can assure you she did indeed use this vehicle, as I personally witnessed it, I feel it may not be much of an issue anymore. I know she's reading this, and I'm pretty sure she won't be driving around in the municipal gas guzzler again any time soon. Thanks, SM! |
mrosner
Citizen
Username: Mrosner
Post Number: 618
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 1:26 pm: |
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Bets: A few comments regarding the car issue. First, in case you don't know, Ms. Theroux happens to have the same type of car that Mr. Gross has although they are different colors. Ms. Theroux did state that she did not use any SUV but her own and was setting the record straight.
Second, I have never been in favor of employees having village owned cars. If it is decided by the board that an employee should have a car I have felt that it would makes more sense to give a car allowance.
It has been argued that some of the employees have had occasion when they must make emergency trips to the village outside normal hours and my feeling is they can drive their own car and submit a bill for mileage/gas/tolls for maximum allowance (IRS regs). |
J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 412
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 3:15 pm: |
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Mark,
You are absolutely right about a car allowance substituting for a Village vehicle. I cannot imagine what, in the present economic circumstances, necessitates the provision of official vehicles.
If an officer of the town needed to travel on Village business, and if his or her destination could not be arrived at expeditiously via train or other public transport, even if he didn't wish to use his own vehicle, a request could always be entertained for a fuel-efficient rental. A sedan or station wagon should be more than adequate in most cases. (There's an Enterprise right on Valley; the staff there is quite pleasant and efficient.)
At the meeting the other night, some trustees mentioned the importance of cutting "fat" out of the budget, and others insisted there is none.
Village-owned cars certainly look like lard. |
nwyave
Citizen
Username: Mesh
Post Number: 102
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 4:24 pm: |
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So how does it get changed to an allowance basis vs. village owned cars? Is that on the table now? |
Allan J Rosen
Citizen
Username: Allanrosen
Post Number: 13
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 4:43 pm: |
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There is a Finance Committee meeting scheduled for Wednesday, Oct 1, at 8:30 AM. We can suggest that the policy be reviewed ona prospective (not retroactive)basis. The next Public Safety meeting will be Monday, Seot. 29 at approximately 9 PM (right after completion of the Legal Committee meeting. |
peteglider
Citizen
Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 233
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 10:41 pm: |
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I'm going to weigh in on the car issue. I get a car allowance. No problem -- until I have an accident, my car is vandalized, or stolen. In which case I, not my employer, need to deal with the issue.
If an employee legitmately needs a car for work -- then why not provide them with one?
OR -- if the car is considered part of an individual's total compensation package (regardless of need) -- that's fine too -- let's just be upfront about it. |
J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 413
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 12:24 am: |
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Thank you, Mr. Rosen, for posting the dates and times of the upcoming Finance and Public safety committee meetings.
Finance's timing is not ideal, but perhaps those who can make an 8:30 am meeting will attend.
Just so all of you know, when I asked Mr. Steglitz publicly at the Village meeting last Monday night if he would please post the date of his Finance meeting here on MOL, he more or less exploded in his seat, snarling that SO has its own website and that he doesn't read MOL. He then muttered something about publishing the meeting date in the News Record.
Naturally, I am more inclined to think well of public officials who take the time to communicate openly with their constituents and make themselves as accessible as possible, rather than engaging in petulant attempts to channel discourse in directions that serve their own purposes better than they serve the citizenry.
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bets
Citizen
Username: Bets
Post Number: 384
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 12:25 am: |
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Peteglider,
One question: what need could a small-town-America business administrator have for a taxpayer-provided SUV? He's not responsible for home inspections or public works inspections or public safety calls. South Orange is approximately one square mile - if out of town engagements arise and John is unwilling to use his personal vehicle, there is always the option of renting. |
J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 414
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 12:29 am: |
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"I get a car allowance. No problem -- until I have an accident, my car is vandalized, or stolen. In which case I, not my employer, need to deal with the issue."
Oh, yes, I forgot: the Village probably pays for insuring its vehicles, too, at a time when insurance costs are elevating.
What exactly do Village employees need these vehicles for?
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J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 415
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 12:35 am: |
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Cross-post with Bets.
I have nothing against John Gross or Mary Theroux and will not sign on to bashing them for trips to the store and whatnot. But I suspect there are less costly ways to remunerate town personnel than by providing them expensive cars.
The same goes for school district personnel.
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Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 5187
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 12:38 am: |
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It's a little known fact that making people explode in their seats was a function built into MOL years ago. We're glad to see it's still working well. However, we cannot explain the snarling. That must be a learned behavior. |
peteglider
Citizen
Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 236
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 11:02 am: |
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IMO -- obsessing about a car for an official isn't productive while understanding whether the total compensation package fits against responsibilites and ultimately performance makes sense to me.
*IF* a car is needed -- then we should compensate them or provide one for use.
*IF* a car is not needed to perform the job -- then its still ok -- as long as its considered part of compensation.
When a person joins an organization -- comp is negotiated -- salary, vacation time, paid benefits, cell phone/pager, computer at home, memberships & subsciptions, health benefits, car, etc. To me, I really dont' care if a car is preferred to more cash. Or if more vacation is preferred to less cash (FOR INSTANCE).
To me its the total $$ value that matters.
That said -- in my previous company, when things were tight -- all managers took a pay cut. We did it to save jobs and b/c, quite frankly, we were the ones responsible.
As part of the budget process -- the BOT should consider this approach as well! I don't know what (legal) latitude there is for this in the village, of course.
But I think a pay cut would send the right message -- to the village admin and to the people of the village as well.
Pete |
vermontgolfer
Citizen
Username: Vermontgolfer
Post Number: 80
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 11:42 am: |
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peteglider,
Not a bad idea about the pay cut, however I believe there is a contract involved and I will assume the employee would have to agree to the cut.
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growler
Citizen
Username: Growler
Post Number: 237
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 1:06 pm: |
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I think a reality check is needed here. One car allowence is not even going to make a dent in the problem at hand. Like a grain of sand in the ocean. I have perks at my job too. It's part of the package and it could be his too.
I like the pay cut idea. And the rezoning of SHU is awesome. I'm sure that we can all come up with ideas that we can post here as a brainstroming session to help our elected leaders. |
Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 164
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 2:07 pm: |
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Does SHU Law School pay taxes to Newark? |
Walker
Citizen
Username: Fester
Post Number: 6
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 2:33 pm: |
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A few questions that I think should be asked.
1)What is the total accessed Tax value of both South Orange & Maplewood?
2)What is the total amount that each town charges its property owners in property taxes each year?
3)How is this amount divided up between the state, town & school system by percentage?
At least then we know who gets what, the reason Maplewood is included in this is because of the shared school system.
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vermontgolfer
Citizen
Username: Vermontgolfer
Post Number: 82
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 3:12 pm: |
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Walker,
I think I have some of this information from the PILOT presentation of last month. If I can dig it up I'll post it.
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Walker
Citizen
Username: Fester
Post Number: 7
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 3:17 pm: |
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Thanks |
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