| Author |
Message |
    
ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 1455
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 2:14 pm: |     |
alg- I think most anti-SUVers are anti the humongo Paul Bunyon-types like Suburban, Tahoe, Durango, Hummer, etc.
I am literally afraid for my life when I pass a Hummer on a local street, or even if one passes me on the highway. They are really too big for town driving.
and don't they look like they have terrible visibility? |
Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 5227
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 2:48 pm: | |
SUV ROLLOVER CRASH FACTS
10,657 passenger vehicles were involved in fatal rollover crashes. (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, or NHTSA)
Crashes in which a vehicle rolled over accounted for more than half of all single-vehicle crash deaths. (NHTSA)
Vehicle rollover crashes are especially serious because they so often result in head injuries. Head trauma is the most frequent type of fatal and nonfatal injury in rollovers. (NHTSA)
The rate of serious injury in passenger vehicle rollover crashes is 36 percent higher than in crashes where there is no rollover. (NHTSA)
The high fatality and injury rates are due, in part, to the high percentage of rollover crashes in which passengers are ejected from their vehicles. Ejections account for 63 percent of all fatalities in rollover crashes and often result in costly and debilitating head injuries. (NHTSA)
More than 90 percent of passenger vehicle rollover crashes are single-vehicle crashes, and 8,345 of the 10,142 occupant deaths occurred in single-vehicle rollover crashes. (NHTSA)
More than half, 56 percent, of single-vehicle crash deaths resulted from rollovers compared with only 11 percent of rollover deaths in all multiple-vehicle crashes. (Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, or IIHS)
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ml1
Citizen
Username: Ml1
Post Number: 1275
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 2:59 pm: | |
gee Dave,
now it seems like you're lecturing.
 |
Yossarian
Citizen
Username: Yossarian
Post Number: 19
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 3:07 pm: | |
Where does it say anything about SUV's in the rollover post above? Any car can rollover. The point to the post above, to my mind, is more about seat belts.
I own an SUV (my 3rd in the last 13 years) and love it. And I HATE Hummers. They are military vehicles and do not belong on the road. I also have a strong dislike for the humungo SUVs, but refuse to belittle anyone for driving one. |
AZ
Citizen
Username: Azaltsman
Post Number: 195
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 7:39 pm: | |
FFOF hit the nail on the head. Though I would never belittle anyone from owning a Hummer and any of the ones FFOF mentioned, I do believe that there is a point where an auto manufacturer can cross the line between untility and waste. Hummers are insane. The only places in North America where I would even concede that a Hummer is useful is somewhere in the middle Colorado. However, this is America and demand drives supply. As long as people are willing to pay for those behemoths the manufacturers will build and sell them. One thing to note about the Hummer: when the base prices for them were in the $75K-$100K range no one even thought about buying them. Once GM bough Hummer and lowered to price to the $50K range all of the sudden the gates fly open. |
Lizziecat
Citizen
Username: Lizziecat
Post Number: 40
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 8:19 pm: | |
Spouse and I have been driving SAABs since 1971. Currently own a 12 year old 900, which is pretty good in snow, but the new SAABs, i.e the 9-3 and the 9-5 aren't like the older ones. After getting stuck on our hill last winter in our 9-5, we turned it in when the lease ran out and leased a Nissan Murano--a so-called "crossover" vehicle. So far, so good. I love my old SAAB, but I won't get another unless they come out with 4-wheel drive. |
Phil
Citizen
Username: Barleyrooty
Post Number: 699
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 11:27 pm: | |
I've been really happy with our Acura MDX and I haven't skidded yet (2 years) but it doesn't feel like it holds the road as well as our Subaru (Legacy sedan) which is like super-glue on fly-paper. They're both AWD, and yes, the interior of the MDX is big without a massive exterior - one of the main reasons we chose it along with what we thought was a good level of moderate luxury for the price. I didn't really want an SUV either (it was the 5th or 6th car we looked at) but was the best fit for our needs and wants (and it gets the same mileage as a minivan - in fact I believe it IS a Honda Odyssey chassis.
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bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 3427
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 8:08 am: | |
The Hummer comes in two variations, one real and one phony.
The original military Hummer as seen in the Iraq War can be purchased in civilian trim for somewhere north of $100k. Great for those who want to relive our youthful escapades in Vietnam or Desert Storm. 
The HummerH2 is a wanna be, styled by GM to look like the real thing, but built on a modified Suburban frame. This appeals mostly to wealthy teenagers and those recently drafted in the early rounds by the NBA and NFL. There are now tons of wannabe suvs around built on car and minivan platforms. The H2 is the first suv built on a truck chassis that is sold primarily for style over substance. |
ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 1458
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 8:47 am: | |
and that definition of 'style' is..... |
blackcat
Citizen
Username: Blackcat
Post Number: 109
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 8:50 am: | |
Last winter we were in the Austrian Alps and were very pleased to see that in the parking lot of one of the highest peaks in the area for skiing there were only a few SUVs. If they don't need them in the Alps...why do we need them here?
Just an American thang I guess. |
Ignatius J
Citizen
Username: Ignatius_j
Post Number: 43
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 8:54 am: | |
I would get the one that averages 30% more carbon monoxide and hydrocarbons emitted into the air and 75% more nitrogen oxides and 33% less fuel efficiency than cars and that has lead to the wasting of more than 70 billion gallons of gasoline since 1990 and has an occupant death rate 7 percent higher than cars. You know, the one where more than one thousand additional deaths were reported than in car-car crashes, despite the fact that there are more than three times as many cars on the road and that car-car accidents are much more common.
Oh wait... that's all of them... |
Ignatius J
Citizen
Username: Ignatius_j
Post Number: 44
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 9:05 am: | |
--This appeals mostly to wealthy teenagers--
Oh great, that's just what we need. Inexperienced teenage drivers tooling around town in monstrous ten ton vehicles. Soon, it's not just going to be the wealthy ones because in a few years there will be a ton of second hand SUV's priced to sell to first time drivers...Scary. |
ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 1459
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 9:20 am: | |
Makes me look back dreamily to the gas crisis of the early 70's.... |
ashear
Citizen
Username: Ashear
Post Number: 699
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 1:11 pm: | |
My itty bitty Saturn with front wheel drive and snow tires handled the snow last year (and our Surbaru outback rolled over it like it was not even there). Its the snow tires that are key if you don't have 4WD. (Which I think I purchased on the long ago suggestion of BobK) |
TomR
Citizen
Username: Tomr
Post Number: 55
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 2:02 pm: | |
AZ,
Regarding the three SUV's you're considering (for whatever reasons) you might want to check the April issue of Consumer Reports.
For my own purchases (two in seventeen years) I compare the reviews from CR and those from Car and Driver. If those two very differing viewpoints agree upon a vehicle, I figured I couldn't go very far wrong, and haven't thus far.
If you don't mind a recommendation, look at the Jeep Liberty. If its size is acceptable you should enjoy it. The spouse has one, and other than the fact that it handles like a truck (albeit a well behaved and nicely refined truck)its very good on the highway and about town; and a blast in the sand dunes. The only other SUV I've used that was as good on pavement was the Land Rover Range Rover.
If your primary concern is the snowy hills of Maplewood, get whatever you want: FWD,RWD or AWD. One is no better than the other in the hands of somebody who knows what they're doing.
Good luck & let us know what you decide to get.
TomR. |
algebra2
Citizen
Username: Algebra2
Post Number: 1258
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 6, 2003 - 5:32 pm: | |
good a place as any to ask ...
We're in the market for a SUV again. Anyone had any luck buying used? Shoshanna -- I like the Highlander and the price is right -- where did you get yours? Still like it? I want a small SUV. Manly, not girly. And it has to be cheap. |
OK, it's Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 669
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 6, 2003 - 6:04 pm: | |
I've always bought used vehicles. I've never seen the sense in buying new. Since most people prefer to buy new, it causes used prices to be low, which is good for me.
Sometimes, the required repairs are higher than expected, which is annoying, but in the end, I still saved money.
I've never bought a used SUV, but I would expect the experience to be the same as with used cars, since most people don't take their SUV's off road, which to say that they're probably not more abused than cars.
Tom Reingold
There is nothing
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algebra2
Citizen
Username: Algebra2
Post Number: 1260
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 7, 2003 - 10:15 am: | |
I am thinking of buying used and after going back and forth with my husband he is starting to feel the same way. If anyone has any suggestions about used car buying, we'd really appreciate it. We bought our last Jeep at the dealer on Springfield Ave but am not as confident in them as I am in Salerno Duane. What kind of things do I look for in buying used? We are looking for Jeep Cherokee Sport 1999, 2000, or 2001. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 3527
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 7, 2003 - 2:12 pm: | |
1. Low miles
2. "Certified" with 12 month warrenty included
3. Look underneath for hidden damage and accidents
4. Get Carfax report
5. check tires
6. If possible have your mechanic look it over
7. Buy best alarm system you can afford |
OK, it's Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 670
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 7, 2003 - 5:05 pm: | |
bobk, I've always been cynical about alarm systems, for car and home. Can you tell me what you think they're good for?
Tom Reingold
There is nothing
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bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 3532
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 8, 2003 - 5:22 am: | |
Tom, since a similar vehicle was stolen at Verjus over the weekend, this is kind of a joke.
That said, an alarm will not deter a professional car thief (or the repoman). Fortunately professionals are few and far between. The average joy rider will avoid the alarmed vehicle and look elsewhere.
There are exceptions and, as usual, I have a story. It was a dark and stormy night (as thousands of bad stories start ) when the car alarm went off sometime after midnight. The car owner staggered down stairs, out into the storm and reset the alarm and returned to his bed. The alarm went off again. The owner, deciding that the wind was rocking the car and setting off the alarm, turned it off. Next morning, no car. |
wnb
Citizen
Username: Wnb
Post Number: 54
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 8, 2003 - 8:32 am: | |
Suggestion about used car buying...
We just bought a used car from the NJ Auto Auction down in Jersey City(http://www.njstateauto.com/). It was so incredibly straightforward, none of the usual dealer BS "I have to go to the back room and run this offer by my manager, wish me luck, I'm pulling for you" crap. We cut an honest and straightforward face-to-face deal with a little good old fashioned back-n-forth marketplace haggling (we purchased the car before it went on the auctioning block). And, by the way, we got a great price, and didn't have to deal with any sleazy/cheezy used car salesmen, and we encountered no hidden fees or add-ons (there are some fees but they were all explained up front, BEFORE we haggled on a price).
That said, this is not necessarily for the faint of heart. If you need to be coddled and flattered by a salesperson this is not the place for you. If you require balloons and a giant American flag to be flying from your used-vehicle establishment, the place will disappoint. You have to have the confidence to purchase a vehicle as-is (warranty can be purchased separately) and you have to make a trip to the DMV yourself or pay a service for that ($65), and (and this is the biggest and) you do not have the ability to take 'er for a spin -- no test drive (keys are there so you can start the car etc). We still ended up about $2000 lower than virtually the exact same vehicle we saw at a dealer the week before. And at a final price of $5200, that $2000 save represents a significant cut.
These are bank-owned cars, the one we bought was a repo. Look at it this way, the used car you bought from the dealer probably came from this place the week before unless it was a trade-in.
One advantage (I consider it an advantage anyway) is that the warranty we bought (for $250 extra) does not require us to go back to a dealer's mechanic.
This isn't for everyone -- but people who like this sort of thing, will find this to be the sort of thing that they will like.
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bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 3534
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 8, 2003 - 9:25 am: | |
I have been on the periphery of the car business from time to time because of my work, a couple of friends in the business and just because I have always tried to get the best deal possible when buying a new ride, although I admit I have outsmarted myself a couple of times.
Most of the late model used cars (last three model years) are off lease vehicles, leased by either the manufacturers finance arm or one of the large banks. Most of these cars go to one of the national auction companies (Skyline on Route 46 being one) that have “reconditioning” operations. When the cars go up for auction the manufacturer’s dealers usually have first crack at them, before the auction is opened to the public or to used car dealers. Most of the better, low mileage vehicles end up on the lots of the dealers who sell that brand. No argument that you pay more this way, but in general you are going to get a better set of wheels.
Warranties are rip offs…unless you have to use them. The companies that underwrite warranties provide the dealer with software that shows the net premium they require for the coverage. The dealer gets to put any commission rate he wants, or thinks he can get away with, into the system. So when the F&I guy at a dealer is willing to show you the number on his computer screen, be wary, very wary. This is highly negotiable if you are skilled. However, since most of us aren’t all that skilled, this is one of the reasons that I tend to favor used cars where the warranty is included in the price, such as the VW “Gold” program.
Also, the warranty is only as solid as the insuer behind it. Most dealer warranties are underwritten by their in-house insurance company and are likely to respond two or three years down the line when you have a claim. Be wary of warranties underwritten by Risk Retention Groups (RRGs) especially those located in Hawaii. Warranties are their only business and some of the financial assumptions used in setting up these groups can be may not prove out in the long run.
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JGTierney
Citizen
Username: Jtg7448
Post Number: 47
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 8, 2003 - 9:35 am: | |
Personally I'm ani-SUV.
But - if you have your own business or are a professional - any car you buy over 6,000 lbs. is a tax deduction. Check the Internet for a list
of qualifying vehicles.
Thank our lovely Mr. Bush. Oh...and the deduction
is going to increase. MOre of an incentive to buy BIG. Me - if I got one, well, I'd probably have to redo my driveway to take the extra load |
newone
Citizen
Username: Newone
Post Number: 91
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 8, 2003 - 10:40 am: | |
I just bought my new 4Runner last week and it was the most painless experience ever. Got my financing through the web - Fed Ex'd the blank check to me, found the exact car I wanted through carsdirect.com - in and out of the dealer in under 40 minutes! No games at all - sign the papers, write the check and drive away.
A great web site to visit which also tells you about all the dealer scams is www.carbuyingtips.com Good luck with whatever you get. |
algebra2
Citizen
Username: Algebra2
Post Number: 1265
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 8, 2003 - 10:54 am: | |
Wow guys. Thanks for all this advice. I am printing it out. Don't worry JGTeirney -- I won't be buying a 6,000 pound SUV. |
sportsnut
Citizen
Username: Sportsnut
Post Number: 562
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 8, 2003 - 11:36 am: | |
I was recently in the market for a "new" used car and while doing my research the entire car auction/wholesaling market opened up for me. IMO, buying through an auction or a wholesaler is the way to go. And I believe that the wholesaler is required by NJ law to provide a limited warranty covering the transmission and engine (I have to go back and read the warranty). Again, the wholesaler who sold me my car said it was by law that this must be provided and I had to sign a copy of the limited warranty.
Do your homework, get a carfax report and if you have a day or two to work with try and find out where the car was originally purchased from.
The cost savings can be significant if you go this route. For example the car I purchased was delivered to its owner in January of 2002 (this came from the stamp in the owner's manual). The dealership was in Manhattan so I called them up and asked them for a service history. They faxed it to my office within an hour and I knew instantly what options the dealer installed, what work the previous owner had done and whether routine maintenance was done at that dealer. They blacked out the previous owner's information on their forms and sent it right over. I then did a carfax search to confirm that the car was leased in NY and sold at auction sometime in early 2003 (don't remember the exact date). There was no salvage title (meaning no severe accidents) and the title was issued to an individual not a company.
I found the car on Ebay of all places. The bidding did not reach the reserve price and so I contacted the seller directly and they informed me that they were a car wholesaler operating out of Hasbrouck Heights NJ and that if I was interested in the car I could come have a look.
I drove up there one Friday afternoon and the place was in a very industrial section near Teterboro airport. There were a few other wholesalers in the same area. My first impression was, "what did I get myself into?" There was a large warehouse with rows and rows of cars inside ranging from expensive late model cars to older smaller economy cars to trucks and buses. I spoke directly with the owner at first then with a salesman. The salesman told me that all they did was purchase cars at auction, bring them back do a quick check for obvious mechanical problems, clean them up a bit and put them up for sale. They were not interested in making lots of money on each car but rather volume and in fact this particular place sells over 100 cars a month. To make an already long post shorter the car I purchased was a 2002 911 with 14K miles on it. The original sticker (which is in my posession and confirmed by the original dealer) was over $80K. I priced similar cars at Paul Miller, Ray Catena, Princeton and Femington Porsche Audi and for a similarly equipped "certified" used one the prices ranged from 63,500 to 70K. Further highlighting the fact that it pays to buy used (first year depreciation of over 20%). I paid significanlty less than the lower price. The first offer I made was rejected and the owner looked me square in the eye and told me that he paid more at auction for the car and couldn't let it go for that price. To be honest it was 25K less than the original sticker but it was worth a try. I came up a little and they came down from their reserve price on the auction and we made the deal. (I used Peoplefirst.com for the second time and would recommend them. Their rates are very competitive and they are a breeze to deal with).
I could have purchased a warranty but did not since the car still had three years left on its original warranty. Something else to consider. Porsche doesn't necessarily have the greatest warranty but the cars you are looking at do. I believe the Jeep is something like 10 years so you shouldn't have to purchase an extended warranty.
If you'd like to go this route let me know and I'll give you the name of the dealer. But be prepared there are no whistles and bells. Just a big warehouse with a muddy parking lot. They will also look for a specific brand, make, color etc. if you tell them what you want.
Best of luck to you. |
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