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Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 230
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 8:47 am: | 
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I have a question for all computer folks out there. I’m Director of Operations for a software company (Supply Chain). Currently we are looking to hire a few Java/HTML programmers for “Entry” level positions. Unfortunately these people are asking for way to much money in my opinion. Seeing as how it’s a bad economy and most companies are outsourcing this type of work (We outsource most of it), what do you think is a reasonable salary.
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Guesswho
Citizen
Username: Guesswho
Post Number: 6
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 8:56 am: |
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If we Americans ask for too much, you can always outsource it to India or China! |
Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 231
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 9:00 am: |
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We outsource to Romania, but I do need some guys to put the products together, simple bugs, installations, and configuration. That type of work is really hard to Manage over seas.
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jgberkeley
Supporter
Username: Jgberkeley
Post Number: 3148
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 9:14 am: |
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Where?
NYC or NJ?
Makes a difference. |
Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 232
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 9:26 am: |
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Fairlawn NJ.
< 50 Employees
1-10 Mil sales per year |
Guesswho
Citizen
Username: Guesswho
Post Number: 8
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 9:29 am: |
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Guess you didn't get the sarcasm
Maybe a little higher salary will help relieve the "bad economy". Employ America First!!! |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 34
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 9:34 am: |
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If it's high end HTML, and NJ, you could probably pay $40-45K. Need to be really clear on what you're hiring for. As you know, Java and HTML are not the same thing. Most "real" programmers scoff at HTML, and they do it badly. People with web/graphics backgrounds do it really, really well and charge less. And, a piece of advice: look for older workers (over 40) who have been through the mill of late and will have better work habits/more gratitude. |
monster
Citizen
Username: Monster
Post Number: 45
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 10:28 am: |
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No more outsource
Hire America
Support our citizens
don't worry so much about the bottom line
money isn't everything, unless you're the displaced worker who has a hard time supporting his/her family.
America or bust |
Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 233
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 10:36 am: |
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Great idea. Hire workers for 5X what it would cost to outsource, then when it becomes to expensive to operate go bankrupt and everyone looses their job. |
Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 51
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 11:36 am: |
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I work with a company that has a few asp.net and java programmers. They range in salary from 12-15 dollars per hour. They are great, but they need a good manager that speaks their language. |
magmasystems
Citizen
Username: Magmasystems
Post Number: 141
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 12:13 pm: |
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> Seeing as how it’s a bad economy and most companies are outsourcing this type of work (We outsource most of it), what do you think is a reasonable salary.
You mean "how low can I pay an H1B visa worker living instead of my native-born US-college-trained worker who has been displaced by the collapse in IT spending?"
This is a sore point with a lot of IT workers who have seen their job disappear, not only because of the bad economy, but because of the rapid adoption of outsourcing of the entire IT industry to India.
> Unfortunately these people are asking for way to much money in my opinion.
How much do you expect a person who has been working in IT for years to ask for? This person usually has a degree (and an advanced one at that) from a US college, which he spent a lot of money in tuition for, to learn a professional skill that made the US a leader in the technology field and helped to fuel an economy and an increase in productivity in the 1980's and 1990's.
Now that this person has been displaced from his IT job (because of the outsourcing that you admit your company has done), and may coming to you because he sees on MOL that you are offering some of the very few IT jobs available out there, you want to see how low you can go monetarily to further rob him of his dignity.
Too much money? How can you be the judge of that, when a person has been out of work for months and has a family to support. This is not India, where you can live comfortably on $5000 per year.
All companies have to make a profit to stay in business. But does this mean turning your back on your fellow Americans to outsource a job (that was once a source of pride in America) to another country to save a few pennies.
This has been happening for years to the manufacturing sector. It has now hit the IT sector really hard. People are saying that Wall Street is now starting to outsource any jobs that have to do with number crunching, like accounting and analysis jobs.
My son goes to college in a few years. Do you think that I want him studying anything to do with computers or engineering when there are no job opportunities out there? Computer Science enrollment in colleges has been declining rapidly over the past few years and will continue to do so. A profession which the US was the avowed leader in is now a profession looked upon with scorn by many displaced workers. There was an article in the New York Times magazine section a few months ago about a formerly high-level executive in the "new economy" who is now making $10 an hour working at the Gap. I and many other parents do not want this fate to befall our children. So, we keep them away from the technical professions, the ones which can easily be outsourced to other countries by US companies looking to add a few pennies per share for their stockholders.
We need companies to start realizing what they are doing to the economy and the morale of the workers by sending jobs overseas.
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Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 234
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 1:13 pm: |
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Magma,
I understand you frustration with the hiring practices of the IT companies. Let me explain the situation a little bit.
First of all this is a new company, there were 0 jobs; we created 20 new positions that didn’t exist before. We are not taking existing jobs and sending them overseas. If we didn’t have the option of using an off shore company we would still only be able to support 10 new positions (Coders are more expensive then QA people), and the company would have a slim chance of survival. No offence but how many jobs did you create last year?
I wasn’t suggesting using H1B visa employees. I was asking about entry level positions, I’m not interested in dealing with immigration, and the savings isn’t all that big. I’m also not looking for someone who has been in the field for years. I need a capable programmer.
I don’t understand your reasoning when you suggested the compensation should be increased because a person has been out of work for months. I’m not offering back pay. I don’t care if there leaving a position or if they have been unemployed for 2 years.
The job market is flooded with employees that are looking for jobs, supply and demand would indicate that salaries are going to be lower. Maybe the guy who’s working in the Gap would consider a job in IT at a lower salary. I’m not trying to rob him of his dignity, I’m giving him an opportunity.
I’m also not trying to save a few pennies to put in shareholders pockets, we’ve only been in business for 6 months, we have a limited amount of money.
>“We need companies to start realizing what they are doing to the economy and the morale of the workers by sending jobs overseas.”
People need to realize these are difficult times for software companies, customers are not willing to spend the money they were 5 years ago. I’m doing what I can to succeed. I’m not running IBM and shipping thousands of jobs overseas, I run a small company that is operation in a difficulty economy.
My issue was that developers straight out of collage are asking for salaries that exceed 100G. In my opinion that is an excessive salary.
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magmasystems
Citizen
Username: Magmasystems
Post Number: 142
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 1:31 pm: |
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> My issue was that developers straight out of collage are asking for salaries that exceed 100G. In my opinion that is an excessive salary
Then certainly you have a right to question this salary request.
The way that the IT market is right now, an entry level developer is probably worth about 45-50K. But Java skills level differ, and as such, salaries will differ.
Do you want someone doing J2EE, Weblogic or Apache, Struts, etc? This kind of developer was making around $120-130K per year on Wall Street. Even kids out of college were getting high 90's without asking for it. And many colleges train kids in J2EE, so they might be used to asking for the same kinds of salaries that their Wall Street brethren were getting.
If you want someone to do simple Java applet programming, then the salary would be less, but do not expect that person to step up right away if the technical demands are higher.
Also, if you want to save some costs at the expense of employee loyalty (what is that nowadays), then consider a local consultant. You would save yourself the cost of providing benefits, and you may get someone at a reasonable cost for the short/medium term who would be at a higher level of skill than some of your younger applicants.
I have seen companies recently offer $10-20/hr for this skillset. This is certainly taking advantage of people. Remember that software developers have a skillset equivalent to engineers, accountants, and mathmeticians with the creativity of an architect or artist. Consider paying them what they are worth, without taking advantage of the fact that many of their jobs are being shipped overseas.
Plus, the money that they make will be funneled back into the economy, and maybe this will help our economy recover a bit faster.
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magmasystems
Citizen
Username: Magmasystems
Post Number: 143
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 1:33 pm: |
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> No offence but how many jobs did you create last year?
None, but when Magma Systems was a thriving software company, I employed 12 people. The company was bought out in 1995.
And I was just involved with a startup that got bought out, right before our first product was released. I did not personally employ anyone, but we were 4 people doing a lot of work for sweat equity.
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Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 235
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 1:37 pm: |
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So I’m guessing that you would not have jeopardized your startup by spending money that didn’t have. |
magmasystems
Citizen
Username: Magmasystems
Post Number: 144
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 2:00 pm: |
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> So I’m guessing that you would not have jeopardized your startup by spending money that didn’t have.
It depends on how you structure your financing. Depends on my line of credit, amount of self-financing, etc. This is a decision that every business makes. It may also mean that you work harder by doing stuff yourself, or have a salary vs equity agreement with some people. I deferred salary to equity in my last startup.
But I also know how difficult it is to keep track of resources that you have overseas. Whether I trust the infrastructure and security mechanisms set up in the other country. Whether the ability for me and my staff to communicate intelligibly with the people overseas impacts our delivery dates. Whether I can look my a member of my staff in the eye, ask him to explain a part of his/her design that I did not understand, have a one-on-one to discuss and improve design details, etc.
Cost is not the only factor in deciding whether to in or outsource. There is the human factor of building a loyal staff who is excited about your business and will work to see it grow.
My fear is that the entire IT industry is turning into "brain cattle", driven solely by economics.
I am sure that, an a member of the IT community, you are an avid reader of the website f*ckedcompany.com. It is depressing to read the daily reports of how many positions in the US are being lost to outsourcing.
So, Merrill Lynch, Bear Stearns, Amex,... can you stand to make 37 cents per share profit this quater instead of 43 cents? if so, take the 6 cents per share, which probably amounts to tens of millions of dollars, and hire back some of your IT people. I am sure thsat your investors will not punish the stock if you show that you are sacrificing some profit in order to improve on capital spending. |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 35
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 2:49 pm: |
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I begin to see some work coming back to the states, if only because of the managerial overhead and greater documentation required to hand off the work to India, etc. So, what looks like someone working for $10/hr is really a lot higher when one fully costs the project.
That said, what I see is firms choosing what they call "near shore" -- U.S., but not this ridiculously overpriced locale we live in. Good tech skills, more focus, lower price -- in the Dakotas or whatever. I do think the job market in our immediate area for routine kinds of tech will stay challenging. Why pay $100K to a citizen in NJ when you can pay $50K to one in Maryland or the Dakotas. |
Joan
Citizen
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 1965
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 4:28 pm: |
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If the work is basic and can be done part-time, consider filling some or all of these positions with student interns who are still in college. The cost should be less than for graduates with work experience. With the right employees, this could be a win-win for both groups. Rather than removing jobs from the industry, you would be giving local students a chance to hone their skills. You would also have the opportunity, work load and funding permitted, to snap up the best of the students as full-time employees when they graduate. |
Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 236
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 6:10 pm: |
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After the hire of two more programmers we do intend on getting an intern program up and running. Unfortunately there is a lot of documentation, reporting, and training involved in an intern program. I was hoping that one of the new hires would show potential as a Designer or Project Manager, and I would have them assist in managing the interns, eventually that person can help with managing the off shore programmers.
And once again I am not taking jobs from the IT sector, I am creating two new positions. I was just curious what people though an ENTRY LEVEL position should pay 40K,50K, 60K, 70K, 100K, 120K?
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Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 53
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 1, 2003 - 4:27 pm: |
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Like I said, I have several developers, none is being paid more than 40k a year, and most considerably less. This is in downtown NYC. Like I also said, you need a good manager that speaks their language. Not an easy feat when you have an Indian, a Pakistani, a Turk and a couple of Russians. All have green cards, no H1B's. All of these guys are experienced and are really great programmers, but there is only one that I would consider for management responsibility. They make between 24 and 30K a year andalways work more than a 40 hour week.
Their manager is excellent, I couldn't live without him, managing this bunch is like herding cats, but he makes it look easy. He makes a good amount more than 40K, and is worth twice what we pay him.
We looked at outsourcing, but unless you need LOTS of coders, it doesn't really pay. For us, the benefits will come when we need more than 50 simultaneous coders on a project.
By the way, a college grad with no experience looking for 100k is smoking crack!
Good luck. |
sac
Citizen
Username: Sac
Post Number: 736
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 1, 2003 - 4:44 pm: |
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Out of curiosity, if your manager is worth twice what you pay him, why don't you give him a raise? Is the market really that bad that he won't jump ship?
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Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 255
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 1, 2003 - 7:31 pm: |
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Unfortunately the market is to the point that these guys wouldn’t go to the trouble of trying to find a new job, they feel secure where there are and are willing to lay low for a bit until the market improves.
You’re only paying 40K downtown? That is the only reason were outsourcing we needed a huge effort in a short amount of time.
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woodstock
Citizen
Username: Woodstock
Post Number: 377
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 1, 2003 - 11:28 pm: |
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Brett,
You might want to look on some of the job sites and see what companies are offering. Dice.com is a possible good place to start. Same for Monster.com. You might try searching for a job that is similar to what you need programmers for, and see what they're offering. Then take into consideration location, benefits, etc. and you should have a decent idea of what you can reasonably expect to pay.
As Mark says above, you can also consider consultants if it's a short term project. Or possibly a contractor to full-time option, whereby you basically get to preview the folks you're considering hiring as contrators first.
Waiting For The Electrician, Or Someone Like Him
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NRL
Citizen
Username: Nrl
Post Number: 219
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 1, 2003 - 11:55 pm: |
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I must cut in and tell you all this is probably one of the most interesting threads I have read on MOL to date.
My 2 cents, for what its worth is; many larger companies are outsourcing because there is more pressure by investors to make a wider profit margin and sell for less due to fierce competition.
You can buy a PC for $500 out of the box these days. The only way for them to make money on a price point like this is through other means of cost cutting. Since labor is the most expensive line item on the budget guess where they look to cut first?
I work for an Information Management service company. We have taken on more outsourcing agreements in the past year than I have seen in 5. Why? Its the numbers game. Many of these companies would rather see 1 flat outsourcing cost line item and let us manage the employees and the M&A. It makes them look leaner on paper but its really just a shell game.
Waiting for the Springfield Ave renaissance, or something just like it.
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Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 53
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 2, 2003 - 9:44 am: |
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I kind of agree with NRL. The other angle is how employee fixed costs show on the bottom line v how variable costs (e.g. contractors) show. Lower fixed costs seems always to look better, regardless of the true cost. Tax effects and other high finance stuff I can't keep up with. |
Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 260
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 2, 2003 - 10:17 am: |
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The problem with one flat outsourcing fee is that it really bits you in the butt when cost cutting comes around. If the board wants to cut costs that’s where they start, leaving you with very little in-house talent to get the job done. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 3479
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, October 2, 2003 - 10:39 am: |
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I am still struggling with the concept of “Romanian Programmers” to be quite honest. While I haven’t checked recently, my recollection is that Romania is the poorest and most backward country in Europe. Ox carts are still a common mode of transportation.
I am well aware of outsourcing to Russia, India and even Israel and have been involved in some projects from the user side where a lot of the code was written in these countries because it made no sense to hire a hundred or so programmers for a “short term” project, but Romania?
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Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 261
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 2, 2003 - 11:02 am: |
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Romania is just starting to become an outsourcing country. A few weeks ago there was a show in NY, TechExpo, where a lot of outsourcing companies came to sell their services. Romania made a huge showing, the country attended as a whole instead of ten little booths. And they really attracted a lot of interest.
In my experience:
Russia – We are right and you are wrong, we’ll do it our way and you’ll like it.
India – pardon the pun “To many Indians and not enough chiefs”
Israel – Deadline? What deadline? There’s plenty of time.
As far as Romania being backwards, the address of the place we use is #### Bucharest Sector 4. weird. When I worked with a company in India there were plenty of Ox carts. There was also a sign in to hotel stating “Monkeys tend to be a problem in Bangalore, please keep windows locked”
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OK, it's Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 686
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 11:16 am: |
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The outsourcing stuff makes me sick and scared. My little bit of good news is that my company, which is a startup of about nine people, considered outsourcing and decided against it. One concern is the foreign countries' attitudes towards intellectual property. We feared that our stuff would be sold or given away. But really, it was about cost and control. We got high bids from the outsourcing companies and we realized we could do the job with fewer people, even though we'd pay them at a higher rate.
We've found some good programmers for about $50 or $60K per year, through monster.com
bobk, Rumania may be one of the most backward in Europe, but I believe Albania beats it.
Tom Reingold
There is nothing
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