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Message |
    
J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 690
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 11:21 am: | 
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Kathy (or anyone), please excuse my ignorance, but can you tell me whether the CCR publicly supports or endorses political candidates--e.g., to township committee, trustee, mayor, or school board appointments? |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 2207
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 1:54 pm: |
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Fringe,
I‘m really not sure what you’re asking of us, and I guess J.Crohn wants some clarification as well...
You began your comment by mentioning the CCR Trustees, and ended by asking about if any of us were asked to join this organization. I think of joining as usually more about just becoming a member of an organization, not about being on the Board of Director’s or Trustee’s. No, I was never asked to be a Trustee, and I’m not even sure if I’m a member of the CCR?
Last year I was asked to Chair the CCR Fund Raising Auction. I supported the first one they had, and felt honored and very much enjoyed working with them again. However, I don't particularly remember if I was asked to join anything... although maybe being asked to support the organization, you know, make a donation or something like that is considered joining? Truthfully, I'm not sure how you join, or what makes you a member. I really never gave it much thought.
Last year I was also asked to Chair the South Mountain YMCA Annual Golf Outing. Like the CCR, I wasn’t actively involved with them before. I agreed to do it and also made a monetary donation. I attended several meetings with Board members, but again I don't think that made me a member of anything. I never thought much about that either.
I suspect most of us try to help out others when we can, but I believe joining is something different. As I think about it, I’m a member of quite a few organizations, but most of those I have to pay dues, attend meetings and do what have you…
Anyway, if your point is that it doesn’t look good to have an organization with political activists all from the same party in power, receiving money from that same party, I would have to agree with you. However, I don’t think the motivation behind these donations are ill founded, but you’re right, it doesn’t look good.
Hey, it also wouldn’t look good coming out of a motel with your wife’s best friend saying you were just planning a surprise birthday party for her husband...
Allow me to drift a little. As a Republican, I can remember not long ago sitting down with government officials and an attorney. They were demanding certain things of me, saying I wasn’t doing anything wrong, but I needed to be concerned about the perception I was giving others. Meanwhile they were financially and otherwise supporting an opposing political party and point of view...
Yes, I’m afraid it’s all about perception... |
fringe
Citizen
Username: Fringe
Post Number: 228
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 7:58 am: |
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More simply stated -
If the CCR truly "promotes, encourages and celebrates this rich diversity - of opinion, ... political affiliation ..." as written in its fund-raising letter, how are such diverse opinions and political affiliations represented in its Trustee debates? If the leaders of the Maplewood Republican Party or the opposition group in South Orange are not there to present the views of a statistically significant part of the population, can those citizens rely on Kathy Flaxmann to stand up at a CCR meeting and say "I think that Art Christensen (and the 1400+ who voted for him)would be opposed to this resolution because..."? Would the impact be different if Art delivered the message himself?
JTL |
sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 10462
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 8:05 am: |
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Dearest Fringe,
I am truly sorry to tell you this but Art's little gem:
Hey, it also wouldn’t look good coming out of a motel with your wife’s best friend saying you were just planning a surprise birthday party for her husband...
is such a classic that I'm afraid it's going to have to become my new signature for a while. I hope you're not offended because I do love your website.
---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <-
Hey, it also wouldn’t look good coming out of a motel with your wife’s best friend saying you were just planning a surprise birthday party for her husband...- Arturo November '03
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kathy
Citizen
Username: Kathy
Post Number: 668
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2003 - 8:32 pm: |
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Fringe, CCR trustees are not chosen for their political affiliations. For the most part they are chosen from among the couple of hundred residents who have volunteered on CCR committees. If that group is tilted in one political direction, maybe the other side should just start to pitch in.
The mission of the CCR is to promote integration as an ideal. Although we may believe that diversity of thought (including political thought) is a good thing, that does not mean that it makes sense to elect as trustees people who think that our given mission is a waste of time and money. Agreeing with the misson of the organization is the major qualifying criterion for being considered as a trustee. On the other hand, I'm sure that party affiliation does not disqualify anyone. Art, for example, strikes me as a great candidate for CCR trustee. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 3912
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 4:33 am: |
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Kathy brings up an interesting subject and a question; Just how are Board Members chosen?
Are they elected by the membership or "tapped", much like Skull and Bones, by the current board?
Is the organization democratic, or is it a self-perpetuating oligarchy with the current board making the nominations?
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tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 1553
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 9:46 am: |
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quote:Just how are Board Members chosen?
Are they elected by the membership or "tapped", much like Skull and Bones, by the current board?
Any Board I've ever seen, and I've been on a few at a similar level, is "tapped" then rubber-stamped by the membership. It may be insular, but it's nothing insidious or unique to CCR. |
kathy
Citizen
Username: Kathy
Post Number: 670
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 12:10 pm: |
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Non-profit organizations are of two kinds: membership and not. In the first case, the membership elects the board. In the second case, the board itself elects new board members. The second type is probably more common, as Tom notes. The CCR is of the latter type. There are no "members" per se. There are no dues.
I will reiterate that valuing diversity of opinion in the community at large does not require drafting naysayers into any particular organization. If I know someone who thinks that zoning laws constitute theft of private property, I might consider that an interesting position and worthy of a philosophical discussion, but I wouldn't appoint him to the Planning Board. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 3923
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 4:39 am: |
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Kathy, thank you. Is it true that a number of board members have either been asked to resign, resigned or are going to resign since they don't toe the "party line".
I agree that you probably don't want to have George Wallace on the board. However, I am not sure that you want Louis Farrakan either.  |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 2214
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 10:55 am: |
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“Art, for example, strikes me as a great candidate for CCR trustee.”
Thank you Kathy, that was a nice thing to say. Over the years, I’ve been involved in a number of different state and national trade associations. As Board members, we were nominated and voted for by the general membership at an annual convention. Members of these organizations pay for membership, and are looking for a return on investment. As can be expected, these Boards wheel some level of influence, and elections can become quite politically charged.
If as you say, the CCR Board elects its own Board Members from within, then I believe your analogy referring to the Planning Board would be accurate. This thread is about “the CCR soliciting donations to continue its critical work that "promotes, encourages and celebrates this rich diversity - of opinion, lifestyle, culture, race, religion, political affiliation, [and] artistic inclination."”
When so much is at stake, I think it’s inevitable that some people outside this closed group of local activists are likely to question what value the group really places on diversity of opinion… especially when such important issues as lifestyle, culture, race, religion, political affiliation, [and] artistic inclination."” are being considered.
I have to agree that this issue is worthy of a philosophical discussion, but to what avail? It is what it is… and what it is I’m afraid, is all about the perception they bring to the public... |
kathy
Citizen
Username: Kathy
Post Number: 672
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 7:02 pm: |
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BobK, Some current CCR trustees may be resigning, or may even have been asked to resign, but in most cases it is about failure to attend meetings, not about toeing the "party line". I think that Fringe would find most of them just as liberal as the trustees who remain.
I can think of one case in which a CCR trustee came out very publicly in opposition to a position that the CCR had voted to adopt; he was asked not to do that, but insisted that as a private citizen he had the right to say whatever he wanted. So it is possible that he has decided, or been asked, to become a private citizen as opposed to a CCR trustee--but I don't know that for sure. |
Redsox
Citizen
Username: Redsox
Post Number: 370
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 9:51 pm: |
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"it's the midtown direct, stupid" |
DrFalomar
Citizen
Username: Drfalomar
Post Number: 93
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 7:53 am: |
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With the CCR giving money to Profeta and his candidates, should the town no longer give money to the CCR? Otherwise, Profeta and his people would essentially be voting for money to be put in their own pockets. |
SO/M Community Coalition
Citizen
Username: Coalition
Post Number: 87
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 8:10 am: |
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The Community Coalition does not make any political contributions, nor does it endorse any candidates for office. Individual trustees and committee members may make donations and may work for candidates -- that is their right.
The Coalition is incorporated as a 501(c)(3) non membership organization.
Our organization is audited annually - that audit is provided to the two towns and made public.
No trustee has been asked to resign for any disagreement with any Coalition position. Trustees are elected for three-year terms. At the end of the term, there is a discussion with them as to whether or not they wish to stand for re-election. If they say yes, their name is submitted to the nominating committee -- along with any other names submitted by trustees or committee members. Rarely, trustees have left mid-term -- generally due to personal time conflicts.
Committee membership is open to any resident wishing to serve who can see themselves working constructively toward the objectives set by that committee. Everyone in the community should consider themselves "asked" to join -- the last issue of the Coalition newsletter -- online at www.twotowns.org -- highlights activities of several of our committees and issues an open invitation.
Political party affiliation is not collected. Diversity of views is apparent among committee membership - which is far broader than the short list of trustees and staff posted elsewhere on this site.
Trustees are generally nominated from committee membership. Thus, committee and trustee positions are open to anyone.
Trustee meetings are generally held on the fourth Thursday of each month, with some modifications for holiday schedules (as in November.) Trustee meetings and committee meetings are open to the public. Minutes of each meeting are also provided to the township, and are available upon request to the organization.
Please contact the Coalition at info@twotowns.org or visit our website www.twotowns.org if you would like further information.
Best wishes for a happy Thanksgiving,
Barbara Heisler Williams |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 2217
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 9:28 am: |
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Well, it’s not always just about the perception! Clear and straightforward facts sure go a long way in understanding how an organization runs...
Don’t you just love it when someone in authority steps up, and clears up any misconceptions? I think it’s pretty clear that if anyone really wants to get involved in the CCR they can regardless of their political affiliation.
FWIW, the folks running town hall should take a lesson from the CCR. Perceptions divided by communication, add in some straightforward answers, multiply the facts, and the result equals a better understanding of the problem.
Thank you Barbara Heisler Williams, and very best wishes to you and yours, and to everyone at the CCR for a Happy Thanksgiving, and many more successful years for your organization.
PS: My check is in the mail for this year’s donation... |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 3935
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 8:02 am: |
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Barbara and Kathy -
Thank you for the straight forward explanation of how the CCR is chartered, organized and led. Being open about the organization I think is a very good thing and will in the long run benefit your goals. |
kathy
Citizen
Username: Kathy
Post Number: 675
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 4:34 pm: |
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In looking at my post I see that I worded some of it inaccurately. It looks like I suggested that an individual trustee had been reprimanded in some way, when it was rather that the trustees as a whole had been reminded that when one holds certain offices, it is not always possible to speak "as an individual" without having it be seen as a reflection of your group. In my many years on PTA Presidents' Council, incoming presidents were also reminded of this on a regular basis. I do know of one person years ago who resigned her PTA presidency in order to maintain the ability to speak as an individual.
It is hard to see where some of the misinformation about the Coalition comes from. Why would anyone suppose that it gives money to political candidates?? |
Redsox
Citizen
Username: Redsox
Post Number: 374
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 12:34 pm: |
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get real...
ccr is intertwined in local politics.....
i'll give u one tiny example......
a couple yrs ago our block association had a little block party......
our little block association is under the "umbrella of the ccr"- as are most block associations in the two towns....
well anyway, a couple of ccr people who don't live in the neighborhood were hanging around awaiting freddie.... lo and behold huemer showd up...i thought these guys were going to faint.... "what's he doing here..... oh, he lives in the neighborhood...."
of course it's political.....half the friggin trustees are involved in politics......and don't forget that meetings used to be held in secret....
so if you're not a trustee, can u be trusted by the ccr..... |
yabbadabbadoo
Citizen
Username: Yabbadabbadoo
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 3:35 pm: |
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thoomp, thoomp, thoomp, thoomp, thoomp, thoomp <.....(sound of black helicopter hovering overhead) |
Diversity Man
Citizen
Username: Deadwhitemale
Post Number: 527
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 5:15 pm: |
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"Black" is a a racist description of a helicopter.
Light absorbing, or non-reflective helicopter would be more acceptable to the CCR thought monitors.
DWM |
marie
Citizen
Username: Marie
Post Number: 918
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 11:24 am: |
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fringe
Citizen
Username: Fringe
Post Number: 240
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 4, 2003 - 9:27 am: |
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In the space of this thread, we have:
* The CCR "promotes, encourages and celebrates this rich diversity - of opinion, ... political affiliation ..." - from the solicitation letter
* The mission of the CCR is to promote integration as an ideal. Although we may believe that diversity of thought (including political thought) is a good thing, that does not mean that it makes sense to elect as trustees people who think that our given mission is a waste of time and money. - CCR Trustee Kathy
* Committee membership is open to any resident wishing to serve who can see themselves working constructively toward the objectives set by that committee. - CCR Exec Director
Very few, if any residents, do not support "integration" as a general concept, but there is broad interpretation as to what it means because of the very vagueness of the term. Apparently Kathy and her colleagues define those who do not share their interpretation as off-mission and unworthy of consideration for trusteeship. This reinforces the point that a limitation on debate input guarantees the Resolution output and committee objectives. No problem with that for private organizations, but there are big issues for publicly funded ones. How about this for a solution. Instead of soliciting money from those whose views are not represented by the current CCR trustees, the organization refunds the proportional tax support it receives to those who request it?
JTL |
marie
Citizen
Username: Marie
Post Number: 936
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 4, 2003 - 11:38 am: |
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CCR,
How would one go about asking for a refund? I'm guestimating the average contribution to the CCR by the individual taxpayer, is about $25.00. I want my money back. With whom do I speak about getting a refund? |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 1607
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 4, 2003 - 12:45 pm: |
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I don't think there's anything particularly vague about the meaning of "integration," and I don't see where the grey area is when it comes to believing that integration as a mission is a waste of time and money.
There certainly are degrees of integration, but if you don't recognize the value of it at all, you have no more business on the CCR board than an atheist does being a deacon at OLS. |
kathy
Citizen
Username: Kathy
Post Number: 678
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 4, 2003 - 4:42 pm: |
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Marie, Re "I'm guestimating the average contribution to the CCR by the individual taxpayer, is about $25.00. " I believe that you are off by roughly an order of magnitude. I doubt that the amount that your "contribution" represents would pay for the check and the stamp to return it to you.
Maplewood's total municipal contribution to the Community Coalition for 2003 is $30,000. That's about $1.25 per resident. If you want to go "per taxpayer", maybe twice that.
South Orange, with 2/3 the population, gave $35,000 to the Coalition in 2003. Before the Coalition was created, they were doing some of the same things on their own and are therefore perhaps in a better position to realize the value of the expenditures. |
marie
Citizen
Username: Marie
Post Number: 944
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, December 5, 2003 - 7:42 am: |
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Kathy,
I should have said a total of $25.00 per taxpayer, over the past five years
Could you, or another CCR member, please tell me how much I have contributed through my taxpaying dollars, to the CCR over the past 5 years?
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Soda
Citizen
Username: Soda
Post Number: 1105
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, December 5, 2003 - 9:30 am: |
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Marie, you never disappoint. |
michael
Citizen
Username: Michael
Post Number: 428
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Friday, December 5, 2003 - 11:12 am: |
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Oh Tom, stop it. Now!
The value of integration, The value of integration, The value of integration, ...
Yeah... Yeah.. Yeah … OK we get it! We got it the last 100 times or so its been used as an argument. I value integration! My family I values integration!
My own family is integrated for Pete's sake!!!
So now what! This kind of crap leads nowhere absolutely nowhere.
It’s juvenile and below your intelligence.
There is absolutely no substance in the whole "If you value integration you must support the CCR (Ministry of Propaganda) argument. It’s not even an argument.
If you really value diversity then you would listen to people with alternative solutions and other ideas. What are they afraid of? That it’s not working?
Well guess what kids, it ain’t!
Support the Maplewood/South Orange Ministry of Propaganda
(formerly known as the CCR)
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tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 1613
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, December 5, 2003 - 12:33 pm: |
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quote:There is absolutely no substance in the whole "If you value integration you must support the CCR (Ministry of Propaganda) argument. It’s not even an argument.
I'm not making that argument. I'm arguing that if you do not value it you should not be on the board.
But while we're on the subject, just what ARE the alternative solutions and other ideas?
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michael
Citizen
Username: Michael
Post Number: 429
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Friday, December 5, 2003 - 3:17 pm: |
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Tom. Give me an f-ing break! You really don't get it?
It’s a one minded - one thought- one way- de facto political organization. What chance in hell (not that I would want to) does someone like myself, moderate-conservative, 1st generation , white male, ( no rich liberal guilt coming from this kid) working my ass off 7 days a week, trying to provide my family with a better quality of life than I had growing up, believes in diversity, integration (whatever the hell that means) but believes equally in accountability, hard work and most importantly honesty and an end to the culture of victimization have of being on that board ?
Like I said – great PR , smoke and mirror operation. Benefits my home value, and keeps the realtors, as they resell the same homes for the 3rd or 4th time over 6 years really happy. (Hey, there it is! TC – cut all funding to CCR. Let the realtors fund them directly!)
But Coalition on race, political diversity, diversity of opinion?
Support the Maplewood/South Orange Ministry of Propaganda
(formerly known as the CCR)
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yabbadabbadoo
Citizen
Username: Yabbadabbadoo
Post Number: 6
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 5, 2003 - 11:39 pm: |
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Great argument!
: I don't believe that any of them share any of my values so they must not.
:And if I actualy wanted to make a positive contribution as a trustee, they wouldn't have me even though i've never served on a subcommittee; a prerequisite of becoming a trustee. (see bhl's post above)
:I don't really understand what the organization is all about so therefore its all smoke and mirrors
it's all clear to me now
FF
NB Diversity and integration are not synonomous. I guess you don't f-ing get it.
I'm so surprised. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 1616
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 6, 2003 - 12:27 am: |
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Culture of victimization? I'll give you my culture of victimization: I lived in my house for ten years while realtors steered white families away from this neighborhood. Houses on the other side of town doubled in value or more, while mine rose about $5,000. You want to know what integration means? It means that when I had my house on the market in '97 it sure would have been nice if I had access to the entire home buying marketplace, not just the minority that the realtors thought were suitable for this part of town. Nobody has repealed the law of supply and demand, and if 80% of the demand is artificially shut off, down goes your price. The abuse of free market capitalism at work. It's functionally the same as a boycott. You believe in accountability? Me too. Racial steering is against the law, and I'm glad somebody is out there making sure that there is some accountability.
Smoke and mirrors? If articles in The New York Times, "Best Town" ratings by national magazines, and bus tours for prospective buyers are smoke and mirrors, I'll take them. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 3996
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 6, 2003 - 7:06 am: |
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I am not a big fan of the CCRs' organization and seeming secrecy. However, they have done a lot of good here by bringing racial issues to the table and it seems that some areas (see George Robinson's report in the NR a couple of weeks ago) in helping to reintegrate Hilton.
There is a sub-set of people here in town who are in denial that over the last ten years Maplewood has changed. It has and we have to deal with it, even if not all are really happy about it. |
anon
Citizen
Username: Anon
Post Number: 852
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, December 6, 2003 - 2:27 pm: |
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Michael: I was waiting to see you posting so I could publicly commend you on your good samaritan act of heroism a couple of weeks ago. I heard from a reliable source that you pulled a woman from a burning car.
Would you kindly stop having such a visceral reaction to the CCR long enough to post your specific disagreements with its policies and practices? BobK doesn't like the secrecy. You seem incensed by the "political correctness". If they are the "Ministry of Propaganda" or the Public Relations Agent for the Town, so what if it works? PC or PR, please explain your objectioons |
marie
Citizen
Username: Marie
Post Number: 954
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 6, 2003 - 5:37 pm: |
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anon,
Not only did he pull a woman from a burning car, but also "went in" among downed electrical wires, barefoot, amidst broken windshield glass.
He doesn't feel he did anything heroic - just the right thing.
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anon
Citizen
Username: Anon
Post Number: 857
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, December 6, 2003 - 10:16 pm: |
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Marie: He may not feel heroic but my hat is off to him. And you should be very proud. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4003
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, December 7, 2003 - 8:25 am: |
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The Mayor is on the CCR Board because of his posistion. When he becomes the ex-Mayor jon January 1, I wonder if he will be asked to join the board? I think, politics aside, his views are quite compatable with that organization.
and boy do I love to cause trouble. |
michael
Citizen
Username: Michael
Post Number: 431
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, December 7, 2003 - 10:00 am: |
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Might be asked, but will he accept ?
Support the Maplewood/South Orange Ministry of Propaganda
(formerly known as the CCR)
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