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ASH
Citizen
Username: Ash
Post Number: 62
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 9:15 pm: | 
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Thank you all so much for the information and support...I will get the book and check it out. And I'll wait 'til we're settled in--and until his second top tooth has broken through--to decide what to do. It does seem like things are gradually getting better, as his bedtime is creeping earlier and earlier.. I'll report back with my results. |
ashear
Citizen
Username: Ashear
Post Number: 788
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 10:28 am: |
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We have two kids both of whom we have done some version of "Ferberizing" with and both of whom have become good sleepers. One thing on the teething. Don't be afraid to give some advil at bedtime. If your baby wakes up after 6-8 hours instead of earlier that will be a good sign that its the teeth that are the problem (6-8 hours is about how long the advil will last). Its also important to be senstive to what is going on. We have definitely found that change, going on a trip, moving, etc., will cause sleep problems for a few days.
One other thing that has worked well for us is a pre-sleep routine (this is something you see recommended in the books a lot). We do the same thing every night. With our younger child this means, reading a book in the rocking chair followed by singing her a few songs, always the same ones. After the last one she always asks for one more, of her choice. Kids crave structure and by doing the same thing before bed every time you let them know that its time for bed and give them time to settle down and get ready for sleep. |
ASH
Citizen
Username: Ash
Post Number: 63
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 4:55 pm: |
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I've tried both Tylenol and Motrin, so maybe we'll give Advil a whirl. We do have a bedtime routine that I've been trying to stick with as well, which unfortunately will probably go out the window while we're traveling...the good news is that his second top tooth is beginning to make its appearance (after a really rough night last night) so maybe teething hell is almost over. |
Lydia
Citizen
Username: Lydial
Post Number: 178
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 6:22 pm: |
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I'm not a fan of the Ferber method, but if sleep deprivation gets unbearable for the parents, I understand the temptation and really can't condemn anyone for going that route.
I found the books by Dr. Sears to be so helpful. He has a book about getting children to sleep, and I think he's the father of 9, as well as a pediatrician. He strongly advocates "attachment parenting", which in my experience is just following your natural instincts and staying clued into the baby's needs.
Neither of my children slept through the night until they were about a year old. They both slept in my bed with me and when they woke up I would roll over and nurse and go back to sleep. I had a crib that was designed for co-sleeping, one side went down and it attached to our bed like a sidecar. I would loan it to you but it's still making the rounds with friends and friends-of-friends 4 years later.
For teething problems I sometimes gave them "rescue remedy" (one of the Bach's remedies, you can find it at a health store), I think I waited until they were a year though. A few drops of Lavender essential oil on their quilts and blankies also seemed to have a calming effect.
Good luck! |
shoshannah
Citizen
Username: Shoshannah
Post Number: 305
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 7:23 pm: |
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What all this adds up to is that it is more of an art than a science. |
gretchen
Citizen
Username: Gretchen
Post Number: 74
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 7:24 pm: |
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A better book than Ferber (in my opinion) is Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child by Marc Weisbluth. A lot more information for different ages, a lot more explanation and not just anecdotes. I came from a crunchy Park Slope attachment parenting all the way stance and I ended up letting both of my girls cry it out (3 years apart). I tried everything I could to go another way, but my girls ended up screaming in my arms as I paced the house with them. They were desparately tired (overtired) but completely did not have the skills to go to sleep on their own. The things that I would do to get them to sleep--nursing, rocking, white noise, etc., weren't working anymore.
This is a really controversial subject, and everyone has to do it their own way, but I think it is important to remember how incredibly valuable the skill of being able to go to sleep on your own when you are tired is. I feel badly for a child who is incredibly cranky and unable to deal with life because they are so darn tired and won't (or can't) sleep. I think a consistent bedtime routine is really important.
The thing about teething is--kids teeth for 2 years. If you can't sleep when you're teething it's going to be a rough time. I found motrin seemed to relieve my girls' teething discomfort.
Good luck! |
NCJanow
Citizen
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 1073
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 8:40 pm: |
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferber Recants!
The November 8, 1999 issue of the New Yorker has a very interesting article at page 56, by Jack Seabrook, called "Annals of Parenthood: Sleeping with the Baby". In putting together the article, the author interviewed Dr. Ferber, and confessed to him that they take their baby to bed with them. The below is a small excerpt from the article; I have asked for, and am currently waiting for, permission to reprint the entire article, or a large portion of it, here on the site. In the meantime, you can order this issue from the New Yorker Website for $7.50. It's a nice long article, and worth the cost!
Article author:
" But it says here in your book that although taking your child into bed with you for a night if he is ill or very upset about something, for the most part this is not a good idea."
Dr. Ferber:
"I wish I hadn't written those sentences. That came out of some of the existing literature. It is a blanket statement that is just not right. There's plenty examples of co-sleeping where it works out just fine. My feeling now is that children can sleep with or without their parents. What is really important is that the parents work out what they want to do."
[Ed. comment: Good for you, Dr. Ferber!]
NCJ aka LibraryLady
On a coffee break..or something like it.
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shh
Citizen
Username: Shh
Post Number: 737
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 9:23 pm: |
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My feeling, having raised three pretty good sleepers is that a lot of it is determination on the parents' part. I expected my kids to sleep pretty early on, as my mom told me all her kids were sleeping through the night pretty early. (And my kids were breast fed premies, hers were not.) There are plenty of ways to do it, but we as parents need to learn to trust our instincts and understand our kids needs.
For teething I have given my kids a little tylenol at night and it helps a lot, but I almost never give them medication so it probably knocks them right out.  |
sac
Citizen
Username: Sac
Post Number: 778
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 10:40 pm: |
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Motrin = Advil |
knak
Citizen
Username: Knak
Post Number: 34
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 11:07 pm: |
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One thing that has been part of our bedtime routine off and on for years is a massage with Vaseline - of my daughter's back, often butt, legs & arms, sometimes feet. A massage therapist taught me that the most soothing approach is long smooth downward strokes, with a hand on the body for continuity. Whether or not it results in sleep, it's usually calming and can help keep a child lying down in bed vs. jumping around. Can be good for calming after nightmares too.
knak |
dave23
Citizen
Username: Dave23
Post Number: 100
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 9:36 am: |
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My daughter just turned two and has suddenly decided that she doesn't want to go to bed. Right now, I read to her in the den until she falls asleep (anywhere between 9:30 and 11:30). Then I put her in her crib and she sleeps through the rest of the night.
She has learned to jump out of her crib, but has stopped doing so. We bought her a bed but haven't used it yet.
This has not been a terrible ordeal, since I love reading to her and hanging out with her, but it can be a bit straining when it gets really late (or when she wakes up when I try to carry her upstairs). I'm just concerned about developing bad habits and I'm a bit anxious to put her in the bed. If she has trouble adjusting to the bed, Ferberizing won't be an option since she can open her door herself. |
redY67
Citizen
Username: Redy67
Post Number: 181
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 10:53 am: |
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dave23--this is similar to what happened with my son. You can put a protection device on the doorknob so she can't open it. If you saw my above post we did this when my son was 2. It was REALLY tough, but the pediatrician recommended it to us. We would put my son in bed, close the door, and if he cried, we let him cry until he went to sleep. A couple of nights he was on the floor. If you think you can tough it out, I recommend it. |
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1039
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 10:57 am: |
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I think it's a terrible safety hazard and a very bad message to lock a kid in his room. However, I think it's fine to lock a kid out of your room.
Tom Reingold
There is nothing
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redY67
Citizen
Username: Redy67
Post Number: 183
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 11:03 am: |
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Tom--just an FYI, it was recommended by our doctor. I understand where you are coming from, because I felt horrible. The difference for us, was that our son couldn't open the door, so I put up a gate, and left the door cracked. |
ASH
Citizen
Username: Ash
Post Number: 64
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 11:17 am: |
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Shoshannah, you're right--this is truly an art rather than a science.
One thing I've been doing is jumping the gun on our bedtime routine, starting it a couple hours early because it seems like my son is sleepy and ready to go down (and one piece of advice I've gotten is to put him down to bed much earlier), but of course he doesn't end up actually being truly ready until 8 p.m. or 9 p.m.
So tonight my scheme will be to begin the bedtime routine at around 7:30 so we don't have hours of struggle before sleep and see how it goes...wish me luck!
P.S. Knak--I'm trying to make baby massage part of our routine too...I think it does help.
P.P.S. Thanks NCJanow for the New Yorker cite. |
dave23
Citizen
Username: Dave23
Post Number: 101
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 12:08 pm: |
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Red, thanks. I saw your post, and that's what got me thinking. Since we have not reached the point of putting her in the bed yet, I'm not going to consider putting anything on the doorknob for now. (And, truth be told, I can't imagine doing it at all--but that's easy for me to say right now.)
I agree with ASH and Shoshannah who say it's more art than science. We'll see how it goes. |
marie
Citizen
Username: Marie
Post Number: 888
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 12:23 pm: |
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Lots of great information here - Ferber worked for one of my kids, never for the other who to this day, still wakes up in the middle of the night ( he's 10!!!) You have to make an informed guess about your child's "wiring." If he is easily startled, difficult to calm, has major separation anxiety, doesn't nap well, wakes easily and overall seems to be a fussy baby, you'll probably have, more of a challenge sorting this one out. If your child doesn't fall into that "fussy" category, try the Ferber and a follow a strict bedtime routine. Also be sure he isn't suffering from an ear infection and or fluid in his ears. Good Luck |
tourne
Citizen
Username: Tourne
Post Number: 233
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 11:47 pm: |
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Seems like sleep habits are really individual in nature. Being that humans take so long to grow up, it also seems reasonable for children to have need for attachment during sleep for at least 2 to 3 years, when they are still very much dependent on parents for their existence. Now if we could just get to bed when they do, we'd get a lot more sleep! |
ASH
Citizen
Username: Ash
Post Number: 65
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 3:36 pm: |
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That's for sure tourne!
By the way, I think I figured out part of my son's problem...I stuffed him full of solid food last night before bed. While he still woke a couple of times during the night, he slept for much longer stretches than he has been, and when he did wake he was much less fussy.
I've been introducing solids gradually, but maybe too gradually; I think he might be really hungry when he wakes up. He's also very big for his age. So I'm giving him three hearty meals today and we'll see what happens tonight...maybe all he needs is a full tummy!
And of course...I was awake all night waiting for him to wake up...maybe I'm the one who needs the sleep training! |
susan1014
Citizen
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 58
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 4:04 pm: |
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Such an amazingly hot-button topic in America. Our daughter had a very hard time sleeping unless she was in physical contact with someone (I figure that the cave-baby within knew that babies who sleep alone might be eaten by wolves!). Eventually we ended up co-sleeping because I figured out that the alternative was being so sleep-deprived that I would drive into a tree some day!
Seriously, although unexpected, the co-sleeping worked out fine, and ended with an early move to a much loved "big girl bed". Given our initial mixed feelings on the issue, let me mention a couple of things
First, unless you are very obese, drunk, or drugged, the safety record of co-sleeping is quite good. In fact, some scientists believe that it is protective against SIDS, as it keeps babies from going into overly deep sleeping patterns. In fact, the Wall Street Journal published an article 2 or 3 years ago discussing these facts, and pointing out that the big campaigns against co-sleeping in the media are funded by the crib and baby bedding industries.
Second, a guest room is a good thing to have when you cosleep ;-)
Third, most of the world cosleeps. I had a fascinating discussion in the office lunchroom soon after my return to work (at a big professional services firm). We had about 8 consultants at the table, and all agreed that the crib was the least useful thing they owned. As my-coworkers tentatively broached the topic of co-sleeping, it bacame clear that all of our children spent lots of time in the parental bed, and that I, the only one born in the US, was the only one feeling conflicted about it. Everyone else at the table was from cultures where cosleeping was much more commonplace (India, China, Russia, and one or two others, if I recall...my office is pretty international).
I don't mean to sound like I'm pushing co-sleeping, or bashing Ferber (although his methods were non-starters with our child). What I do want to say is make a sane decision about what works for you and your child, and don't worry too much about what parents, inlaws, and even pediatricians say about it, since none of them have had much formal training in the matter (very little is taught on the topic in medical school). |
ASH
Citizen
Username: Ash
Post Number: 66
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 5:05 pm: |
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thank you Susan1014, for your thoughtful and empowering response! These are such hot topics--co sleeping and sleeping through the night--and people can be dogmatic or even nasty about them! (although everyone on this thread has been very nice). Not so on a board I sometimes look at for NYC moms and dads; things there can get pretty ugly!
And it is easy to start feeling like a "bad parent" because I haven't succeeded in getting my son to sleep through the night yet...
There is also so much received wisdom on this subject; our (ex-)pediatrician told me it was "unacceptable" that our baby wasn't sleeping through the night yet (he wasn't yet six months old).
Our baby does indeed spend a lot of time in our bed, at least when he gets ready to sleep for the night and when he naps. And it's working OK for us for now; I think he really does find it comforting. |
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1088
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 4:46 pm: |
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I suppose it's a combination of both nature and skill, which can be taught.
I wonder why they call it "solid food" when it's liquid (if we're talking about rice mush).
Tom Reingold
There is nothing
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Phil
Citizen
Username: Barleyrooty
Post Number: 716
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 5:45 pm: |
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susan: great post. we were big fans of co-sleeping when our son was tiny. In our case though, we did, in hindsight, leave it too long. If I could do it again I would have moved our son out around 6-9 months. By 2.5 none of us were sleeping well, and the process of getting him to his own bed was very tough. Having gone through it, I think the best answer is susans: whatever works for you and your child is best. There seems to be a very wide variety of needs for both child and parents.
We did have an excellent book to help us which I can highly recommend:
Sleeping Through the Night : How Infants, Toddlers, and Their Parents Can Get a Good Night's Sleep
by Jodi A. Mindell
It doesn't strongly advocate a particular technique but instead has a survey of many techniques. It ends up recommending a process which I think of as "gentler and more flexible" Ferber.
Well worth a read whatever you decide to do.
...and Advil is a must for teething!!! |
Wendyn
Citizen
Username: Wendyn
Post Number: 62
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 9:23 am: |
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Don't worry, in about 10 years you won't be able to get your kids out of bed. I remember my mom vaccuming at noon on a Saturday outside my room trying to get me up when I was a teenager.
How I miss those days! Now the hub and I trade off weekend days to be able to sleep until 7.
FYI...my almost 3 year old wakes up at least once a night. My 6 month old slept through the night (with no prompting) at 1 month. Go figure. |
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