| Author | Message | ||
     bill671 Citizen Username: Bill671 Post Number: 12 Registered: 6-2002 |
Yes, officers who leave can be replaced, but let's look at it for the taxpayer's view - dollars and cents. Training that replacement costs money. Overtime to cover the missing officer's position in the schedule and on the road costs money. The money that was spent to train the office who has left no longer makes a return on the township's investment - some other department makes out big time. Potentially the lack of experience exposes the Township to a greater liability for civil actions, as a replacement making a life or death decision may not make the same decision as a more experienced officer. Worse still, if some of our best officers have left for other departments, they are not here to pass on the benefit of their experience to the replacements, further exasperating the situation. In corporate parlance, there is no knowledge transfer. More dollars, and to me - EVEN MORE SENSE. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 2191 Registered: 9-2001 |
Valid points sir... however, it is what it is! Next year when it comes time to pull the lever, make sure it's for someone who supports your position. Untill then we'll just have to suck it up friend!  | ||
| bill671 Citizen Username: Bill671 Post Number: 13 Registered: 6-2002 |
So you'e saying to accept the status quo of an law enforcement exodus from Maplewood? Allow it to continue until different persons are in office? I can't believe that's your true feeling, Art. You're the one who even though the TC put the kabosh on the library site for the new headquarters, you're still politicking for it's reconsideration. What many of the people here are trying to do is the same thing, get the TC to reconsider their stance, do the job they were elected for and act for the overall good of Maplewood and it's quality of life, not permit it to languish further than it already has. | ||
| Former Mpd Citizen Username: Former_mpd Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2003 |
The Officers who left didn't hold positions of rank in the dept. The dept. hasn't had any promotions in approx. 3yrs which is another reason why people are leaving the dept. As far as I know the most senior guy who left the dept had approx. 14yrs with the dept. You have apprx. 3-5 guys who had between 8-12yrs of experience and then you had apprx. 8-10 guys who had between 5-8yrs of experience and the rest had between 1-4yrs of experience. You have several guys who are on the verge of retiring(3-4yrs). I would have to say that 95% (the honest truth) of the cops at the dept. would leave if they could goto another dept and keep their same salary. If you look around at surrounding Police Dept's they don't have the big turnover rate that Maplewood is currently experiencing. Maplewood is a training ground for other depts. the guys come to Maplewood where they goto the Police Academy (paid for by the town)and they leave to goto better depts. Nobody trusts or believes in the Administration NOBODY!!!!! The TC is mad at the PD so they are taking it out on them refusing to work with the PD, and the current PD administration is not looking out for the officers. Working for Maplewood PD is a dead end job, no room for advancement and no future. If I'm a new police officer and they guys I work with are telling me to leave why should I stay. Why should I stay and continue to be miserable like everybody else. Experience and knowlege are essential in order to become a good cop. Look at society today, the reason we continue to grow is because we learn from those ahead of us and take that knowledge and keep taking steps forward. Nobody believes in the Chief, but then again who wants to folow somebody who DOES NOT have your best interests at heart. | ||
| Joan Citizen Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 2169 Registered: 5-2001 |
Bill671 is making a very valid point. Recruitment, testing (which for police officers frequently includes education and experience, written, physical, medical and pychiatric subtests), background investigation, hiring, academy training, on-the-job training, time of experienced officers to provide this training ... it all adds up to far more of an expenditure than the salary increase that the PBA members are likely to be requesting. Add to that the errors in judgment that new officers can make and the cost this can have in life and property. We just can't continue to go on the way we have. The Light, Tim, FormerMPD and others: It has been stated that one of the problems entry level MPD officers face is is lack of promotion opportunity. Given that Maplewood has a small police department with relatively few supervisory and administrative uniformed positions, what would you suggest the Town do in lieu of promotion lines to give the entry level officers a feeling of career commitment? | ||
| Copihue Citizen Username: Cop Post Number: 128 Registered: 10-2003  |
Former MPD, why is the career path of a Maplewood police officer worse than the career path of a West Orange police officer? a South Orange police officer? Who benefits from the current schedule? what percentage of the force? If your department is run the way my former department was run, then the police chief rewarded his supporters with good schedules and punished the rebels with lousy schedules, he dangles the promise of a good schedule to enduce you to be quiet. Am I on the right track? Is support for the Chief a contentious issue on the MPD? I had no idea that we actually pay for these officers to go to the Police Academy and then we let them go. That is ridiculous. How much does the training cost per officer? Pack your own chute. | ||
| thelight Citizen Username: Thelight Post Number: 108 Registered: 8-2001 |
Greetings , Art, I stand corrected, I was under the impression that you had served your time in the Marines, I now know it was the Navy. One of the greater problems that the Police Department is facing is the conflict of interests that the position of Police Chief holds. The Patrolmen answer to the Chief, but, the Chief is ultimately guided by the T/C. If the Chief steps out of line, he faces the wrath of the T/C. Many times the Chief will not stand up to the T/C and ask for monies for the Department for equipment. If he does, and the T/C does not agree with the wants, well then the Chief could very well be looking for a new job. Case in point, I am told that a short while ago, the Police Dept. had money in the bank for laptop computers in our patrol cars so that we can do our jobs properly, i.e. report writing, running license plates and the like. Suddenly, the Firemen in town made a plea for a new fire engine, guess what? yep, the T/C took our laptop money and handed it over to the Fire Dept. I understand this money was transferred without the slightest of objection from our Police Chief! Sometimes it is very difficult to determine whose side the Chief is on. If a business in the private sector was run like our Police Dept. is run....the business would be bankrupt within days. Thank You, The Light. | ||
| bill671 Citizen Username: Bill671 Post Number: 14 Registered: 6-2002 |
Another issue to consider is when a senior - read experienced = officer decides to go to another department, he's also throwing his/her seniority to the wind. There are no lateral transfers here, you start out at the bottom of the seniority and pay ladders in your new department. No officer is going to give these things up lightly, yet our officers are finding it to be a necessity. | ||
| Reflective Citizen Username: Reflective Post Number: 177 Registered: 3-2003 |
Well stated thelight! Back to morale and public safety. Respect costs nothing but means an outreach by the the TC and appt officials. And depolitizing the police dept. The chief should not be a TC puppet. Maybe thelight, you could contrast our current situation with how chiefs in other depts are allowed to operate. Public safety, starting with training, laptops, safety equipment and so on costs money. If the TC feels a budget crunch, maybe programs such as the subsidized jitney, and CCR contributions should be re-assessed. Every municipal dollar should count. One benchmark I would suggest is to weigh the dollars spent on their impact on the community. I would start by saying that the dollars spent on the police impact every maplewoodian, their homes, children and businesses. Think about the other programs and while they are well-intentionned, are they worth more than public safety? | ||
| officerfriendly Citizen Username: Officerfriendly Post Number: 14 Registered: 6-2002 |
why is the career path of a Maplewood police officer worse than the career path of a West Orange police officer? a South Orange police officer? The two other departments you mentioned are civil service. Maplewood is considered a 'chief' town. Other 'chief' towns in the area are Glen Ridge and Montclair. In a 'chief' town there are no guidelines for promotions, it is up to the individual town. Civil service towns have to follow civil service guidelines, and that means the promotional opportunities are more fair. Since I'm on the topic of promotions, we haven't had any promotions in three years. The big hang up is promotional testing. For years, since the beginning, the TC had total control over who got promoted. The only thing an officer did was go before the TC for an interview, and they could ask you anything. There was no rhyme or reason on who they picked. It probably went something like this: TC # 1: I like officer a, he seems ok. TC # 2: I like officer a also, I know his parents. TC # 3: I also like officer a, he lives in town. TC # 4: I like officer a, he went to school with my son. TC # 5: I like officer a, cause the Chief wants him. Guess who got picked....officer a! The PBA has always wanted some form of promotional testing, but the TC always backed off. Either they didn't want to lose control or it cost too much money. So it never went anywhere. Now, all of a sudden, about three years ago the TC wanted promotional testing. Why? Why would they want to give up total control? It doesn't make sense. But they rushed and pushed a testing procedure down our throats in 2001, which was not agreed upon by the PBA. The new testing procedure, as proposed by the TC, would go like this: 25-30 officers would have to buy books and study aids, maybe take a course, costing around 2-3000 dollars of their own money. Study for 2-3 months and take a test. Go before a oral board made up of Chiefs. Get evaluated, like sick time, disciplinary, and attendance issues. Once that was done, there would be a ranking for the officers to appear before the TC for a final interview. The rankings: # 1 - Officer a # 2 - Officer b # 3 - Officer c # 4 - Officer d etc. So far, so good. Seems fair. But wait.... Then the selection process would go like this: TC # 1: I like officer c, he seems ok. TC # 2: I like officer c also, I know his parents. TC # 3: I also like officer c, he lives in town. TC # 4: I like officer c, he went to school with my son. TC # 5: I like officer c, cause the Chief wants him. Guess who got picked???? Not the officers who finished first or second, but whoever the TC wanted. Where's the incentive for an officer to finish number one when he knows that he doesn't have a fair chance? In a civil service town, at least number one is number one, etc. and it is fair for everyone. thank you, officerfriendly | ||
| Reflective Citizen Username: Reflective Post Number: 178 Registered: 3-2003 |
OF your summary takes my breath away. Put another way, the TC looks good on paper for appearing objective, but since we are a chief town, the TC makes the same old subjective decisions, based on: not what you know, but who you know. Just a question for the board, doesn't the civil service route seem fairer? | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 2192 Registered: 9-2001 |
Bill671, What I’m saying is, it is what it is..." I believe I already said you have some valid points. Listen, you’re a better man than me if you can get the TC to reconsider their stance on anything. Anyway, who knows what they were elected for? The answer will just depend on whom you speak to... Former MPD, “Nobody trusts or believes in the Administration NOBODY!!!!!” That’s a sad state of affairs. What can I say other than I sure hope the new officers have better luck than you did. The Light, I believe what you’re saying is the Chief is between a rock and a hard place… Look, I hear you, and I understand what you’re saying, but there’s no one simple answer to your problems... It’s obvious good communication is missing, and there’s little hope it will change under the present administration. So, tell me how you would handle the department if you were the Chief? Officerfriendly, “The PBA has always wanted some form of promotional testing, but the TC always backed off.” I have to ask you, is the promotion procedure kept a secret until after you join the police department? | ||
| Copihue Citizen Username: Cop Post Number: 130 Registered: 10-2003 |
Promotions are always contentious issues, but it sounds as if there's room for improvement in this process. Testing is a move in the right direction, but it is not enough. What surprises me about your description is the amount of influence of the TC, and how little input the police dept has over these important issues. What does the TC know about the details of policing and who makes contributions on a daily basis? Civil service is no answer either. The new theory is the 360 degree evaluation system, where input is gathered from supervisors, peers and the people served. Would the process benefit from getting input from the community? is that possible? Could letters be gathered from other police officers describing the contributions of each officer, would that help? I don't think that you can ever stop making the fact that the officer lives in town and went to school with the son/daughter of the Mayor a strong influence, but if more information is gathered, its importance can be reduced and it may result in openning up the process. A letter from another officer may not necessarily make a difference for all will get a good letter, but more info is gathered and it may have a better chance of changing people's minds. Can you tell us more about the shifts: are there three? what hours? how is that decision made? Pack your own chute. | ||
| Former Mpd Citizen Username: Former_mpd Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2003 |
I will say it because noone else will say it, the Officers do not trust,believe in, and the majority strongly dislike the Chief of Police. You can't blame them because the Chief makes empty promises!! When he was first appointed Chief of Police he told the Officers that he would give them a new schedule that suits the men and stills fills the needs of the township. They are still waiting for that new schedule. It's a shame when you have guys who have worked for 15yrs for the dept and still can't get the entire weekend off (ie off fri-sat or sun-mon). Yet the Chief always has the weekend off. Most PD work a 4 & 4 schedule (work 4 days off 4 days). Believe it or not Hillside PD works a 5 & 5 and have been doing so for approx. 20yrs. As far as promotional testing, we understand that life isn't fair and we can't expect to have a completely unbiased system of testing. Even in the Corporate world there is no fair system of advancement, it's usually who you know not what you know. To be honest with you I don't think most guys in the PD would take the test because that means you would have to work closer with the Chief. If I were the Chief the first thing I would do is give the guys a better schedule, is it a crime to want to spend more time with family and friends? As far as pay, we did not choose this profession to become rich, but we also didn't choose this profession to become poor. Maplewood has the 3rd highest FD in the county and the one of the lowest paid PD's in the county. The officers are just asking to be fairly compensated-they are not looking to break the bank. The FD is the best dept in the town because of one main reason, they have a GREAT CHIEF. I can't think of the last time a firefighter left to goto another dept, or when was the last time anybody retired from the FD. You can't blame them because there Chief stands up for his men and for that reason alone they will follow him to the end of the world. Take for example the laptops for the PD, the money was suppose to goto the PD but the FD needed a new firetruck (Firetrucks are very expensive approx. $250,000 per truck). That's great leadership on the part of the Fire Chief becasue he got his men the tools they needed to effectively do their job, unlike the Chief of Police. Believe it or not the Pd could be turned around literally overnight. The building is no longer the issue, if you ask the officers which would they rather have a new building or a new schedule they would all choose the new schedule. Maplewood PD will never be able to retain any officers because there is nothing attractive to stay at the PD, at least under the current administration. Any person reading my comments may feel that I'm being unfair towards the chief, that is not the case I'm only speaking for those who can't voice their opinions. I hate to beat a dead horse but let's not forget that the PBA gave the Chief a vote of no confidence. That means that they don't believe in the chief and his abilities to lead them. A vote of no confidence is a rarity in the Law Enforcement field. For those who are interested contact other Police Dept's and ask them about a vote of no confidence. The officers are asking actually they are begging for the following: NEW LEADERSHIP,A BETTER SCHEDULE,NEW LEADERSHIP,MORE MONEY,NEW LEADERSHIP,BETTER EQUIPMENT AND TRAINING,NEW LEADERSHIP, AND FINALLY NEW LEADERSHIP. You can not expect to get good quality officers if the dept is being run into the ground. Most of the people who apply for the position at Maplewood would have a hard time getting hired by other PD's. But because Maplewood has such a bad name most qualified candidates would rather work anywhere else other than Maplewood. Do you realize that officers from Irvington PD(Most violent city in the State, currently State Troopers are patrolling in addition to the local PD)stated they would not come to work in Maplewood. If crime continues to get worse that means property values will continue to fall and it will be harder to attract new residents to the town. It's sad because I feel like I'm beating my head against the wall, I'm only repeating what's been said time and time again in this forum. Nothing is getting accomplished, more officers are leaving and crime continues to get worse. Let's not forget that at some point I and my fellow co-workers were new officers, and nothing has changed. What amazes me is that the FD and PD have approx the same amount of men, but yet the Fire Chief isn't caught between and rock and hard place yet the PD Chief is? I have an idea, the next time you have the opportunity to talk to a firemen ask him the difference between the FD and the PD. The FD is well aware of the situation at the PD they will tell you the same thing that myself, the light, and everybody else knows. I ask the Light,Officerfriendly, and Tim to dispute the points I have made today, I doubt they will be able to. | ||
| Copihue Citizen Username: Cop Post Number: 132 Registered: 10-2003 |
I am very alarmed by what is being said in this thread, and I am wondering if perhaps it's not a good idea to write a letter to the editor of the News Record summarizing the main ideas in this thread, so that more people become aware of the exact nature of the discontent in the MPD. We could concurrently or subsequently write a petition to urge the TC to address these issues. It may well be that the TC has the intention to do so, but having a petition may give them the additional support they need to get the difficult problems solved. What do others think about this? What was the date of the vote of no confidence? what was the official response to it? Pack your own chute. | ||
| Duncan Citizen Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 1135 Registered: 12-2001  |
FormerMPD your postings are interesting. But there is some contradiction. In one post you say.. "I would have to say that 95% (the honest truth) of the cops at the dept. would leave if they could goto another dept and keep their same salary." And yet in the next post you say "As far as pay, we did not choose this profession to become rich, but we also didn't choose this profession to become poor. Maplewood has the 3rd highest FD in the county and one of the lowest paid PD's in the county" The first sentence implies that the money is better than most places in the state and the second seems to claim that the opposite is true. Can you justify the contradiction? "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" Wayne Gretzky | ||
| ffof Citizen Username: Ffof Post Number: 1644 Registered: 5-2001  |
I know that Ken Pettis and Kathy Leventhal spoke about the sad state of the PD at their campaign coffees. I would expect to see some of the problems addressed after the first of the year. If I'm not mistaken, it seems that FormerMpd is saying that he'd switch for same pay, but I think what is implied is that another department might have annual pay raises inherent in the system - something to look forward to, but that is not the case where they are now. | ||
| ashear Citizen Username: Ashear Post Number: 798 Registered: 5-2001 |
The stats I've seen posted in the past have not indicate that crime in Maplewood is getting worse. Can anyone point me to contrary stats? | ||
| Duncan Citizen Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 1140 Registered: 12-2001 |
property values continue to fall??? From my friends that have tried/are trying to buy in Maplewood the above assertion would come as a poor joke at their expense. I have seen nothing but an increase in property values since moving here in 96 "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" Wayne Gretzky | ||
| lumpyhead Citizen Username: Lumpyhead Post Number: 520 Registered: 3-2002 |
Anyone live in Maplewood/So in 1987? |
