| Author |
Message |
    
mem aka "toots"
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 2338
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 10:59 am: | 
|
"Maybe part of my issue is that I am more old fashioned, law/order, respect adults than some folks in this town. I do hold those values, and a strong sense of property rights, and the right of women to be and feel safe in the community. Those values, for me, trump other concerns and I think they're race-neutral."
Thanks Cynicalgirl. You summed this up for a lot of us.
I have come to the conclusion that people should get a license to have kids. I mean, you have to get one to drive a car, and that's a lot less dangerous than raising a child... |
Rebecca Raines
Citizen
Username: Robin_realist
Post Number: 59
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 11:02 am: |
|
I agree with so much that's been said but from lots of different posters so won't try to list them. The kids are a problem. There is a lack of respect for adults in general and authority figures is specific. Is this new? I don't think so. Is this more prevalent than where/when I grew up? Definitely. I grew up in a midwestern conservative small town (12,000 + several thousand college students all stuck in the middle of farming communities). I really wasn't aware of race as an issue until I went to college because the few nonwhite families in our town were there for the university, very intelligent kids, treated like everyone else. Maybe because they acted like everyone else. Isn't that what it's all about. Fitting in. Peer pressure. Your upbringing has got to be strong enough to fight it. Kids make their own choices but those choices are based on what their parents have taught/are teaching them. When there are behavior problems and parents are called in, then talk back to police, teachers or library staff, that shows exactly why their kids don't respect authority.
I was taught to respect every human being for being human. I don't assume a kid will misbehave because of their skin color but almost all of the kids at loose ends from 3-6 are black kids. I don't think these are poor kids. Where are the white/brown kids? Is there a cultural difference that needs to be addressed? When kids have been sitting in school all day, then told to stay at the library for hours before they can go home, there's no wonder behavior problems erupt.
I think all parents need to know where/what their child is doing all the time. I really believe that. How else can you protect them? The key is letting them feel free while you keep them safe. For example: Would you let your 6th grader walk home from downtown or the Hilton Library at 6 or 7pm in the dark? Would you drop your kid off at a ballgame and then not be waiting to pick them up when it was over? We went to every home ballgame my school played, together. My brothers and I escaped to sit with friends and my parents sat high in the bleachers, lots of parents did. Are these games supposed to be just for kids now? Seems like disaster waiting to happen. Kids don't know how to hold back when they perceive threat to their honor. Ball games are basically war play. Adults need to be there.
Probably not too clear, so many thoughts, so little space. R |
mem aka "toots"
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 2341
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 11:14 am: |
|
I know about the kids left at the library at Baker. I went there once at 7:30 pm and this kid was on the steps crying her little eyes out, and I tried to help but she was hysterical, then her mom showed up with some young gangsta type boyfriend, cursed me out and then smacked the little girl right out in front of the library - my heart broke - I wanted to adopt this girl on the spot.
Anyway, I know this is just one incident, but I've seen the amount of kids just left there after school, and I think the town should have rules about the NOT abusing the library for this purpose. When you choose to have a child, you also choose to take on a lot of responsibility, which shouldn't include abandoning your child every day after school.
And guess what - good chance this kid will grow up and disrespect authority as well - perpetuating this type of situation.
|
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 194
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 11:27 am: |
|
The putative money argument from some parents for lack of afterschool care is often bullsh*t.
It's what you choose to spend money on, and some facilities have sliding scale fees. I'm in a 2-working-parents family, and we're far from loaded. I drive an old car, and I pay for both before and after school care for our 10 year old. She doesn't hang around on the school grounds for a half-hour before school while I go make a train -- she's inside, paid supervision. Same with after school. I will do so in middle school as well, and based on what I'm seeing around here, I may arrange for someone to be in the house when she's in high school (more danger to her from peer pressure, than what she might get up to). This is part of what I signed up for when I chose to be a parent -- not abandoning my kid to the community's care at the earliest opportunity. |
Kenney
Citizen
Username: Kenney
Post Number: 109
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 11:30 am: |
|
With all due respect, does anyone have a solution?
to all my thoughts, add to the end:
or not.
|
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 195
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 11:45 am: |
|
1. More required supervision at large school events. No loitering beyond 1/2 hour after conclusion. If the event sponsor, and parents of the players, don't provide an adequate ratio of supervisors, no game.
2. Enforce whatever laws exist regarding unsupervised minors on the streets, by day and night.
3. Enforce the library rules regarding noise, disruption and maximum occupancy -- including cell phone use. If the kids dont' leave when asked, call the cops.
Don't know the laws around here on public nuisance behavior, or minors, but should involve some level of fine to the parents if the police have to pick up their kid for violations.
I see little in the way of police downtown on Fri/Sat night. A friendly cop keeping an eye out could be useful.
I guess my thought run to rules and enforcement. This is primarily because I think parents know better, but won't get it until they answer for their children's behavior. Lectures that preach to the choir are of no use unless the choir starts feeling like a group willing to assert themselves as some sort of citizen watch. |
Rebecca Raines
Citizen
Username: Robin_realist
Post Number: 62
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 12:05 pm: |
|
I don't think there is an definitive answer. Society is always changing and we're struggling with it. Trying not to be too judgemental, trying set a balance between accepting, adapting and pushing back so it's still our community and we feel safe and comfortable in it.
I think this is a parenting issue. We're just seeing the symptoms of it. Education is important to help people understand why leaving their kids to fend for themselves for hours isn't good. Maybe they were left this way and think they turned out pretty good.
Deterrents can help with symptoms but don't change attitudes. For example: Irvington Library closes for an hour just as school lets out. This forces kids to go on or hang around for an hour waiting for it to reopen. Kids who can't go home just go hang around someplace else. For us some might go downtown for an hour then come back. In the meantime, kids who really need the library can't get in. No solution in my mind.
I still think parents should go to the sporting events. Are they encouraged to be there? Do they realize that these events can be really rowdy? How many school staff are assigned? Is the school security guard staff there? I think they should be. R
|
mellie
Citizen
Username: Mellie
Post Number: 369
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 2:49 pm: |
|
Burchie wrote" The level of threat is in the eye of the beholder."
Funny, in the workplace if someone says or does something to you that you perceive as sexual harrassment, then it is harrassment. in other words of you perceive it as a threat, it is a threat.
so why are you apologizing for the perp burchie ?
|
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 3932
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 3:41 pm: |
|
Basically, while in what still is, barely, a middle class community I don't think all people over 30 should have to take a course in interacting with rowdy, in many cases minority, children, I don't think want went on after the basketball game all that bad. Yes fifty, or however many, kids milling around isn't the worst thing that has happened here. Private property rights were ignored and bad language was used, but still this wasn't a gang fight or even a riot. |
mtierney
Citizen
Username: Mtierney
Post Number: 436
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 5:18 pm: |
|
When my kids were in elementary school here everybody went home for lunch. When it became obvious that there were "latch-key" kids, those who went home for lunch in an unattended house, the PTA took action.
Thus the first lunch program took hold. Kids were permitted to bring brown bag lunches to school as a safe alternative.
It was primitive! PTA volunteers supervised the children in the auditorium where they ate their lunches. There was an opportunity for outside activities, weather permitting.
As the number of kids grew with more and more mothers going to work full time, the PTA began the political battle to get funding from the BOE! What a joke! It took years to convince them that the PTA was responding to a real need in the community. The teachers were very hostile to the concept of joining the supervision. Eventually "attendants" were hired at minimum wage to cover the lunch periods.
It all sounds like the dark ages I know, but I bring it up here for a reason. Sometimes action needs to be taken by parents who recognize a problem and work toward a solution.
My earlier query as to why the school library could not provide a safe, supervised place for kids to do homework while they wait for rides home was met with an instant "where would the money come from?"
Maybe parents can show a way.
|
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1204
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 6:21 pm: |
|
Yes, clothes and deportment matter to an extent. Recognize that kids are figuring out who they are, so they try different images. They way they are outwardly is not necessarily the way they feel inside, or is it the way they will eventually be.
I do talk to my girls about my values, and I deplore the overly sexy looks some girls and public figures (pun intended) have. They seem to agree with me for the time being. If they start dressing sexy, I will have a decision to make. I don't know how I'll respond. I believe in choosing your battles carefully, and this one may or may not be worth fighting. Remember, kids use image to anger or shock their parents. Too much parental resistance can make them dig in their heels. Purple hair was pretty shocking when I was in high school.
As for the tough look in boys, I suppose I should tell my daughters about how I feel about that, too. I wonder what they think.
I don't have a say in how other people's kids look. I try to keep an open mind. Just because some look like gangsters doesn't mean they are. It's like the racial prejudicial tendencies. Someone looks like someone who did me harm, but that doesn't necessarily mean I should be afraid. We do have our reactions, and that's natural, but we should question them, too.
Tom Reingold
There is nothing
|
mamatamu
Citizen
Username: Mamatamu
Post Number: 25
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 7:21 pm: |
|
look at the very drunk teenagers post.
Now, that's intimidating!
Where were their parents?
And the train isn't really a public place.
|
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 197
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 8:27 am: |
|
Absolutely agree with you, mamatamu, on your comments on the train incident. The issue isn't limited to any one community.
Lack of after school and evening supervision is a problem. Yesterday, while fighting traffic downtown to pick up a turkey, I saw the after school crowds on Maplewood Avenue. For the most part, no biggie -- though I was surprised to see so many kids just hanging out. My last town was more spread out so most kids took the bus home to housing developments.
Anyway, I saw a couple of boys working on knocking down/pulling up those wooden posts that hold up the rope-like fencing around the Dickens' houses. In the daylight, downtown. My comment isn't about a physically scarey thing, but it is about how freely some kids destroy/deface public property when unsupervised. Where was a cop? Or town official, or storekeeper telling that kid to stop it? I presume the town pays someone to put that stuff up, and maintain it.
For what it's worth, the one kid was white and the other appeared Asian with a dyed Mohawk. Both looked 13/14. To me, the fact that they felt comfortable engaged in an act of vandalism in broad daylight, downtown, in public says a lot.
Where are the parents, and where are the values? |
Duncan
Citizen
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 1209
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 8:39 am: |
|
It takes a village. Hokey. But the erosion of these values are made possible by all the other folks who saw what you saw and did nothing, including yourself. It takes an effort to enact change and if this sort of behavior is so troubling to you, which it clearly is, a few minutes to walk over and say "hey guys leave off" or some other better chosen phrase would be a start. I appreciate your reluctance to get involved with the group at the MMS that started this thread, but here was an opportunity to make a difference. I imagine you were probably in a hurry or with your kid, but if you couldnt directly intervene then a call to 762-1234 our local cops with the same description you provided here would have at least been a step. Pretty soon you have to engage this or stop complaining.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"
Wayne Gretzky
|
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 198
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 8:53 am: |
|
You are right, Duncan, but I was in the car with my kid and one could barely drive (near misses abounded among cars) and I don't use a cell phone while driving. And I didn't even know the number for the police had I the phone.
I guess I'm still trying to figure out what the cultural norms are. And it does seem to me that if it is usual to have such crowds on the main drag after school, there probably should be some level of friendly cop walking the street at that time. Given the location of the act, I was a tad surprised that someone at Burgdorff or one of the stores at that end didn't notice, too. Maybe they did. I was, as I said, trying to negotiate the traffic. My point was less the particular case, than its possible symbolic value for what seems to be tolerated. |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 199
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 9:06 am: |
|
And, BTW, I do engage. I joined the PTA, I show up and help at events, and support teachers at Clinton as they try new approaches to enhanced civility in the classroom. I chose to do that rather than blow smoke endlessly in the Education thread.
For me, even starting this thread, was an expression of stupefaction that lack of adult supervision, and scarey crowd behavior seemed so tolerated. In my original posting, it was the librarians' comments that put me over the edge, sort of "there's nothing we can do...."
|
mamatamu
Citizen
Username: Mamatamu
Post Number: 27
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 10:46 am: |
|
Going back to Monday night:
I was there, I attended the Basketball game since I do go to MMS.
Yeah, there was a fight, no big deal to me since there's one almost every other week. But the fact is that, they FORCED everyone who was watching the game out of Gym which caused all that drama. Maybe, that is why you saw all these "African-American" preteens hanging around because they didn't know where to go. I know you'll wonder, "Why didn't they just go home?". Well maybe because they told their parents that they'll call or arrive home at 9. OR because they wanted to hang out, without any trouble.
Cynicalgirl:
You had no reason to be scared. It was just a bunch of 7th and 8th graders. A couple of 9th graders who recently graduated. From a black SEVENTH grader's point of view, I think that you were just scared because a majority of them were black. I knew about 85% of those people and most them don't hurt anyone unless they're forced. But if you were THAT terrified, why did you even enter the library?
Thank god I was not inside that crowd, my friends and I had enough sense to just go to the quiet little village and avoid trouble.I saw how some of the people tried to leave the area and walk up towards Springfield Ave. where most of them live.
A group of eighth graders I knew turned around and walked back to the library,in an attempt to escape police officers. But, I guess it didn't work.
BTW...in case you didn't know...this is her daughter. Obviously, I was there,I did not see any threat, I just saw a bunch of preteens trying to figure out where to go.
|
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 3936
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 11:24 am: |
|
Ok, now I am really confused.
Mamatamu, did you write this in your daughter's "voice"? Somehow I think you are to old to be a MMS student. 
It appears that once the fight broke out, the people running the game closed the gym. Is this the case?
Why did the kids heading to SA feel they had to return to the library area? Are they that afraid of the police? Are the police so stupid as not to let them disperse?
Are there fights at the Suburban League games on a regular basis? If so, why aren't the games closed to spectators?
Why did the kids go into yards and sit on, and presumably damage cars? This is pretty much the only part of what happened that bothers me. |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 200
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 11:55 am: |
|
mamatamu's daughter, many were loud, swearing, and not responding to the police. I saw at least two police cars, and I overheard one child talking about the rescue squad coming. And there'd been both a violent incident in the nearby park recently, and talk of gangs. I considered whether or not to go into the library, but chose to in part because I didn't want my kid to see me respond to my fear.
Many of the kids were closer to adult size, so it was hard to tell age.
Had they been all white, or a more mixed crowd, but behaving the same, I would've been scared, too. Unruly, loud bunches of young people not adequately supervised are often up to bad things. And some were. By your own admission, there's fights every other game. Perhaps you and your friends should work on shunning or marginalizing the troublemakers and folks would not have the perceptions that they do. Or push for more adult supervision to keep the weirdness down. If the behavior doesn't get under control, the unfortunate possible outcome is that the activity could be shut down. |
Diversity Man
Citizen
Username: Deadwhitemale
Post Number: 524
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 12:29 pm: |
|
True, but, you are asking for parents to act forcefully, and responsibly.
It is obvious the problem is that the rules of the game have changed.
It is now: to be judgemental is to err, to be permissive is divine.
DWM |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 201
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 12:41 pm: |
|
While stuffing our turkey, I remembered something a friend who taught middle school for decades told me. I asked her why the emphasis on rules about dress, time in the hall, etc. All the petty stuff we hated as kids. This friend had taught in a range of public and Catholic schools. Anyway, her wry remark was that, psychologically, if you focus the kids on rebelling against the little stuff (name on the right place on the paper, length of skirt, etc.) they'll be less inclined to err on the bigger issues. Sort of a slippery slope point of view wherein she felt it developmentally wise to focus on the the little issues.
I rather wonder if she isn't right. Maybe it's like the broken windows' theory about neighborhoods. Sort of a when you let the little issues go, the big ones take over?
Anyway, just a thought. I know when I was in jr high school we raged endlessly on dress code issues, which were strictly enforced, and whether or not we had the right to opt out of saying the Pledge of Allegience. This against the backdrop of the Viet Nam War seemed insufferably petty. But, we didn't have many fights, and certainly no guns in the school, and we did get sent home for over short skirts and mouthing off at the teacher...Rebellion came later, and more politically. And most parents were on the side of the school, and the police, even if they thought some of each were idiots, because it kept an order where the adults were in charge and there were repercussions for bad behavior. |
mamatamu
Citizen
Username: Mamatamu
Post Number: 28
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 1:26 pm: |
|
Mamatamu, did you write this in your daughter's "voice"? Somehow I think you are to old to be a MMS student.
LOL. No, this is her daughter Tamu.
It appears that once the fight broke out, the people running the game closed the gym. Is this the case?
Well it's somewhat the case. The girl who started the fight was fighting with the adults. So they decided to kick everyone out of the gym except the players. (Maplewood won the game  )
So when everyone finally got out, the 3 or 5 police cars showed up and booted everyone out of the school parking lot. That is why they were on the sidewalks and corner.
Why did the kids heading to SA feel they had to return to the library area? Are they that afraid of the police? Are the police so stupid as not to let them disperse?
Well, they didn't go ALL the way, they went at least to the corner up the street, crossed, and came back. Are they that afraid of the police? No, I don't think so, but I think they were more afraid of getting arrested than the officers themselves.
Are the police so stupid as not to let them disperse?
Um...to me, the police were more worried about the breaking out of fights and vandalism of property.
Are there fights at the Suburban League games on a regular basis? If so, why aren't the games closed to spectators?
It was my first time to a Suburban League game so I have no idea. But the main reason WHY the fight broke out was because of South Orange. Since it was a South Orange person who started fighting. The games should be open to the school students and their parents, but if Columbia students are there then its a bigger situation.
Why did the kids go into yards and sit on, and presumably damage cars?
As far as I know,the yard across the street that the kids were hanging out on....most of them know the person. Everyday after school I see the guy who owns the house stand outside and talk to the boys. Maybe he's a coach or something.
But, what was really strange about the whole thing is that these Police offices rolled up and started checking the people with flashlights (possibly looking for weapons).
Happy Thanksgiving...} |
|
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page