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Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1363
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 10:44 am: | 
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Who, me, excusing whom? I think you misunderstand me. I'm pretty anti-interventionist.
Tom Reingold
There is nothing
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cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 549
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 11:15 am: |
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As for supporting Saddam during the Cold War, that was a time where the USSR and the US played "pick your dictator" to offset each other. (Easier for a government that starved millions of their own people than say, the US). It happened on every continent save N. America and Australia. The Cold War is now over.
As for invading countries that already have nuclear capabilities, I think you see the tactical stupidity of doing that. If you're talking about Iran -- the population is uneasy and the political situation is in flux where the mad mullahs are not all that popular. The US is active there, just not militarily. Iran is surrounded -- Russia, Afghanistan, Iraq and Turkey. Also, I don't recall any mass killings in Iran, but I could be wrong.
The point, my friend ashear, is that the requirements for invasion of Iraq exist for all the principled leftists out there. And why don't they support invasion? Because Bush is president, and not Clinton or Gore.
Ask yourself, ashear -- are you concerned or inquisitive about the cost and exit strategy of Iraq AND the Balkans -- because we remain in both places -- or is it just Iraq you want answers to? and why?
If you say "because we're losing lives", perhaps you would only enter wars where no US lives are lost? That is unrealistic.
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Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1366
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 11:22 am: |
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cjc, have you been reading Ann Coulter or her ilk? You stick to the belief that there are two types of political beliefs and that everyone is soundly in one of those categories. You cast beliefs onto liberals because they are liberals. You will find what you are looking for, which in this case, is people who don't think.
Tom Reingold
There is nothing
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cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 550
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 11:39 am: |
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Tom...for the sake of discussion, I use those two sides. I know there are some liberals who are behind this war in Iraq. VERY few, but some. So I know there are exceptions.
What, Tom, is the predominant position on this war from liberals? That's the one I'm taking, unless you know something I don't.
I know -- very much in New Jersey -- there are moderates, middle of the roaders or 'independents.' But what is the position of a moderate? what is their party? what is there platform? There is none -- so who cares in terms of political debate? they'll sit on the sidelines, hopefully listen, add a notion here or there and make up their minds if they have one. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4025
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 1:40 pm: |
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This is hilarious. I don't think Bush and Company ever mentioned Saddam's civil rights record during the build up for the war. It was all about WMD and terrorism. At best the genocide issue was a byproduct, much like wood chips in a lumber factory.
Be real, we supported him, and other tyrants, in the past and probably would support him and his regime now if he had played his cards right over the last ten to twelve years.
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cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 555
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 2:03 pm: |
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Yes he did mention humanitarian abuses, and Bush pointedly used the same language CLinton used to justify bombing in 1998. Try as you might to make it so, reality is alluding you. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4026
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 2:09 pm: |
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Was that number nine or number ten on his list of reasons to invade Iran? Now, CJC, this seems to be all you talk about.
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Sylad
Citizen
Username: Sylad
Post Number: 85
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 6:56 pm: |
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In a message dated 12/9/2003 10:57:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, MARNIECAYE68 writes:
Subject: Our Commander in Chief - Sent from an Army Captain in Iraq
We knew there was a dinner planned with Ambassador Bremer and LTG Sanchez. There were 600 seats available and all the units in the division were tasked with filling a few tables. Naturally, the 501st MI battalion got our table.
Soldiers were grumbling about having to sit through another dog-and-pony show, so we had to pick soldiers to attend. I chose not to go. But, about 1500 the G2, LTC Devan, came up to me and with a smile, asked me to come to dinner with him, to meet him in his office at 1600 and bring a camera. I didn't really care about getting a picture with Sanchez or Bremer, but when the division's senior intelligence officer asks you to go, you go.
We were seated in the chow hall, fully decorated for Thanksgiving when aaaaallllll kinds of secret service guys showed up. That was my first clue, because Bremer's been here before and his personal security detachment is not that big.
Then BG Dempsey got up to speak, and he welcomed ambassador Bremer and LTG Sanchez. Bremer thanked us all and pulled out a piece of paper as if to give a speech. He mentioned that the President had given him this thanksgiving speech to give to the troops. He then paused and said that the senior man present should be the one to give it. He then looked at Sanchez, who just smiled. Bremer then said that we should probably get someone more senior to read the speech.
Then, from behind the camouflage netting, the President of the United States came around. The mess hall actually erupted with hollering. Troops bounded to their feet with shocked smiles and just began cheering with all their hearts. The building actually shook. It was just unreal. I was absolutely stunned. Not only for the obvious, but also because I was only two tables away from the podium. There he stood, less than thirty feet away
from me! The cheering went on and on and on. Soldiers were hollering, cheering, and a lot of them were crying. There was not a dry eye at my table. When he stepped up to the cheering, I could clearly see tears running down his cheeks. It was the most surreal moment I've had in years. Not since my wedding and Aaron being born. Here was this man, our President, came all the way around the world, spending 17 hours on an airplane and landing in the most dangerous airport in the world, where a plane was shot out of the sky not six days before. Just to spend two hours with his troops. Only to get on a plane and spend another 17 hours flying back. It was a great moment, and I will never forget it.
He delivered his speech, which we all loved, when he looked right at me and held his eyes on me. Then he stepped down and was just mobbed by the soldiers. He slowly worked his way all the way around the chow hall and shook every last hand extended. Every soldier who wanted a photo with the President got one. I made my way through the line, got dinner, then wolfed it down as he was still working the room. You could tell he was really enjoying himself. It wasn't just a photo opportunity. This man was actually enjoying himself! He worked his way over the course of about 90 minutes towards my side of the room.
Meanwhile, I took the opportunity to shake a few hands. I got a picture with Ambassador Bremer, Talabani (acting Iraqi president) and Achmed Chalabi (another member of the ruling council) and Condaleeza Rice, who was there with him. I felt like I was drunk.
He was getting closer to my table so I went back over to my seat. As he passed and posed for photos, he looked me in the eye and said, "How you doin', captain." I smiled and said "God bless you, sir." To which he responded: "I'm proud of what you do, captain." Then moved on.
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cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 558
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 11:19 am: |
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Sylad, where did you find this letter? |
Sylad
Citizen
Username: Sylad
Post Number: 86
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 8:36 pm: |
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Sent to me from a friend, he got it directly from the Captain who wrote it |
JJC
Citizen
Username: Mercury
Post Number: 143
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 9:14 am: |
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Does this sound like another one of the PR letters that were going around a couple of months ago? |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 1951
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 10:11 am: |
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JJC,
I would think that the troops genuinely appreciated having the President pay them a visit. I believe that Bush is a decent man.
Now, as for his policies, well that is a different issue. |
JJC
Citizen
Username: Mercury
Post Number: 144
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 11:26 am: |
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Agreed. But that's not what I asked. |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 1953
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 11:34 am: |
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It's hard to tell. What with the Pearl Harbor, Kennedy assasination and lunar landing conspiracies, I just don't know what to believe any more. |
Duncan
Citizen
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 1298
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 11:39 am: |
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According to Snopes its for real..
http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/thanksgiving.asp
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"
Wayne Gretzky
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cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 570
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 12:46 pm: |
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Yes. It's suspicious on it's face because it offers implied praise for the president. |
JJC
Citizen
Username: Mercury
Post Number: 145
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 1:23 pm: |
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I think it's wonderful that the prez visited the troops. Hooray! Now bring them home. However, last time we saw letters from the troops show up in newspapers/internet it turned out to be an orchestrated PR effort. That's where my (perhaps misplaced) suspicion comes from. |
JJC
Citizen
Username: Mercury
Post Number: 146
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 6:31 pm: |
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Chehttp://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A57870-2003Dec11 |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 18
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 12:51 am: |
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The undisputable bottom line on the Iraq war is this:
We were in the middle of fighting a war against forces in Afghanistan that harbored and supported the group who attacked us on 9/11. We dropped that war to pick up another one. There is no excuse...NONE...for turning away from the pursuit of bin Laden and al Qaeda. They are America's #1 enemy. We don't have to speculate whether they might attack us, or if they have the means (boxcutters) to do it. Since we turned our back on Afghanistan, the Taliban is back in power. Now that Iraq is in such a shambles, we've essentially created a second Afghanistan, ripe for fundamentalist warlords to take over once Bush brings home the troops for election day. Al Gore was right...the Iraq invasion is the biggest foreign policy mistake in American history.
I believe we should go to war when it's in our interests. It is arguable that Saddam was a threat to America, but it is not arguable that bin Laden was, and, thanks to Bush, still is. We let him get away so Halliburton could overcharge us for gasoline. That's why Bush has go to go. |
Ukealalio
Citizen
Username: Ukealalio
Post Number: 251
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 9:04 am: |
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Madden 11, yes there is an excuse for turning away from the pursuit of Bin Laden, it's called the Carlyle Group (the Bush family's business venture with a bunch of "Folks" called Bin-Laden). I can realistically see the conversation going something like this, "Look George he's our family member and we know how to take care of him. We will take care of Osama and you get rid of that maniac Sadaamm. There's a lot of money to be made here,don't blow it. Oh yea tell Cheney his board members will be real happy with all these contracts that we will fix for them". |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 1660
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 9:21 am: |
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cjc, if it's suspicious is the administration's fault for planting false letters earlier. That's the risk they took. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 575
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 15, 2003 - 9:37 am: |
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if Clinton could pull off simultaneous missions with the military, then Bush should be able to as well. we haven't left Afghanistan....they're meeting for a constitutional convention and I'll bet they pass one before the EU does.....and terror work continues. If the UN or NATO gets it's act together and adds to the security forces there -- it would help.
But don't wait for the UN or NATO to help. Even if we 'made up' with this international body of worthlessness, you still won't get what you need from them.
Try again with your potshots. |
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