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Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 318
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 1:56 pm: | 
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cjc,
Also, I'm not sure if you have data to back up your claim that Democratic voters are especially "uninformed," but there is empirical evidence to suggest that Bush supporters are more likely than Democratic supporters to be "misinformed" (at least with regard to Iraq).
http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Iraq/Media_10_02_03_Report.pdf
If you've got data, other than "go on the streets of NY and ask man on the street questions," I'd love to see it. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 1592
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 2:04 pm: |
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As for Rush being a hypocrite, all he has to do is admit he was hypocritical. He doesn't have to blame it one anyone else, he doesn't have to say right is wrong, or red is green.
What he does need is to come clean on the fact that while he espoused one set of principles he was living by another. This includes calling for very, very strict punishments for drug users while being satisfied with taking a lesser punishment for himself. |
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1248
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 2:06 pm: |
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seriously, cjc, you seem very eager to paint people with an extremely broad brush. Sometimes, which side you're on isn't the most important thing. At least, that's how I feel.
Tom Reingold
There is nothing
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Kenney
Citizen
Username: Kenney
Post Number: 127
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 2:07 pm: |
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One of the reasons behind impeding education reform is a belief by democratic leaders they would lose their voting base. why else would they be against giving vouchers to inner city kids?
The unwritten and unsaid campaign slogan by dem's, "Keep em dumb so they will continue to vote for us."
to all my thoughts, add to the end:
or not.
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tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 1595
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 2:16 pm: |
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How about resolving that by unionizing private and parochial school staffs? Takes the union issue right off the table, and makes the debate about quality of education again.
Or not. |
Kenney
Citizen
Username: Kenney
Post Number: 128
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 2:25 pm: |
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unionize private and parochial school staffs??
typical altruistic response--tear down whats good to make it equal with whats not.
to all my thoughts, add to the end:
or not.
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Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1249
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 2:36 pm: |
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Kenney, it's usually safer to assume simple reasons for things. They right more often than the convoluted things.
I can think of a good reason and a bad reason. The good reason is that it will take away funding from those who need it. Public schools probably have economy of scale that small organizations don't have. Though it may cost $8,000 per student to educate a district, the marginal cost per student is much less. Taking out all or just some of a student's portion of the overal budget causes the school district to shrink, which takes away from core services. This affects everyone.
Also, this sort of budget pressure might land on kids with special needs, including the handicapped, the slow and the gifted. Private schools, funded by tuition or vouchers, don't have to take in anyone. An decreased school district, left with only the expensive students, leaves the remaining kids far worse off.
Of course, the cynical side is that teachers and administrators hate the idea of their organization and jobs being threatened, so it's natural that they would speak out against vouchers. But I suspect vouchers are a bad idea, so I don't mind that they are speaking for their self interests, even if they are claiming to speak for the kids. Actually, I give them credit, because I believe they also have the students' interests at heart. But I do know enough that people look after their own interests, too.
As for Democrats afraid of losing votes, my opinion is the opposite of yours. I believe that a larger percentage of Republicans vote than Democrats and potential Democrats. Therefore, getting out the votes of less educated people would yield more votes for Democrats.
Tom Reingold
There is nothing
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drewdix
Citizen
Username: Drewdix
Post Number: 397
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 2:45 pm: |
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Liberal talk radio misses the point that Rush has taken---it has to be entertaining. Cuomo, Jerry Brown, Dershowitz--all haven't worked. They're just not fun to listen to. Not even fun to hate, I guess, because I'm sure Rush has alot of listeners from the left.
So cjc's point about talent (radio talent, that is--not necc. intellectual talent), while a bit heavyhanded, probably isn't inaccurate. Rush-man's personality and "talent" are a good fit for radio.
But, and I paraphrase Jon Margolis, Rush et al simply cater to audience's social resentments. Their assaults are sometimes a chuckle, and sometimes on target but rarely analytical. They just assail their liberal enemies, without much time on actual discourse (does Rush ever have a guest on the show? No- for a good reason. could be wrong here but I doubt it).
Reminds you of a good hellfire & brimstone preacher; but hey--those guys are good.
Good radio? If you want it, tune it in.
Back in March, the Atlanta radio exec. Jon Sinton (who launched Hightower's show) was trying another effort..not sure if it developed. I think it's a great untapped market...if they find someone as "entertaining" as Rush-man, and avoid Rush-man's philosophy on content.
Other reasons for liberal talk radio emptiness:
The Rushes are all argument and comparison; liberals are kumbaya/feelings (not great radio).
and maybe cjc's point that the media is liberal-bent, so talk is the only haven for conservative views is the Rushes.
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cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 505
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 2:46 pm: |
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Tom...I agree. If the ignorant stay home, democrats lose.
Boogie -- the final report on what Saddam did or didn't do hasn't been entirely written, though some have already proclaimed they know the answers.
tom...Rush has said just that -- saying he knew he was doing the wrong thing but his addiction wouldn't allow him to beat it. He tried twice in 24-hour detox -- but that's rarely successful, and wasn't for him.
As for strict punishment, he stands by what he has said and will take his chances in a court of law, without blaming anyone but himself.
Unions and lack of competition kill productivity and results. Give vouchers a chance. There's school choice right now -- but the poor aren't able to practise it -- and many want that to remain the case. |
Redsox
Citizen
Username: Redsox
Post Number: 375
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 2:56 pm: |
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unionize parochial schools?- nuns, brothers & priests bargaining with the archdiocese- i don't think so.....
there are voucheresque programs already in place for the connected & selective few, but widespread voucher program will never be.... |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 1596
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 3:09 pm: |
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You're right, it wouldn't work for Catholic schools. But if voucher use took off the way its advocates expect it will, look for a vast migration of well-paid, well-benefitted public school teachers into lower-paid, lower-benefitted private schools. Naturally, that's where the students will be.
Teachers make an inadequate living now. When it gets worse, even fewer qualified graduates will choose it for a profession. Where does this leave us? |
Kenney
Citizen
Username: Kenney
Post Number: 129
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 3:09 pm: |
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Right wing radio came alive because of the bad start by Clinton and continued because of the impeachment mess.
The tax hike(on top of Bush 1's), gays in the military, and socialized medicine pissed people off and helped launched Rush and Co.
Then came the contract and Newt, which was a very positive message. They promised 10 very popular bills and had the nerve to actually deliver on their promise(this will never happen again)...
Then impeachment, which became more about hate and less about policy.
Left radio will only work if there are issues to support it. What are these issues? Pull out of Iraq or Stay in Iraq but do it better?? nothing much to rail against..
to all my thoughts, add to the end:
or not.
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lumpyhead
Citizen
Username: Lumpyhead
Post Number: 546
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 3:24 pm: |
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Liberals already have a voice much bigger and broader than Fox News or talk radio. It's called NBC, ABC, CBS, NY Times, Boston Globe, LA Times all their news anchors and editors. Just turn on the nightly news! |
Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 5771
Registered: 4-1998
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 3:28 pm: |
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lumpyhead
Citizen
Username: Lumpyhead
Post Number: 547
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 3:49 pm: |
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Pick the one you like:
1) President Bush's long awaited Prescription Drug plan, which is backed by the AARP, has passed in the Senate. The plan will finally give Senior citizens the benefits they have been waiting for.
2) After much debate, President Bush's complicated prescription drug plan has passed in the senate. Largely due to support by AARP, a vocal group that the Republicans have been courting. The plan will still leave most seniors with higher out of pocket costs.
Words are powerful. |
strawberry
Citizen
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 1512
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 5:13 pm: |
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liberals have found their voice??
"That moment has directly affected my foreign policy. See, it changed the nature of the presidency. It changed the security arrangements of the United States of America. I vowed to the American people I would never forget the lessons of September the 11th, 2001."
--President George W. Bush
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mtierney
Citizen
Username: Mtierney
Post Number: 442
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 5:14 pm: |
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Did anyone but me notice that "The Week in Review" section of Sunday's NYTimes did not make one reference to Bush's visit to Iraq? I reread the section twice and the only reference was a not-so-funny editorial cartoon.How did the editors decide this was not a note-worthy event from the past week?
Another example of liberal manipulation (although properly made on the editorial page) was the extremely lengthy editorial on abortion. The writer took great pains to avoid using the appellation "pro-life" - liberals decided sometime ago to ignore the name regardless of how the pro-life groups feel - instead they use "opponents of reproductive rights!" Now there's a headline grabber!
Why the fear of using the word "life"? What other group gets a name-change? |
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 2497
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 5:28 pm: |
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The Week in Review had a picture of the President in Iraq (with turkey platter) on the front page (lower right-hand corner), and a discussion of his trip in the article on page 1, and another short item on page 2.
Any perceived "liberal slant" was counter-balanced by the prominent placement of a Charles "Bell Curve" Murray essay.
An inane, pointless essay by an intellectual fraud and crypto-racist, as well as an inappropriate boost to his latest piece of pseudo-scholarship which (surprise!) will seek to establish that white people (preferably the Northern European variety) are the source of all good.
Not that I have a strong opinion regarding Mr. Murray, or anything like that ... |
JJC
Citizen
Username: Mercury
Post Number: 121
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 5:31 pm: |
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Mt - not sure what you were looking for. Week in Review is generally analysis. Did you need the NYT to explain something about serving Turkey to the troops? I think most of us got the message. Not terribly complicated. |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 320
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 2, 2003 - 10:46 pm: |
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How "liberal" can the NY Times really be when Safire and Brooks have regular columns?
Any possibility the NY Post will respond in kind and put Molly Ivins or Joe Conason on their editorial page? |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 506
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 3, 2003 - 9:07 am: |
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Nohero and Boogie -- not even close. Week in Analysis is total opinion, as is the op-ed page. We're not talking about editorials here --- conservative or liberal. What people on my side object to is the editorializing that comes in news stories that are on the front page of the paper. Like when the NYT puts "News Analysis" on their front page instead of the back -- the most egregious example.
Conservatives just want to know what happened and who said what. We can make up our own minds. If I want someone else's opinion, I'll ask or look for it. |
drewdix
Citizen
Username: Drewdix
Post Number: 399
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 3, 2003 - 10:38 am: |
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Get the news, make up our own minds.
Funny- that's just what us liberals want too.
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lumpyhead
Citizen
Username: Lumpyhead
Post Number: 549
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 3, 2003 - 11:26 am: |
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Exactly. Leaving out pertinant details of a story or using partial quotes taken out of context is misleading. Both sides do it. Thankfully there are many varied sources to get information to enable you to make up your own mind. |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 321
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 3, 2003 - 11:40 am: |
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actually cjc,
we were talking editorial pages in response to mtierney's post.
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Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 5782
Registered: 4-1998
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 3, 2003 - 11:51 am: |
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Anyone interested in comparing front pages of daily newspapers throughout the world, here's the link. |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 322
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 3, 2003 - 11:57 am: |
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Thanks Dave. If anyone wants to see what "liberal bias" really looks like, check out some of the UK tabloids. Makes the NY Times look like the stuffy old pseudo-libs they really are. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 510
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 3, 2003 - 12:03 pm: |
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drewdix -- really? So, you yourself bristle at the sniffling delivery of Peter Jennings and throw up your hands at the NY Times front page? |
JJC
Citizen
Username: Mercury
Post Number: 122
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 3, 2003 - 2:15 pm: |
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I think what he was alluding to was try to take in information from across the spectrum and then think for yourself. That is opposite to what we see most of the time here - half truths, emotional rather than factual posts and arguement for the sake of arguement. |
drewdix
Citizen
Username: Drewdix
Post Number: 403
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 3, 2003 - 2:32 pm: |
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If you think conservative's (or liberal's) sources and outlets are "just what happened and who said what", I gotta chuckle.
You don't think the WSJ op-eds telling you whose fault everything is (Clinton's), and Rush-man preaching "my friends, these people are trying to xyz you" (not a news guy, I know, but talk about bias + people not thinking for themselves), and the NY Sun's incredibly biased columns are "just what happened and who said what"?
Show me a paper without an opinion (left, right or center) and I'll show you a paper that has 0 readers.
And the point about the UK is right on.
I feel like I can make up my own mind too. You see, it's not a conservative franchise.
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drewdix
Citizen
Username: Drewdix
Post Number: 405
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 3, 2003 - 2:39 pm: |
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...the secret is not to pooh-pooh the Liberal Times or the Conservative News on how they're not biased, but to read them both. And then make up your own mind, yes? |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 514
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 3, 2003 - 2:46 pm: |
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No...I don't.
The salient point of my response was you said just wanted the news and then you could make up your mind. I said that editorial opinions end up on the front page. This happens on the left and the right. I too don't have anything to do with Fox News (save Brit Hume's program -- the first half of it) as it too has editorial content suffused into the news WHICH I DON'T APPRECIATE.
SO.....as you now know what I think and no longer have to guess incorrectly....do you deplore ABC and the NY Times as you do the WSJ and the NY Sun, rather than take a knee-jerk reaction that for some reason I condone right-biased news reporting as "good"?
We're not talking columns here...it's news we're talking about, and opinion disguised as news.
Consistency is all I ask. |
lumpyhead
Citizen
Username: Lumpyhead
Post Number: 555
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 3, 2003 - 2:58 pm: |
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http://www.davekopel.com/Media/RMN/2002/Dailies%20shoot%20from%20hip,%20miss.htm
"At Appalachian Law School, in Grundy, Va., a failing law student used a gun to kill the dean, a professor and a student. Just before the killings began, the student met with Professor Dale Rubin, who tried to counsel the student, and who has written studies for the Independence Institute, where I serve as research director.
Many news reports explained that the killings were stopped when students confronted the killer. But hardly any mentioned the key fact of this confrontation: a law student ran to the parking lot, retrieved a handgun from his car, and re-entered the building to challenge the killer. When the killer saw the student's handgun, the killer surrendered.
On the Lexis-Nexis database of news articles, a search revealed 80 articles about the Grundy crime, only two of which mentioned the armed hero. On the Westlaw database, there were 112 articles about the crime, and only two mentioning how the crime was stopped.
A search of major television news Web sites found only MSNBC and FoxNews reported on the life-saving student with a handgun. The stories carried in the Post and the News (from The New York Times and the Associated Press) were among the large majority ignoring the hero.
The hero, Tracy Bridges, did get interviewe on the Today show. And The Wall Street Journal's online Opinion Journal does mention the defensive gun use.
Heroes get a lot of attention these days, except, it seems, when they perform the politically incorrect act of using a handgun to save lives."
PS. I don't like guns.
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Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1262
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 3, 2003 - 3:02 pm: |
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It's cliche, but the difference between liberals and conservatives is which rights they'll take away first. I don't like guns, either, but apparently, the statistics seem to show that gun ownership is a good deterrent to crime. I'm somewhat on the fence on this issue.
Tom Reingold
There is nothing
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drewdix
Citizen
Username: Drewdix
Post Number: 406
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 3, 2003 - 4:27 pm: |
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cjc
not trying to knee-jerk you.
yes I am, and can, read between the lines with both liberal and conservative "op-news".
Our difference is, I don't deplore either.
my point is, I think I'm being consistent when I say I don't get cranky about op-news. I expect it. Where does it not exist? To opine is human- very difficult to separate that element from a very difficult and human job. |
Marvin Gardens
Citizen
Username: Marvin_gardens
Post Number: 22
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 3, 2003 - 4:34 pm: |
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Yeah, but Tom, how is owning a gun, unloaded in a locked box on the top shelf of your closet a good deterrent to crime??? Unless you're wearing a holster like in the old West for everyone to see (Ooh, better not rob that guy) or have signs on your house that say "Premesis Protected By Smith & Wesson" I don't see how owning a gun deters crime.
_______________
Do Not Pass Go
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Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1263
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 3, 2003 - 4:43 pm: |
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Perhaps it wouldn't help in that state. I don't feel prepared to argue about the second amendment. Suffice it to say that I don't buy the usual leftist arguments against gun ownership. Still, I don't plan to own a gun myself. I just don't necessarily object to others owning their own.
In NJ, it's nearly moot anyway. Few are allowed.
Tom Reingold
There is nothing
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