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cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 523
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 5, 2003 - 9:11 am: | 
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Carping about how they're conducting the war is one thing, and the central issue of whether it was the right thing to do is quite another. That was the purpose of this thread. That you don't question and in fact blindly support wars that Clinton fought that didn't measure up to the scrutiny you apply to the war Bush is fighting shows your dissent to be hollow, partisan, or to be charitable -- just woefully misguided. |
Kenney
Citizen
Username: Kenney
Post Number: 155
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 5, 2003 - 9:11 am: |
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2 countries located in the heart of terrorism, liberated with little loss of life in record time..massive infrastructure being built, democratic governments being installed and recognized by other middle east countries.....miserable failure? yeah, o.k. keep trying(hoping??)...
The only limit to our realization of tomorrow will be our doubts of today..FDR..
Liberty, when it begins to take root, is a plant of rapid growth...G.W.
Everyone wants a voice in human freedom. There's a fire burning inside of all us...L.W.
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Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 289
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 5, 2003 - 1:23 pm: |
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Canada and Mexico, the two closest neighbors of the United States, and most closely aligned politically, both refused to support Bush's unilateral invasion of Iraq.
France and Germany, key nations within the European Union, also refused. The relatively few national governments that supported Bush did so over the strongly voiced objections of their citizens, who will make their opinions felt in the next elections.
The supporters of George A.W.O.L. Bush are really just small circle of American power worshippers, which is fortunate, since they are no friends of freedom for ordinary people.
Once again, it will fall to more honorable and courageous Americans to repair the damage that the deserter and his friends have done in their name. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 527
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 5, 2003 - 1:33 pm: |
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While there are groups who will give awards and honor for it, how much courage does it take to surrender? |
Kenney
Citizen
Username: Kenney
Post Number: 161
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 5, 2003 - 1:53 pm: |
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George A.W.O.L Bush....ever so witty sir monte...mind if i use that next time i have tea at the club?
The only limit to our realization of tomorrow will be our doubts of today..FDR..
Liberty, when it begins to take root, is a plant of rapid growth...G.W.
Everyone wants a voice in human freedom. There's a fire burning inside of all us...L.W.
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Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 116
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 5, 2003 - 2:14 pm: |
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Whether or not countries agreed with us on Iraq has nothing to do with how our democracy is viewed.
I have yet to hear anyone in Canada or Mexico or anywhere else for that matter disparage American Democracy in any way shape of form.
And as the 2000 election showed Bush's supporters include one half of the country... over 50 million people. I think there may just be some ordinary people in there. |
Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 291
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 5, 2003 - 4:56 pm: |
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You might be surprised by how people in other countries view the United States, where admiration for the country's accomplishments is usually tempered with a sense of disbelief and frustration with the behavior of its political leaders (a feeling shared by many Americans, really...)
From the outside, the U.S. is almost never seen as trustworthy or responsible, and three years of George A.W.O.L. Bush have made it a lot worse. He had a recent flash of common sense in dropping his illegal steel tariffs (a non-delusional moment, one might say), but who can say if it will last.
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llama
Citizen
Username: Llama
Post Number: 376
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, December 5, 2003 - 6:45 pm: |
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Shortly after 9/11 when everyone was saying how the world had changed, and how our lives would be very different from then on, I actually thought that our government was going to crack down on illegal aliens just like in the movies and raid kitchens and landscaping businesses. When it became evident that this wasn't going to happen, I realized the reason it couldn't is because our whole economy is dependant on this kind of "expoloitation," if not at home, overseas. It has gotten to the point where corporate America now exploit it's own employees and shareholders to turn a higher profit. It kind of put the whole 9/11 thing in perspective for me, and all the silly alerts, wars, proclamations of patriotism, freedom, and important criminal aprehensions are just for effect to keep the masses happy with what our government is "doing." We are obviously not willing to change our value system, and we have reaped what we have sewn, and it will continue until our values and policies change drastically, and never with force or violence. This country has become like a scheme, and something inevitabley has to give or it will cave in on itself.
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Redsox
Citizen
Username: Redsox
Post Number: 378
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, December 8, 2003 - 10:23 am: |
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yo llama,
what "value system" would that be....
and what would you change it with? |
Robert Lilly
Citizen
Username: Cowboy
Post Number: 177
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 9, 2003 - 1:45 pm: |
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Yes, please Llama, enlighten us as to the "value system" as you see it in our country.
Is it consistant? Diverse? What prey tell? |
mem aka "toots"
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 2371
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 9, 2003 - 1:51 pm: |
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"we have reaped what we have sewn"
Psychotic. Llama, why don't you move out of the US? Is it because no other country will have you?
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cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 542
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 9, 2003 - 1:55 pm: |
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Hey guys. I tried that with llama before, and got excoriated on this board for asking (actually, I demanded he/she lay out her foreign policy after ripping this Admin) for specifics.
To ask for that shows you're an intolerant bully. Stop. Stop at once. All opinions are valid. |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 350
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 9, 2003 - 2:33 pm: |
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you were "excoriated" for asking for specifics?
Gee cjc, I'd ask you for the specifics of that event, but... |
notehead
Citizen
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 780
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 9, 2003 - 2:50 pm: |
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Excoriated.
That's what you say when somebody asks what happened to the last chocolate chip cookie that was right there on the table next to the former Vice President just a minute ago. |
llama
Citizen
Username: Llama
Post Number: 379
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 9, 2003 - 7:27 pm: |
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Redsox, lilly, cjc, mem, etc... Wake up! FYI, I don't claim to have "all the answers" and nor should anyone else, but I do stand by my asserttion that that the Bush Administration is bringing our country in a terrible direction, and that many Americans have become a bunch of lazy, greedy, arrogant, ignorant, self serving morons who have no clue, and don't even care about what is going on outside thier bubble, and how what we do affects us and the rest of the world. Bush is their voice. And being an American does not mean you can't be critical when you see something in our country that you do not agree with, or think is wrong. When I am heckled by a bunch of folks like you it does make me especially proud as an American to stand up for what I believe.
Here's a little song for ya...which you're probably unaware has largely been mis-interpreted, and even exploited by republicans as a patriotic anthem.
Born In The USA
Born down in a dead man's town
The first kick I took was when I hit the ground
You end up like a dog that's been beat too much
Till you spend half your life just covering up
Born in the U. S. A
I was born in the U. S. A
I was born in the U. S. A
Born in the U. S. A
Got in a little hometown jam
So they put a rifle in my hand
Sent me off to a foreign land
To go and kill the yellow man
Born in the U. S. A
I was born in the U. S. A
I was born in the U. S. A
I was born in the U. S. A
Come back home to the refinery
Hiring man says "Son if it was up to me"
Went down to see my V. A man
He said "Son don't you understand now"
Had a brother at Khe Sang fighting off the Viet Cong
They're still there, he's all gone
He had a woman he loved in Saigon
I got a picture of him in her arms now
Down the shadow of the penitentiary
Out by the gas fires of the refinery
I'm ten years burning down the road
Nowhere to run, ain't got nowhere to go
Born in the U. S. A
I was born in the U. S. A
Born in the U. S. A
I'm a long gone daddy in the U. S. A
Born in the U. S. A
Born in the U. S. A
Born in the U. S. A
I'm a cool rocking daddy in the U. S. A
Bruce Springsteen |
Kenney
Citizen
Username: Kenney
Post Number: 174
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 8:16 am: |
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llama---michael moore??
The only limit to our realization of tomorrow will be our doubts of today..FDR..
Liberty, when it begins to take root, is a plant of rapid growth...G.W.
Everyone wants a voice in human freedom. There's a fire burning inside of all us...L.W.
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Kenney
Citizen
Username: Kenney
Post Number: 175
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 8:28 am: |
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llama writes,
"that many Americans have become a bunch of lazy, greedy, arrogant, ignorant, self serving morons who have no clue, and don't even care about what is going on outside thier bubble, and how what we do affects..."
No country even comes close to the U.S. economically--we are more productive, work longer hours, have a larger middle clase, the highest standard of living, the best medical system, the best universities, the greatest opportunity for entrepeneurs to create, and the most sound financial system.
Also, we system of governing that allows for citizen participation, a widespread and efficient charitable system, and the greatest military in the world that has just liberated 2 countries living in hell....unless you are comparing the U.S. to some fictional utopian society, nothing you have written makes any sense at all....
The only limit to our realization of tomorrow will be our doubts of today..FDR..
Liberty, when it begins to take root, is a plant of rapid growth...G.W.
Everyone wants a voice in human freedom. There's a fire burning inside of all us...L.W.
|
Ukealalio
Citizen
Username: Ukealalio
Post Number: 239
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 10:04 am: |
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I love when the GOP adopts "anthems" when they have no idea what the songs really mean ("Born in the USA, what a great idea, the kids love that Springsteen fella, lets go for it"). I remember when Oliver North's assistant (what was her name?), tried to get backstage to a Springsteen concert and Bruce told the guard, I'm not a Republican and strongly disagree with her and her bosses politics, I don't wanna see her". The Democrats have their share of faux pas but when the GOP does stuff like this, it really is funny.
Cmon now gang, lets here the standard reply," At least Republicans don't use women for humidors".
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Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 356
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 10:12 am: |
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The candidates' favorite songs. always good for a laugh. |
llama
Citizen
Username: Llama
Post Number: 380
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 4:19 pm: |
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Kenny,
Sorry, but Hitlers Germany probably would have had great ideals as you have illustrated for the US if he had succeeded any one were a Nazi, but that doesn't make it great.
We do have a great country, but people are losing touch with human values and the powerful people and corporations are taking advantage and we are veering out of control. Just look at what has happened to us! |
Kenney
Citizen
Username: Kenney
Post Number: 179
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 5:00 pm: |
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every year of my life from one source or another, I have heard how this country is going down the tubes...how we have lost our moral compass...how arrogant we have become...and on and on....
yeah yeah..here it is again...bush/u.s. compared to hitler/germany...do you realize what a male donkey you seem like when you reach for this most extreme and overused comparison? i guess not since you used it...anyway, you should seriously consider reading something other than Michael Moore.
The only limit to our realization of tomorrow will be our doubts of today..FDR..
Liberty, when it begins to take root, is a plant of rapid growth...G.W.
Everyone wants a voice in human freedom. There's a fire burning inside of all us...L.W.
|
llama
Citizen
Username: Llama
Post Number: 384
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 8:27 pm: |
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Kenny,
I do. But I don't just "go by the book, either." Personal observations and Life experience have their own merits, and teaches one the most meaningful lessons.
And I might suggest that you read Michael Moore's books and see some his films rather than passing judgment just by "reading the cover." You just might learn something. |
Insite
Citizen
Username: Insite
Post Number: 159
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 8:52 pm: |
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Llama writes: "I might suggest that you read Michael Moore's books and see some his films."  |
ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 1723
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 9:37 pm: |
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another innapropriate song choice....I remember W playing Father and Son by Cat Stevens at, I guess it was, the convention - the son lamenting that he does not want to be like his father!! |
llama
Citizen
Username: Llama
Post Number: 385
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 9:56 pm: |
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Insite is goofy! |
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