| Author |
Message |
    
kathy
Citizen
Username: Kathy
Post Number: 1021
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 5:29 pm: | 
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Tjohn, What are you referring to when you say "a voluntary choir or ensemble"? At the high school level choir, band and orchestra are classes for credit. Even at lower levels where chorus and band are more "voluntary", why should children have to opt in or out based on their comfort level with the repertoire, as opposed to their love of music? |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2789
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 7:40 pm: |
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To tell you the truth Kathy, resolutions such as the recent BOE pearl of wisdom make me feel as though my culture and traditions are under attack. However, luckily for the BOE and their supporters, I feel more threatened by certain Christians who insist that I will go to Hell if I don't follow their version of Christianity. Now, I say luckily purely from a political point of view. I am hardly going to doing anything more severe with regard to this issue than vote in the next election. In any case, I have been pleasantly surprised to note that despite all of the controversy, school for my children seems much like the school that I knew - of course, that might be totally superficial based on the fact that the physical plant hasn't changed in forty years. |
Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 1368
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 5:54 pm: |
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I haven't ever seen it Bob... at least not in a public school.
Every holiday concert I've ever been to (anf I've been to a lot) was basically tons of Christmas songs, a "non-Religious" selection or two (like Jingle bells) a humorous song, and the obligatory Hannukah song (always Dreidel or Hannukah oh hannukah).
Maybe it changed, I haven't been to a holiday concert in years, but I kind of doubt it.
The Private School I went to was different. No emphasis on any one religion, but religious songs from lots of religions. INTERESTING and challenging songs. Real Israeli hannukah songs sung in Hebrew. Swahili songs, Italian christmas songs, english of course too. But these were real religious songs from many faiths. I've never seen that anywhere else. No one was uncomfortable because no one was singled out or made inferior.
It was by far the best experience I ever had. |
StringsTeacher99
Citizen
Username: Blue_eyes
Post Number: 230
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 6:13 pm: |
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"why should children have to opt in or out based on their comfort level with the repertoire, as opposed to their love of music?"
If a child truly loves music, they will realize that they can seperate themselves from the message and see the music for what it is - an amazing work of art. What it comes down to is MUSIC education, not religious education - people are getting the two confused. Music education must incorporate all different faiths, religions, genres, composers, cultures, and time periods to be successful - in my opinion, eliminating any part of that list is unfair to the student musicians and shows a lack of quality in the program. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 6998
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 6:19 pm: |
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Michael, since the early 1990s the approach here at Holiday Assemblies was to have balance between faiths and creeds. The problem was that you can please all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time.
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Joe
Citizen
Username: Gonets
Post Number: 543
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 8:03 pm: |
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Michael,
This is one issue that you and I agree on. Since it's an important issue that's good.
In truth I never much cared for the tepid sentiment of tolerance. It's pretty damn condescending to tell someone that you tolerate their differences. Diversity is one of the things that makes this country great. It should be celebrated not have a protective antiseptic veneer slathered over it. |
Debby
Citizen
Username: Debby
Post Number: 1414
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 8:22 pm: |
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Very well said, Joe. I never really thought of it that way. But you're right, it is condescending. Kind of like when people say "white trash". |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 4727
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 8:34 pm: |
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Debby, you asked about Ramadan. The Muslim calendar is strictly lunar, so the year is only about 50 weeks long. This means that Muslim holidays are about two weeks earlier in the Christian year than they were the previous year. I remember when Ramadan was at another time of year.
Even though there is fasting, Ramadan is actually a happy time. They say that when the body fasts, the soul feasts, and vice versa. Also, the break-fast after sunset is festive. There is time for introspection, too, because the fast is supposed to remind of those who normally don't have enough to eat. And of course, being in a weakened state from not having enough to eat from day to day, you tend to be more humble and tolerant. Even though you can eat after sunset, it is impossible to eat a day's worth of food, so you end up being hungry all the time. |
Debby
Citizen
Username: Debby
Post Number: 1417
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 8:17 am: |
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Good description, Tom.
It just always seemed to me that like Yom Kippur it was a time of quiet introspection and humility. I think it is a beautiful concept, but not festive or analogous to Christmas, Chanukah or Kwanzaa. Eid - the big feast ending the month of Ramadan - now THAT'S a party. |
ashear
Citizen
Username: Ashear
Post Number: 1580
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 8:57 am: |
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If you want to talk great singing and dancing holidays Simchat Torah is one of my favorites. (Its about 2 weeks after Yom Kippur and celebrates the completion of the annual reading of the Torah, a portion of which is read every week during the year. There's lots of singing and dancing around the synagogue with the Torahs.) I don't imagine you will hear much about it in the schools, though it is a far more important holiday than Channukah, since it does not coincide with any Christian holidays. That is my problem with all of this. It is an educational disservice to Judaism and the students of SOM if the main thing they learn about Judaism is that Jews play with tops on Channukah and that Channukah is an important holiday when it is not. |
Debby
Citizen
Username: Debby
Post Number: 1418
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 11:16 am: |
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Absolutely true. |
Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 1369
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 12:28 pm: |
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The problem was that you can please all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time.
Wow, we agree 100%.
I've never been to a holiday concert here so I don't know. I was just speaking from my experiences.
I would love to see a program from years past just to understand what songs were sung in the concerts.
Ashear,
Very well put. When I was in grade school the teachers called Hannukah "Jewish Christmas".
Strings.
I agree about the whole music education thing, bt this is a holiday concert that can't sing holiday songs. Music education doesn't seem to be in arguement here. I don't think (and I may certainly be wrong) that this is an issue about either music education or religious education, its about diversity, the best way to express that diversity, and the best way to be inclusive at this time of year.
I personally would rather a musical program that celebrates different religions and cultures as opposed to one that sterilizes any religion or culture out of it so as not to offend anyone. |
Joan
Citizen
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 4493
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 9:25 pm: |
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Why should any of us be embarrassed to live in either of our two towns? Rather than accept what many of us consider to be a short sighted interpretation of a standing School Board policy, so many of us have chosen to grapple with this difficult problem through open dialog with our school officials, that the press has seen fit to report on the manner in which we are responding to this conflict.
Would you rather live in a community where challenge to an unpopular school policy resulted in rioting, boycotts, or other purely negative behavior?
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Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 318
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 10:56 pm: |
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Not embarrassed at living here at all. Somewhat embarrassed by the barrage of political correctness coming from our school board. Somewhat depressed on behalf of our children, who get caught in the PC crossfire when all they want to do is play music for their own pleasure and the pleasure of others in the holiday season. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 4803
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 18, 2004 - 8:24 am: |
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Another ill Joan didn't list was apathy. We certainly don't suffer from that. |
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 4204
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 8:00 pm: |
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It would be silly to be embarrassed to live here. In fact, I happily tell people that I live in the same town as Tom Reingold, the famous commentator on WNYC and in the New York Times.
 |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 1819
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 7:41 am: |
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Personally, I agree with the decision of the School Board and am more "embarassed" about the physical & legal threats I have heard members of the School Board are receiving over such a silly topic.
There are infinitely more important things students, parents and administrators should be worrying about than which songs are being sung 1 month out of the year.
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susan1014
Citizen
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 275
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 7:39 pm: |
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I'm not at all embarassed to live here. In fact I'm rather proud to be in a town that is so ready to debate and struggle with diversity issues. I support the School Board in their intent, and am appalled to hear that they are getting threats. For shame.
I am concerned, however, that we are going to have to start a legal defense fund to help the school district pay for the attacks of the radical right.
I'm furious at the people who are lending their names to the lawsuit, allowing our minor local battle to become a right wing battleground. Luckily I'm too mature for eggs or threats ;-) |
mjh
Citizen
Username: Mjh
Post Number: 7
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 7:41 am: |
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I was very proud to be a Maplewoodian until we became famous for whipping ourselves into a frenzy over losing our right to have our kids celebrate Christmas at school.
I'm embarassed now that we have right wing ideologues descending upon us and filing a lawsuit that will cost our district a lot of money that would be better spent in the classroom. I'm embarassed at the idea that anyone would threaten school board members over this or any other issue.
Our local battle could easily be resolved over time if we allow cooler heads to have reasonable discussions about teaching inclusiveness and diversity and religous tolerance without making anyone feel that they are being forced to celebrate a religous holiday that is not in keeping with their own beliefs.
Mary Jo |
jet
Citizen
Username: Jet
Post Number: 674
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 8:54 am: |
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Bogota Mayor Steve Lonegan to appear on Fox TV's Hannity & Colmes tonite to talk about his decision to organize illegal caroling in Maplewood . Way to go BOE , you have managed to turn a town that could be the set for "It's A Wonderfull Life " into the town that killed Christmas . Lets hope you get to meet Mr. Scrooge the next time you want somemore coal for your stockings. |
musicme
Citizen
Username: Musicme
Post Number: 914
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 9:02 am: |
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Nice to see our american way off life being defended so valiantly in Iraq. To bad this is what they are dying for.
"Those Jihadists just want our indoor plumbing" |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 1823
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 9:07 am: |
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I don't think 1300 Americans are dead so people can sing Christmas songs.
"Killed Christmas" by removing religion from PUBLIC school?
A little dramatic, no?
Keep this in perspective, people.
There are infinitely more important things students, parents and administrators should be worrying about than which songs are being sung 1 month out of the year.
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MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 1824
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 9:09 am: |
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I hope everyone is more outraged at that nutjob who is SUING the School District over this which will increase EVERYBODY'S taxes.
Ho Ho Ho, indeed. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 527
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 10:54 am: |
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jet,
It's just a publicity stunt. From what I've seen, caroling is not illegal. This is a SCHOOL thing. It's not a question of legality. No one's going to get arrested or fined for caroling. The only people who might tell them to move along are the homeowners I'm sure they will harass.
This guy is basically being an •••, playing to the press to get more publicity for himself and his nothing little Maplewood-wannabee town. |
jet
Citizen
Username: Jet
Post Number: 676
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 11:20 am: |
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Rastro, your right but the BOE has certainly provided the grist for his publicity mill. |
Ukealalio
Citizen
Username: Ukealalio
Post Number: 1579
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 24, 2004 - 1:05 am: |
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I think any resident of our town be they Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Agnostic, etc., should join the Mayor from Bogota and sing louder and better then him and his crew with big smiles on our faces (I betcha we have more musically inclined folks in our towns then in Bogota). Lets send his publicity seeking, sorry ••• back to Bogota in Shame. We don't need the mayor of Bogota here and we certainly don't need a right wing legal team, spreading their agenda either. These are great towns and we can solve our own problems without the "Help" of a bunch of publicity seeking charlatans. |
musicme
Citizen
Username: Musicme
Post Number: 915
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, December 24, 2004 - 7:26 am: |
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Let's go to Bogota and sing some death-metal favorites!
Bring it on |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 1833
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, December 24, 2004 - 12:07 pm: |
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In the interest of not offending anyone, I suggest that carolers make some slight modifications to a few old faves.
Join in a rousing rendition of "It's Beginning To Look A Lot Like... Saturday!"
And then, to the tune of "Noel," perhaps a solemn chorus or two of "Oh Well". |
Gumby
Citizen
Username: Harmonysociety
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 2:09 pm: |
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i am certainly glad that i live in South Orange & Maplewood. There are so many good things that i can only do justice by saying that i can not name them all. Regardless of the positives, one must recognize the negatives in order to begin improving upon that which is not acceptable. The sex parties at the reservation is one that many people dare not to speak of. Sex is a natural part of humanity that i believe should only be indulged in private. It is known that this has been going on for some time now but when the children take their time to go along with invoking positive change by cleaning up such areas as the reservation, only to find a heep of used condoms, i know that there is a definite time for change. }}}}}
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DeborahG
Citizen
Username: Deborahg
Post Number: 1137
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 2:43 pm: |
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Sex parties? And no one invited me?!!
Ahem. Sorry. Having a bad work day.
I've never found a heap of used condoms at the res., though I was taken aback one day to notice one gentleman with his head in another's lap in the front seat of his car. My dog was especially interested, and nearly caused a fateful accident by jumping up with his paws on the car window.
Luckily I didn't have my kids with me but hey fellas, if you are reading this, get a room. I didn't have kids with me that day, luckily, but it wa soffputting all the same. |
Soda
Citizen
Username: Soda
Post Number: 2239
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 5:03 pm: |
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Gosh, folks! Give 'em a break! It's such a pain to put up with all that traffic -- not to mention the cost of parking -- just to find a nice cozy nook in The Rambles...
-s.
BTW: Great first post, Gumby. Can't wait for the next one. |
Chris Prenovost
Citizen
Username: Chris_prenovost
Post Number: 197
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 6:01 pm: |
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At the end of the day, we look like collective boneheads.
Our towns are not known for academic excellence, inclusiveness, or tolerance.
We are known internationally as the towns that tried to ban Christmas Caroling. Or at least that is what people think.
And we have given them no reason to think otherwise. Thanks a heap, Shelley Slafkes and the un-inclusive Board of Education. |
argon_smythe
Citizen
Username: Argon_smythe
Post Number: 476
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 8:43 pm: |
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If anyone "internationally" can't distinguish between the policy of a school district and two towns "banning" Christmas caroling, they are truly the bonehead. This isn't some claymation Christmas special.
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Parkbench87
Citizen
Username: Parkbench87
Post Number: 1658
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 9:24 pm: |
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Burgher Meister, Meister Burgher? |
1-2many
Citizen
Username: Wbg69
Post Number: 922
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 1:14 pm: |
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fortunately, Dear Leader has shown us all that we should not be afraid of taking unpopular positions, like this one by the BOE.
...
ps. there is no BAN on religious music. there is a ban on school-sponsored celebration of religious events. wouldn't it bug you if they prevented your child from eating at school during Ramadan? it's the same thing. |
themp
Citizen
Username: Themp
Post Number: 1330
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 11:19 am: |
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Superintendant Chamers: "Religion has no place in public schools the way facts have no place in organized religion."
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