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Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 18
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 2:55 pm: | 
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I've posted very few times but enjoy the banter in this board. I've read over the past month how the red state folks are not to bright for liking Bush and basically bring nothing to the national table. Obvious I don't agree.
My particulars- white male, mid 30's, wife and 2 children, bachelor and master's degree, have lived in 2 blue states (Maryland/Maplewood, NJ) for a total of 15 years. Lived in 2 red states for 20 years (Alabama/Georgia). Currently reside in rural south Georgia. I worked at 7 WTC and was walking from the Customs Building (6 WTC)when the first plane hit. I went through the horror that alot of you went through that day and was never so glad to finally walk into my home at about 8pm that night after Penn Station reopened. I had a cousin who was a Naval officer and was killed at the Pentagon while attending a training class in the section where the plane hit. I attend church regularly and am involved in the church. I am pro death penalty, pro gay civil unions, pro choice, and pro guns. A myriad set of beliefs I do realize. I have voted Republican in every Presidential election but have voted for many democrats on the local and state levels. I guess I am more in line with the overall philosophy of the Republicans. I am definitely a fiscal conservative but lean more to the left on social issues. I wasn't happy that Clinton won twice but he wasn't all that bad a President. I am glad Bush has won twice but I don't think he's all that great.
Reading a lot of the topics lately has been amusing. For you who think that those of us in red land are mindless robots well I'm not going to change your thinking. It's funny that when I lived in Maplewood I was constantly trying to defend the conservative area of the country and now that I'm back here I am constantly trying to enlighten my peers down here on the northeastern and more liberal mindset. What's great is that both sets are bona fide good people. I loved my time in New Jersey and that is one of the reasons I continue to check out MOL. I've come to the simple conclusion that good intelligent people can disagree in politics. There is no harm in that. The world didn't end for all my red state pals when Clinton was Prez and I doubt it will end under Bush for my blue state friends.
As for all this talk about "moral values", I am quite tired of this. This isn't anything new. Georgia isn't any different than when we voted for Clinton in 1992. We're still the same folks who just liked a different candidate who was in a different party. One big difference I can note that some of you in the northeast may not understand is that church down south is much more than just a service from 11a-12noon on Sundays. Since we lack the big cities and all those pleasantries that come with them (shows. zoos, concerts, mass transportation, etc) the church acts as a much more social role than in the north and the metro NY/NJ area in particular. We enjoy church dinners several days a week, play in adult and children softball leagues and basketball leagues. The children programs are endless and it's a good place to go for a family. We are smart enough to know when some preacher is trying to pick our pockets and push his personal agenda. But I don't blame them because that is their job. My job is to make up my own mind and protect my family.
One reason church plays such a big role is that rural area folks have a lot more time to be involved. I admire the tenacity of northeasterners. I did it for 5 years and many of you have done it your entire life. I am talking about the headaches and hassles of trying to bring home the bacon in the metro area. I remember those days of leaving my house in the pitch black and cold only to return 12 or 13 hours in the pitch black and cold. I remember that feeling that you just spent all day in the rat race and now I just want to veg. Forget about going to this or that because I'm flat wore out. Luckily I didn't have children at that time or it would have made me sick to miss out on so many things while sitting in traffic or sitting on the train or just plain working harder and longer to keep up. I guess what I'm saying is that the culture of your area revolves around "work" for 5 days a week which eats away at time for other personal endeavors.
Another quirk I've noticed is that somehow Southerners are percieved as less tolerant. Now granted the history down here is the main culprit but to be honest I never lived in a more segregated area than Maplewood. The town is basically all white, the folks on the train are basically all white, go to a restaurant in the town and the patrons are basically all white. My wife and I were both not expecting this. We figured since many northerners make remarks about the south that when we moved to New Jersey that we would be living in a melting pot. I quickly realized that the north is no different than the south. You have your Irish area, your Polish area, your Jewish area, your hispanic area, and so forth. Now I don't think that there is anything wrong with people choosing to live with similar people but having grown up hearing how backwards the south was compared to the north I really thought it would be different but instead it was the exact same. For me living in both the north and south and traveling frequently in my job, people are people and most of the stereotypes are not applicable.
Now my two cents of predictions. This past election was basically won by the marketing of the Republicans. I was really shocked when it became clear that the Democrats would be selecting Kerry. Hello, a northeast liberal hasn't won in a long time. I remember thinking that Bush would win a close race and he did. I figured if Gore ran again he would win and I still think he would have won. The Gore/Bush race was much closer than Kerry/Bush. It's as if the Democrats have forgotten that their last two wins have been by Southern Democrats who appealed to enough southern/western states to get the electoral votes. Why would they run a northeast liberal? They were going to win those states anyway! I think they made a strategic blunder. Now I read that perhaps Corzine is interested. Here we go again. I kind of like Corzine and will give him a fair shot at my vote but he isn't going to win over the majority of folks that it will take to win. Hillary is interesting. She could do it but a lot of us southerners are still trying to figure out how a woman from Arkansas becomes a Senator in New York. I'm still trying to figure out with all the talented and intelligent people in New York that they had to tread below the Mason-Dixon for a candidate. To be honest, I think that Edwards has the best chance at winning more electoral votes. He's young, energetic, good looking, and seems to actually believe what he says. I could see him winning over a bunch of southern voters depending on who the Repubs throw out there.
One other topic, the gay marriage issue. I and a lot of people I know are for gay civil unions (we agree with all the arguments for equality) but their lobby made a mistake by forcing the issue of the term "gay marriage". Thus the states reacted as they should have been expected to do. I did vote for the amendment here in Georgia to our state constitution which defines marriage as between a man and a woman. That's what I believe. But I will vote to allow civil unions. That was just a bad marketing decision by the gay lobby. I soon hope that all 50 states allow gay civil unions so we can all move on.
Now I hope I didn't infuriate to many of you. I just wanted to give a perspective from a different part of the country. We are far from perfect down here but we're not as bad as every one makes us out to be. I have my convictions and beliefs and do my best not to infringe on others and I will raise my children that way as well. Who knows, maybe I'll get transferred back to your area sometime in the future. Of course I don't know if I could afford it the second time around! |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 4693
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 3:11 pm: |
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I haven't spent much time in the south, but for all I know, there's as much variety there as there is here.
Also, I know that xenophobia and ignorance also lead to arrogance. Northeasterners thought we were more racially tolerant, but the Boston bussing riots in the 70's disproved that. Some say that racism is merely more subtle in the north than in the south.
I agree that disagreeing can be fine, but the sad news is that it threatens far too many people. I think it's useful to get comfortable with disagreement.
Thanks for weighing in! |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 476
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 3:18 pm: |
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Get out of here you rational, civil, well-spoken moderate Republican. We don't want your kind around here. You're obviously not polarized or polarizing, so there's no place for you here on MOL.
On a more serious note, I think you have a better understanding of things that do and don't really divide our country than many who post here (myself included). It's nice to see a quasi-outside view of our insular little civil war here on MOL. I think if there was more interaction between the coasties and the centralists (I just made those up, if you can’t tell), there'd be less of the animosity we're seeing her from both sides (I don't want to point fingers at RL, so I won't mention him directly).
As for 2008, I think it's way too early to make calls. But I think the appeal of Corzine might be that he is self-made, and he is a business man first, politician second. He doesn't have Edwards' physical appeal, but to me looks more presidential than Edwards with his schoolboy look.
As for Hillary winning a Senate seat in NY, it was less that there was no other viable candidate, than no candidate wanted to oppose her, given how strong she polled early on, even before the race. And it's not like she's the only candidate to ever do this. In fact, Alan Keyes did this in Illinois. Of course, he got trounced. But that was more a function of his politics than his not being a local. Hillary's politics is a decent fit for representing NY. That's why she won, IMNSHO.
Anyway, welcome to the fray. Please don't let it suck you in and drag you down. But please do continue to post. We need more rational posters here. |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 565
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 3:52 pm: |
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Thanks for not mentioning me, Rastro.
Southerner: The problem in a nutshell is George W. Bush. Molly Ivens summed up why he is hated with the following description: "Sneering, jeering, bad manners, hideous diplomacy, threats, demands, lies, arrogance, bluster, tax cuts for the rich."
Bush is the worst thing to happen to this country and he should be immediately impeached and tried for treason.
And I disagree on your description of Maplewood. In my neighborhood are Jewish people, Catholics, Protestants, African American families, Hispanic families...I don't think calling Maplewood all white is a fair or accurate portrayal of this community.
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Dave
Moderator
Username: Dave
Post Number: 4652
Registered: 4-1998
| | Posted on Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 4:21 pm: |
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I think in many ways the south is still fighting the Civil War. By that I don't mean a military war or a desire to bring slavery back. I mean it's been more defining for those from the south. We tend not to think about "northern" and "southern" much at all. I can't imagine ever creating a username, "northerner" regardless of where I lived. Clinton knew history and knew about this. Edwards knows about it. Kerry didn't and most Dems who picked Kerry in the primary didn't. |
Mustt_mustt
Citizen
Username: Mustt_mustt
Post Number: 157
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 4:58 pm: |
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Southerner,
You say: "Now granted the history down here is the main culprit but to be honest I never lived in a more segregated area than Maplewood. The town is basically all white, the folks on the train are basically all white, go to a restaurant in the town and the patrons are basically all white. My wife and I were both not expecting this. We figured since many northerners make remarks about the south that when we moved to New Jersey that we would be living in a melting pot. I quickly realized that the north is no different than the south."
But the public schools are very diverse. Clinton and Columbia have strong African American student populations, so where are all the black folks in town? I do agree that I've rarely seen people of color in the restaurants in the village. On most occasions, my family is the only non-white one in a restaurant, especially in the village. Beats me!
Thanks for your thoughts. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 6952
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 6:27 pm: |
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I remember in college one of the women who was very active in the civil rights movement said during a speech, "In the south they don't care how close you get as long as you don't get to high, in the north they don't care how high you get as long as you don't get to close." Maybe unfair nowadays, but this has stuck with me for well over thirty years.
Gosh, Southerner, you all mean that at the end of services on Sunday the parking lot doesn't look like the start of the 24 hours at Le Mans?  |
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 4356
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 8:53 pm: |
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"I am talking about the headaches and hassles of trying to bring home the bacon in the metro area. I remember those days of leaving my house in the pitch black and cold only to return 12 or 13 hours in the pitch black and cold. I remember that feeling that you just spent all day in the rat race and now I just want to veg."
Question: Is it different there career wise? Did you win the lottery? |
Soda
Citizen
Username: Soda
Post Number: 2088
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 9:02 pm: |
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WE in the South (South Orange, that is) are just like most North Jersey/NYC folks. We make fun of the folks who live in South Jersey. They towk funni... |
twig
Citizen
Username: Twig
Post Number: 135
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 10:03 pm: |
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I am a registered Democrat but have a range of positions on issues. Perhaps my most consistent political belief is my inherent distrust of most politicians and my contempt for what I see as mindless partisanship. Imbued with such, I have led a sordid life of voting for third party candidates. Obviously, doing so is a protest vote, of sorts. But, in this past election, I altered that pattern and voted for Kerry. Like many, it was less a vote for Kerry than against those practices of Bush with which I disagreed. But, looking to the future, I cannot help but be influenced by what I have been reading on various MOL threads, specifically the rampant tenor of intolerance and lack of respect for positions that differ from one's own. Unless a major party candidate comes along who stirs and inspires me, I suspect that I am headed back to supporting third party candidates in 2008. Quite simply, I cannot see myself aligned with those who write in support of their respective candidate/party in such vitriolic, dualistic, and judgmental terms. It may be your right to do so, but telling me that if I vote for the democratic candidate I am going to he** or indicting me as being terminally stupid if I vote for the republican candidate only serves to disuade me and, I suspect, others like me. I understand that there are extremists on all sides and that these messsages don't necessarily refect the thinking of all republicans or democrats. But, just as the behavior of one priest, policeman, politician, or steriod taking ball player reflects on all of their peers, so too do the spiteful messages I have been reading. If you want our votes, attract us...don't threaten or insult us. I doubt that I will agree with all of your positions, so please don't expect me to do so. But, make me feel as though my points of view are respected and welcomed, even if they differ from yours. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 477
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 10:42 pm: |
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I can't believe I'm agreeing with two people in one thread. But twig, me too. |
Debby
Citizen
Username: Debby
Post Number: 1402
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 11:25 pm: |
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Mem - I don't know Southerner or his situation, but I can tell you it doesn't take a jackpot to achieve a different lifestyle. There are very few places in the US as expensive and intense as Metro NY. There are also few populations as interesting or literate.
I live in one of the more affluent communities in Florida - Boca Raton - and my house was $200,000 less than the one I sold in Maplewood. My property taxes are less than half of what they were, and there is no state income tax. Wages here are not what they are in NY, but they do not need to be.
Our neighbors have a variety of careers, and some of the corporate people travel a good deal, but I don't know anyone who heads to work before 7:30, or misses dinner on a regular basis. When I worked in public accounting in NY/NJ I didn't know anyone in management who got home for dinner more than once a week.
Again, there's definitely a lot you give up. People are very nice, but not generally as funny or interesting. I think the intense pace of NY gives people an 'edge', and edgy is interesting.
That's why I live vicariously through MOL.
Cheers,
Debby
P.S. We're getting a cold front over the weekend - overnight lows in the 40's! |
Mustt_mustt
Citizen
Username: Mustt_mustt
Post Number: 159
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 1:34 am: |
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Debby: Please do not live vicariously through MOL. You don't know what it means to park the car and walk to the station to go to work...after dropping your kid at school. I mean my kid. No, Debby, I think you are doing fine in sunny Florida. Please live really. Life is pretty screwed up on MOL, forget Maplewood. We are in the news, i.e., ABC news. We are the O'Reilly factor the O'Brien joke and the CBS Inside Story..whatever you call it in sunny Florida.
but here is my question: i thought you were supposed to be the citizen of the Republic of Maplewood!!! What are you doing writing from Florida? Just curious.... |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 967
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 5:40 am: |
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My old life in my old state south of here was a lot more like what Southerner describes, minus the reliance on church for socializing. As an adult, I've lived in Columbus OH, Ann Arbor MI, Newark DE and now here. Living near NY is by far the most stressful, and family unfriendly for reasons of commute and work intensity. Some of it, I think we create, like adrenaline junkies cuz it makes us feel alive or something. Some of it seems to come with the sheer economic difficulty of living around here. It seems to translate into bad -- or harsh -- public manners in driving, street behavior, elevator protocol you name it.
I mostly lived in college towns, so I didn't find the humor or interesting/edgy gap that Debby describes. I do agree with Southerner on the ethnic area business, and the seeming desire in Metro NY and parts of N NJ, to cling to one's own heritage by neighborhood. I often think the intenseness of economic pressures encourages people to seek safe haven in homogeneous neighborhoods. Career-wise, I see no differences. If part of the goal of career is to advance and make more money mostly to have a nicer family life and more options, well, a dollar goes a lot farther elsewhere. Personally, we travelled more, attended more arts events etc. elsewhere. And schools were just as good in terms of objective outcomes. If actual "buying power" is lower here, what's the advantage of a bigger salary?
In the above and a few other ways, I find this area way more provincial than a lot of others in the U.S. It's like the Metro NY area so believes its own image that it ignores info to the contrary. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 19
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 8:49 am: |
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Thanks for the positive responses. I was kind of expecting to be blasted but my faith in this board has been restored.
To answer some of your questions or concerns - Rastro, I agree with you about Corzine. One of the reasons I would give him a fair shot at my vote is that he is indeed a "self made" man and I love his business background. Dave, I get your point about my username. I chose this name out of respect for this board. I wanted it to be known that I am no longer a resident of your town or area and that I fit the general mold of everyone's view of a Southerner, ie Christian Republican. I didn't want to be a guest of this board and pretend I'm a resident. I figured my username would quickly allow people to know that I'm not a local. I do agree that the days of labels such as Southern Redneck or Northern Yankee are way in the past. Bobk, the church parking lot on Sundays at noon does indeed look alot like the Le Mans. But hey, I've been there since about 9:30am for Sunday school and football starts in an hour and I gotta fit lunch in at some point!
Mem - boy do I wish I won the lottery but unfortunately I didn't. I simply was able to get a transfer back south. I made a nice chunk of change on the house so am in a good financial position because of that. The Atlanta Metro area is one of the fastest growing areas in the country (see this month's Kiplinger's) and alot of those folks hail from up north. I think Debby better articulated what I was trying to say on that subject. It's just a much bigger rat race that eats into personal time throughout the week. There are only two real mega rat races when it comes to commuting and that's NY/NJ and LA. I worked in DC for many years and no matter how bad they complain the commute is so much easier than in your area of the country. Atlanta is pretty bad due to the lack of public transportation but just the everyday hassles ya'll go through win the prize so far in my life. Again, I have the utmost respect for all of you in Maplewood. A good group of hardworking down to earth Americans. I loved my time there and if I ever got transferred back would definitely look to that area again to live, but unless I got a nice pay raise I couldn't afford it. Hey Reingold, is there room in your basement for a family of four? Although you and I are probably on opposite sides of most "political" issues you are the kind of guy I could be good friends with. |
Debby
Citizen
Username: Debby
Post Number: 1403
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 8:50 am: |
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Cynical - I think you are exactly right about the "sheer economic stress" part. There is an intensity of demands that people don't really experience to the same degree in most parts of the country. There just isn't the same pervasive exhaustion.
Mustt-Mustt...I miss Maplewood a lot, and MOL and phone calls to friends help me feel a little connected. We moved 1.5 years ago, for economic and family reasons (aging parents, the slow descent of Alzheimer's, yada-yada). Life in Florida has some amazing benefits - great weather most of the year (but the hurricanes really sucked) enables you spend a lot of time outside all year - I think that has a big impact on the collective mental health. Much slower pace of life, and a general civility just make things pleasant. Lower cost of living lets you BREATH a little.
But it is pretty white bread. I miss the creative energy and diversity of M/SO. It was nice to live among so many artsy, educated people. And it was great for my children to grow up among people who don't all look alike. The first day of school here, my fourth grader came home and asked "How come there's no black people in Florida?"
I agree with Southerner and Cynical about the neighborhood divisions in Maplewood, but the community as a whole is a lot more representative. I think SO is a lot more integrated.
Cheers
Debby |
Joe
Citizen
Username: Gonets
Post Number: 533
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 7:16 pm: |
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Southerner,
From your first post I assumed that you lived in the country, but now I get the sense that you live in the Atlanta metro area. Is that correct? If yes I'm guessing that you're fortunate enough to live pretty close to your work, because the Atlanta metro area ranks right up there with this area (and may even surpass it) in terms of how much time people spend commuting. Expect Atlanta commuting times to get much worse in the next decade--since, as you point out, the area is one of the fastest growing regions in the country, and I believe that city planners have chosen to just build more highways rather than invest in mass transit. Rather than ease congestion these new highways will contribute to it as development will occur alongside the highways. Our God awful Route 287 was supposed to ease congestion into NYC by being a beltway around Manhattan. Instead it's become a quagmire in both directions.
Here's where we get into a matter of personal preference. I feel much better about the prospects of taking the train into NYC over the course of next decade than I would driving to work in a major metro area that is one of the nation's fastest growing areas. Since the train should be a little more constant--whereas you can bet the driving commutes (there and in any fast growing area).
As a kid I moved from Brooklyn, NY to a town in Monmouth County NJ back in the late 70's. We loved the fact that we actually lived in what we perceived to be the country, and at the time it was a bearable commute for my dad, but we were the leading edge of a mass migration to this area. In less than 10 years the area devolved from a buccolic retreat to more of a sprawling suburban mess. Now it has no character and there's nothing relaxing about it. I'd never go back. That being said Money magazine thinks highly enough of the area to rank it as one of the nicest places to live. Well, there's no accounting for taste.
It sounds like you just happen to be in a place where you feel more at home. There are probably many benefits to the Atlanta area. Affordable housing is a great perk, so too must be the shorter work week. But, I don't think people should expect a vast improvement in their commute if they relocate down there. In fact don't be surprised if the influx of northeasterners brings with it a longer work week. We really aren't very good at taking it easy--even when it's hot as hell. Maybe the best thing for this area would be a mass migration of Southerners who can show us how to tell the boss that it's time go home to the family.
Thanks for weighing in. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 22
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 7:42 pm: |
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Joe, good points and I agree on all. I definitely live in rural south Georgia about 3 hours south of Atlanta. I lived in Atlanta many years (college, job #1) and most of my family is in that area. Traffic is indeed bad and getting worse. The train is definitely the way to go but the burbs are against it. Oh well, let them sit in traffic then.
My point about the commute time wasn't to compare areas but instead to show that churches play a larger role in rural social life and I think part of that is that folks in rural areas have more expendable time on their hands and less options to choose from to spend that time. I often meet my wife and children at church on my home from work in order to have dinner and socialize while the kids can run around and hopefully tire themselves out before bath time (and sometimes they forget to pass the collection plate... ha, ha). Some of the past months topics seemed to paint us all as some type of bible mongering core Republican group. That just isn't the case as is noted by our state going for Clinton. While we do have our share of "over the toppers" the vast majority are just good ole people just like all my friends in Maplewood. They just have a different viewpoint on political issues.
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Joe
Citizen
Username: Gonets
Post Number: 534
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 7:48 pm: |
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Oh. I get you.
I found what you had to say about the church being a focal point for social activities very interesting. What's funny is that the same could be said about my old neighborhood in Brooklyn. But we never got accused of being Bible thumpers.
Well, enjoy your weekend. I hope you get to stay where you want to be.
Joe |
Ukealalio
Citizen
Username: Ukealalio
Post Number: 1556
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 1:33 am: |
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This thread reminds me of the song Rednecks by Randy Newman. Now don't go ballistic until you listen to All of his words. |
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 4358
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 7:58 am: |
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My career has generally been to get up, make my way to work, plug myself into the jolting electric current all day, then unplug and exhaustingly make my way home. I have lived in the northeast (This area and outside Philly) all my life. I have commuted to west NJ, north NJ, Newark, NYC and now 35 miles north to NY state (30 mile long Garden State Parking Lot). I have used napping, reading, (a nice habit I developed commuting by train to NYC was reading Nat Geo end to end), books on tape and radio talk shows (yuck). The weekends are never enough down time, and vacations usually end with the dread of "going back".
Since 9/11 I have been looking for various ways to cash out and find a bucolic place and way to live, like farming, sell my art, or similar. But, I would miss all my family and friends, conveniences, the culture, and of course, NYC. And I chicken out at the thought of making a huge mistake and end up with no money living in a trailor. I admire those who have just picked up, moved and started a new and better life. Cheers to you. |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 972
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 8:30 am: |
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Like the refrain of the John Prine song, Spanish Pipedream:
Blow up your T.V. throw away your paper
Go to the country, build you a home
Plant a little garden, eat a lot of peaches
Try an find Jesus on your own
[Well, maybe not the last line, depending...]
I agree, mem. Nothing is more seductive to me than jumping into a Real Simple paradise...! |
Debby
Citizen
Username: Debby
Post Number: 1407
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 8:49 am: |
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Well South Florida is hardly bucolic, but it is a simpler life. And it was a great way to "cash out".
How about Vermont? It's very anti-rat race, and driving distance to NY/NJ, and way, way cheaper than North Jersey.
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Debby
Citizen
Username: Debby
Post Number: 1408
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 8:51 am: |
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Southerner - I have always heard such great things about Georgia. I have cousins who relocated to Marietta about 10 years ago, and they would never think of leaving. I'm hoping to get up to see them this year. |
Chalmers
Citizen
Username: Chalmers
Post Number: 102
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 9:56 am: |
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Another point about Corzine is that he's from rural Central Illinois and lived there through college.
Of course, if he ever runs for president, he'll be painted as a Northeast limousine liberal, but he's not a guy who is going to ask what the farm equipment is for or who's catering the church dinner. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 2892
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 4:17 pm: |
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Corzine is a NE liberal. No paint necessary. |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2780
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 4:57 pm: |
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Too early for the paint. Maybe Corzine will be elected governor of NJ and prove himself to be a pragmatic and effective leader. If so, the ideologues currently occupying the White House will be in trouble. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 6971
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 5:34 pm: |
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Guys, forget the NE liberals even if they know how to drive a tractor. |
ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 3147
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 1:08 pm: |
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yeah, but it's high time for some facial hair in the white house. |
themp
Citizen
Username: Themp
Post Number: 1258
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 7:52 pm: |
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"The town is basically all white, the folks on the train are basically all white, go to a restaurant in the town and the patrons are basically all white."
I disagree with this statement, but the point is that there is a tremendous sorting of blacks and white that is dictated by income in this country - a legacy of racism that lags behing the end of most legal racism. Recently Alabama had a chance to change segregation language in their state constititution, and they voted not to. http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/columnist/wickham/2004-12-06-wickham_x.htm. How did you vote? And how do you explain the decision by your state to keep this meaningless language around? ( you did say you live there now, didn't you? Forgive me for not going back to check. )
Sometime my friends and I daydream about America without the South. Maybe we should have let them leave, we joke. The southern land-based wealth system was like that in czarist Russia. It would never have kept up with Northern wealth as the decades passed. What would the respective nations look like now? The South would have run a course close to South Africa's, perhaps, and would be going through reconciliation hearings and stuff right now. In the North we perhaps would have some of Europe's ills, but some of its blessings, too. |
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 4185
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 12:02 am: |
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Just to address the issue - no, you're not all that bad. Both sides have folks who generalize.
But, if you don't mind my saying, your argument seems to be that a "northeast liberal" won't win in the South, and the the "northeast" part is almost as significant as the "liberal" part. Doesn't that undercut your point just a little? |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 23
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 8:45 am: |
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Nohero, good point. I can admit when I say something stupid (which is quite often, just ask my wife). The general jargon tossed about on this board has infiltrated me. My point which I know you understand is that northeasterners haven't done to well in Presidential elections since JFK. Out of the two main parties only the Democratic Party continues to run these guys out there only to lose. It seems as if the Repubs have figured out the key to an electoral victory faster than the Democrats have. The Democrats to their credit atleast threw Clinton in there and he won twice. Why ole why wouldn't they stick with the winning formula. Oh well. |
themp
Citizen
Username: Themp
Post Number: 1263
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 10:16 am: |
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"Why ole why wouldn't they stick with the winning formula."
No formula, unfortunately. Clinton was a once in a lifetime talent. Look how underwhelming Edwards was.
Next time we get a rhoades scholar-poorboy-southern-governor-fiscal conservative-orator-bible quoting-policy wonk-6'3"-full head of hair-saxophone player, we'll run him.
The primaries choose the candidate. Anyone may run. if the "Democratic Party continues to run these guys out there only to lose" it's because those guys triumphed in the primary. We lost two elections in a row (arguably one in a row). The GOP lost the two before that (arguably three). What's so terrible about that record? |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 24
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 11:50 pm: |
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Themp, Clinton was indeed a once in a lifetime political talent, similar to Reagan in his charisma and his likeability by those who supported him. To say Edwards was underwhelming is interesting. I don't know to many people who base their vote on the VP candidate. I think Edwards would have done better for the Democrats as the Presidential nominee. I can't think of one blue state that would have gone for Bush if Edwards was the nominee rather than Kerry. However, Edwards may have won a state like Ohio and thus turned the electoral tide. We'll never know. I'm sure Edwards is looking back and wishing he hadn't attached his political cart to the Kerry horse. As a supporter of the more conservative view I will admit that Edwards makes me nervous. He could be that next Clinton type.
As for the record, your right in that over the last four elections the score is 2-2, however, looking back a little farther reveals a 5-2 advantage for the Republicans since 1980. And I do like that record. I hope the Democrats continue to nominate guys like Kerry because it means the Republicans have a good shot at a victory. I know you don't agree with this but I'm trying to look at it objectively. The last two successful Democratic candidates have been Carter and Clinton. Again I must ask, why don't the Democrats stick to what seems to work? I don't think the Republicans walk on water but they at least seem to have a solid game plan each election cycle which has done them well over the last 25 years. |
ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 3153
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 6:29 am: |
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southerner, yes, you're really that bad.
To think that you think that all southerners who are christians are also republicans was the first sign.
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Debby
Citizen
Username: Debby
Post Number: 1416
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 8:11 am: |
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Southerner - I totally agree about Edwards...I think he has a lot of potential. He is extremely intelligent and well spoken, and much more to the point than Kerry (not that that's difficult). However, I think the Rove election apparatus was very effective at painting him as the "trial lawyer" - conjuring up images of 1-800-IM2-HURT infomercials. |
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