| Author | Message | ||
     themp Citizen Username: Themp Post Number: 1245 Registered: 12-2001 |
Army Spc. Thomas Wilson, for example, of the 278th Regimental Combat Team that is comprised mainly of citizen soldiers of the Tennessee Army National Guard, asked Rumsfeld in a question-and-answer session why vehicle armor is still in short supply, nearly two years after the start of the war that ousted Iraqi President Saddam Hussein. "Why do we soldiers have to dig through local landfills for pieces of scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass to uparmor our vehicles?" Wilson asked. A big cheer arose from the approximately 2,300 soldiers in the cavernous hangar who assembled to see and hear the secretary of defense. Rumsfeld hesitated and asked Wilson to repeat his question. "We do not have proper armored vehicles to carry with us north," Wilson said after asking again. Rumsfeld replied that troops should make the best of the conditions they face and said the Army was pushing manufacturers of vehicle armor to produce it as fast as humanly possible. (AP) Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, right, is greeted by Chief of Staff of Kuwait Armed Forces... Full Image And, the defense chief added, armor is not always a savior in the kind of combat U.S. troops face in Iraq, where the insurgents' weapon of choice is the roadside bomb, or improvised explosive device that has killed and maimed hundreds, if not thousands, of American troops since the summer of 2003. "You can have all the armor in the world on a tank and it can (still) be blown up," Rumsfeld said. Oh, ok. Never mind then, Secretary Strangelove. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2770 Registered: 12-2001  |
In WW II, our soldiers quickly fitted their Sherman tanks with hedgehogs that allowed them to breakout of the Norman hedgerow countryside. A soldier on the ground figured this out and they fashioned the hedgehogs from scrap metal. This kind of improvisation is typical of wars. Of course, Rumsfeld could have answered the question without the spin. | ||
| themp Citizen Username: Themp Post Number: 1246 Registered: 12-2001 |
But in a war of choice, you should go in prepared. Plus, generally, when someone uses two or more explanations, I'm suspicious that they are full of it. "You have armor, we're doing everything humanly possible to get you armor, plus armor isn't important". | ||
| jjkatz Citizen Username: Jjkatz Post Number: 442 Registered: 12-2003 |
I heard that Rummy's assertions about the supplies that were on their way were proven false within 24 hours. I just don't think he can help it. He'd probably look you right in the eye and tell you the earth has two moons. | ||
| Robert Livingston Citizen Username: Rob_livingston Post Number: 570 Registered: 7-2004 |
On Scarborough Country last night, the president of Armorworks, Matt Salmon, explained that his company has developed a new, lighter Humvee armor, and that his company is only producing at 50 percent capacity. He said: "So, if money is not the issue and we have got the solution and we are not even close to capacity, why isn‘t it out there? That question has to be asked." Here was President Bush's assertion on the matter, "If I were a soldier overseas wanting to defend my country, I'd want to ask the secretary of defense the same question." But as president, he couldn't be bothered to ask that question, or do something about it. Incompetence. Now that campaigning is over, Bush's promises about armor don't matter anymore. Bush and Rumsfeld are liars and criminals. Because the troops are aware of that, they are about to have a mutiny on their hands. | ||
| Straw's world Citizen Username: Strawberry Post Number: 4110 Registered: 10-2001 |
oh boy stupid libs strike again. 1) We now know the question was planted by a lib reporter with an agenda. This wasn't even close to being a concern for 99.9% of the soldiers. 2) 18 MONTHS AGO WE HAD 300 ARMORED HUMVEES IN IRAQ. TODAY WE HAVE OVER 20,000. libs are sooooo dumb.  | ||
| Robert Livingston Citizen Username: Rob_livingston Post Number: 571 Registered: 7-2004 |
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| Nohero Citizen Username: Nohero Post Number: 4179 Registered: 10-1999  |
"This wasn't even close to being a concern for 99.9% of the soldiers." So, that was the applause of several hundred reporters that we all heard, after Spc. Wilson asked his question? It sure sounded like the other soldiers. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 480 Registered: 5-2004  |
Straw, 1-Yes, the question was planted by a reporter. That does not mean that it was not a concern for other soldiers. Several sources say that soldiers cheered when the question was asked. Also, the soldier who asked, according to his wife, was definitely the kind of guy that would ask a question like that. And the soldier DID ask the question, not the reporter. He was not paid to do so, so I think it would be fair to say it was a concern of his. 2-Two armor vehicle manufacturers have said their offers to increase production have fallen on deaf ears at the Pentagon. In particular, I'm curious where you got your 20,000 number, and what types of vehicles that includes, since the Army says there are only around 6,100 (2000 short of the 8100 sought) heavily protected Humvees in Iraq. Does that mean that there are 13,900 lightly- or un-protected Humvees? Who gets to ride in those? | ||
| Straw's world Citizen Username: Strawberry Post Number: 4111 Registered: 10-2001 |
Rasto, "Up Armored" Hummers. I should say a little less than 20,000..230 to be exact 18 months ago. Nice increase obviously. One of the biggest issues we've had is securing steel for the mfg plants. As you know China is buying about 3/4 of all the steel within the world. The Bush administration did jump in quite fast to secure extra product to complete the orders. Nice job there. Nohero, Fellow soliders always show support for one another. If that soldier had said USA! the applause would have been thunderous. This as opposed to the polite applause he received. | ||
| Duncan Citizen Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 3618 Registered: 12-2001  |
Polite applause.. NOW THATS COMEDY | ||
| Nohero Citizen Username: Nohero Post Number: 4180 Registered: 10-1999 |
Our soldiers are risking their lives, but apparently it's appropriate for some people to belittle their concerns. It would be funny except - no, strike that. It just isn't funny at all. | ||
| bobk Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 6963 Registered: 5-2001 |
Yep, we used to have a domestic steel industry. However, it is cheaper to manufacture in Korea,Indonesian and god knows where else, so we don't anymore. There also used to be a thing called strategic industries that we kept at home for this very reason. Now we even have to buy small arms ammunition from Canada. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2772 Registered: 12-2001 |
Straw, This is one of those times when you exceed your usual standard of "mean-spirited, but not funny". There hasn't been a soldier in the history of warfare that hasn't wished for better equipment. Sometimes, those concerns have a mortal urgency. This is the case today when our soldiers on convoy must feel like ducks in a shooting gallery just as it was in WW II when we gave our soldiers tin cans (aka Sherman tanks) with which to fight German tanks. The soldiers performed their mission. Today, we have the resources to treat them better and we should. | ||
| Straw's world Citizen Username: Strawberry Post Number: 4112 Registered: 10-2001 |
uh.. I gave you statistical facts Tjohn, and you come back with some crap about WWII. BORING my stats are accurate...period. | ||
| Albatross Citizen Username: Albatross Post Number: 402 Registered: 9-2004  |
So is this stat: only 25% of military trucks are armored. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2773 Registered: 12-2001 |
Thanks Straw. I'll use your stats as consolation if I ever meet the survivors of a soldier killed in an unarmored convoy vehicle. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2774 Registered: 12-2001 |
"One of the biggest issues we've had is securing steel for the mfg plants. As you know China is buying about 3/4 of all the steel within the world. The Bush administration did jump in quite fast to secure extra product to complete the orders. Nice job there. " Straw - where did you get this? I haven't heard our auto industry complaining about steel. Are you suggesting that the necessary steel (if they even use steel) to armor humvees can't be obtained even though this is a fraction of the amount of steel used for civilian purposes. | ||
| Straw's world Citizen Username: Strawberry Post Number: 4113 Registered: 10-2001 |
1 hummer for every 8 soldiers in Iraq is "UP Armored." The reporter who wanted a story got a story, just not the one he wanted. And the libs once again fall for it hook, line and sinker. Sorry to burst the bubble of the libs. But this is just not an issue. And yes Tjohn in case you haven't heard, steel isn't a commodity that grows on trees. Libs, always wrong but luckily for us, they no longer matter. America announced in November we were tired of their whining. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 481 Registered: 5-2004 |
Actually, Straw, you're wrong. The companies that make the armor have said they are more than capable of increasing their output. The response from the Pentagon was deafening in its silence. One of the mfgs doesn't use steel as its primary armor. And I somehow think the auto industry could forgo a couple of cars to allow our soldiers to ride in properly armored vehicles. Or do you need another Hummer instead? And your "statistics" (they're not statistics, they're numbers) were just plain wrong. One armored humvee for every eight soldiers? That would be something like 18,000 armored humvees. But in the article I quoted, the Army indicated that they only have around 6,000 armored humvees. You have my source. What it yours that shows one for eight? And I don't see what you mean by "fell for it hook line and sinker." They are facts. Just because Rumsfeld pooh pooh-ed it doesn't mean it's not an issue. To me, the fact that you are alone in arguing this, when some of your rational conservative cohorts are staying away from it is proof to me that there is no explaining this away so easily. MJ, surely this isn's a market forces issue, is it?  Oh, and Straw? The whole reason the US steel industry collapsed is because steel IS a commodity. You might want to take an econ class or two some time, or maybe read a little before you start spewing about things you know nothing about. |
