| Author | Message | ||
     Albatross Citizen Username: Albatross Post Number: 404 Registered: 9-2004  |
On point: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/11/international/middleeast/11armor.html | ||
| Straw's world Citizen Username: Strawberry Post Number: 4115 Registered: 10-2001 |
steel IS a commodity (that grows on trees?)..Learn to read Rastro. Libs are annoying. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2775 Registered: 12-2001  |
Straw once again ventured into reality and became lost. He offered up the lame (and false) apology that not all hummers were armored due to shortages in steel. Yet, he can't explain how it is that the auto industry can use millions of tons of steel every year with nary an issue while we can't manage to find a few tens of thousands of tons of steel to protect unarmored trucks. The simple truth is that the Bush Administration completely underestimated what they were getting into with this optional war that was in the hearts of the neocons even before the attacks of September 11, 2001. Straw still seems to be struggling with the idea of commodities that come from the ground versus those that come from plants. | ||
| Straw's world Citizen Username: Strawberry Post Number: 4117 Registered: 10-2001 |
You try an educate liberals with facts and their absolute hatrid of the U.S rings even louder. As I've said before, libs no longer matter. You people have done a heck of a job on the National Scene because you don't listen, you don't learn and you continue attacking the U.S and its troops. Steel shortages ARE nothing new, Tjohn. However, in your case as is always the case, it's better to guess than it is to know. That's why you've been wrong the last 4 years about EVERYTHING we saw in November. That's why you will continue to get it wrong. You just don't understand the way the world really work. You just don't understand what it is the Pentagon's done to fight two wars in 2 different nations at the same time. You don't understand why it's important to create Democratic principals in regions where it doesn't exist. This because as a socialist, you just don't believe in Democracy. And yes, a lib in 2004 is a damn socialist. There's no difference anymore. Especially when you consider both Socialism and liberal thought both no longer carry much weight. and thank god for that. I choose to live in a world where Reagans and Bushs' make decisions. You can have Ted Kennedy, Carter, Kerry & Dean. 4 losers leading a bunch of losers. | ||
| Dave Moderator Username: Dave Post Number: 4659 Registered: 4-1998  |
Bush spends like a liberal. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2776 Registered: 12-2001 |
Straw continues to wallow in facts but can't assimilate these facts into the big picture. Let me help the Straw with this article from a newspaper from the heart of America. http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/10381283.htm?1c The problem is not material shortages, the problem is fairy tale war planning by the Bush Administration. And while it is true that steel is in great demand these days with spot shortages, the amount needed for armoring the soft vehicles in Iraq is trivial. Steel is not the problem. Somebody forgot to tell the Bushies that while you may market the fairy tale version of the war, you should plan for the nightmare version. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2777 Registered: 12-2001 |
Here's more. http://www.rleeermey.org/viewtopic.php?t=2519 And I am guessing most of these guys are Bush supporters. | ||
| bobk Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 6968 Registered: 5-2001 |
It also isn't just the Hummers, it is transport trucks. In a war with no front lines driving a truck is more dangerous than it has been since the days of the Red Ball Express in WWII. | ||
| Debby Citizen Username: Debby Post Number: 1409 Registered: 5-2001 |
Al Franken is going on another USO tour to Iraq (for Christmas, I think) and he's going to bring a Kevlar vest and leave it for someone who needs it. I admire the actions he takes to support the troops. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2778 Registered: 12-2001 |
Bobk, Please don't reference WW II. Straw gets overwhelmed and dismisses is as "crap". | ||
| wharfrat Citizen Username: Wharfrat Post Number: 1454 Registered: 6-2001 |
I can't resist... Straw insists a shortage of steel prevents the Pentagon from uparmoring humvees in Iraq. Straw, who would be the first to tell you that he is the biggest patriot in Maplewood, once again misses an opportunity to do the right thing. He could scrap one, two or all three of the jeeps he supposedly owns PLUS that junker sitting in his garage, and make sure the metal is used for uparmoring. Then, to help ween the US from Mid-east oil could get a fuel efficient vehicle. Straw doesn't want to hear about WW II because he isn't willing to make the sacrifices needed to support the soldiers risking their lives in a war he supports based on bs intelligence. As Bugs Bunny used to say, "What a ma..." Ah, now I'm feeling better!  | ||
| Maple Man Citizen Username: Mapleman Post Number: 480 Registered: 6-2004  |
I thought vehicles that were armored at the factory used Kevlar, not steel. | ||
| Maple Man Citizen Username: Mapleman Post Number: 481 Registered: 6-2004 |
apparently Humvees CAN be uparmored with ceramic and kevlar, but haven't been.
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2004/03/08/iraq_death_spurs _push_for_humvee_armor/ | ||
| Straw's world Citizen Username: Strawberry Post Number: 4118 Registered: 10-2001 |
Wharfie, I said a steel shortage "threatened" the mass production of UPArmored hummers. The administration stepped in and made it happen without delay. Just another accomplishment the libs don't get a chance to read about in the NY Times. 230 uparmored hummers 18 months ago in preps for the war. Once it became clear this was going to be a longer term violent occupation and a shorter term war (which is what it became) Bush made sure we had an extra 17,000+++ Armored Humvees. This is the bottom line people. This issue is nothing more then libs looking for something, anything. And once again they have failed. period. | ||
| Robert Livingston Citizen Username: Rob_livingston Post Number: 572 Registered: 7-2004 |
Wrong, again, tough guy. Military morale is at an appalling low. Soldiers are begging our defense secretary for the necessary equipment. Soldiers are suing the government. Soldiers who served for 16 years, and in the first Iraq war, are refusing to report for duty. Soldiers are refusing orders, which is wrong, but that is the reality. The company Armorworks is running at 50 percent output on their new, lighter body and humvee armor, with not a word from Bush to increase production. The bottom line is that Bush f*cked up. | ||
| Thenewguy Citizen Username: Thenewguy Post Number: 30 Registered: 4-2004 |
"230 uparmored hummers 18 months ago in preps for the war." So we went IN to war with only 230 armored troop transport vehicles?!?!? That can't possibly be right...I'm must be missing something... | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 2891 Registered: 8-2003 |
Actually, steel or a shortage of it isn't a valid excuse. The AZ plant Rep. Salmon (?) was speaking about used a ceramic armor technology. It's lighter and better matched with the Humvees. It's also more expensive. This is a mistake by the Administration for not up-armoring faster than they could, it turns out. We can now look forward to the next military special supplement with more Democratic support. Maybe even Kerry's this time. | ||
| Straw's world Citizen Username: Strawberry Post Number: 4119 Registered: 10-2001 |
"So we went IN to war with only 230 armored troop transport vehicles." Don't confuse hummers with tanks. Once we have control of a city other vehicles including transport vehicles are brought in. As I said no one anticipated the war being won as quickly as it was. (the heavy combat aspect that is).. This decisive destruction of Saddam's kingdom actually set us back since we never planned on it happening as fast as it did. This remains Rumsfeld's biggest misplay. However, again keep in mind he was prepping for a war that included bio and chemical weapons. Again libs, these are facts. Learn them, know them, live them. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2779 Registered: 12-2001 |
Straw is drowning and grasping at straws, no pun intended. He writes: "Once it became clear this was going to be a longer term violent occupation and a shorter term " A cadet war planner at West Point would have assumed that a short war of conquest followed by a long war of occupation would be the most likely outcome. Fork-tongue Cheney knew this in 1991. Unfortunately, the neocon dreamers overruled adult military planners in 2001. You used the greatest mistake of the Bush Administration as a justification for not equipping our soldiers as well as we could? | ||
| Straw's world Citizen Username: Strawberry Post Number: 4120 Registered: 10-2001 |
oh boy Tjohn, I don't know what to say other than you're 100% wrong. No one, not the military planners, not Rumsfeld, not Bush, not Congress, not the U.N. anticipated Baghdad would fall as quickly as it did. No one. Sorry Tjohn, you are just wrong. period. As someone who has worked closely with a few of the embedded reporters who made the journey to Baghdad during the initial strike, I can tell you they'd all laugh at your attempt to dismiss what most felt they were in store for. |
