| Author | Message | ||
     tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2786 Registered: 12-2001  |
Back off, Joe! Straw hasn't been told how to respond to your question yet. | ||
| Straw's world Citizen Username: Strawberry Post Number: 4125 Registered: 10-2001 |
Joe, You seem like you're not someone who's well informed so I will explain this point to you as I would any 6th grader. (which for all I know you may be) The Pentagon planned on taking down Baghdad with air strikes followed by troops. As the troops moved towards Baghdad officials were expecting heavy combat including an assortment of weapons that could include bio and chemical weapons. All the troops driving towards Baghdad had gas masks and were prepped for what to do once the chemical attack took place. (they were told when the attack took place, not if by the way) The thought process was that if the the U.S took heavy lose of life during this initial drive we would pull back and once again begin heavy aerial assaults. You can call this a 1-2-1 punch. Instead the aerial attacks were followed by the u.s troops meeting little resistance, especially when the Baghdad Airport was over taken. This amazed military officials who were convinced the Airport would be fought to the death. We never planned to get their so quickly and we never planned on the lighting quick counter insurgency that followed. This was never anticipated during war planning. Simple enough for you Joe? Probably not. | ||
| Matthew Citizen Username: Basketball1127 Post Number: 100 Registered: 11-2004  |
 Straw... He's not well informed? | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2787 Registered: 12-2001 |
Drop back and try again after more air strikes? Never in the history of the U.S. military have we had a plan such as that. Not Tarawa. Not at Omaha Beach. Not at Iwo Jima. We have never dropped back except when absolutely forced to. This is political war planning at its worst. What nonsense. The rational war planners (i.e. not von Rumsfeld, Perle und Wolfowitz) had to have understood the significance of JDAMs that could destroy any target given the coordinates. I can accept surprise at the rapid collapse of Saddam's regime although based on their previous performance in Desert Storm, I can't see why anybody expected too much. However, anybody in a leadership position who professes surprise at an insurgency that has grown in strength over since the end of Saddam should be sacked. It's one thing to preach a line on nonsense, it's quite another to actually believe it. There were a few generals who knew this would happen - who was the off-message general talking about 250,000 soldiers? - but these off-message types were generally sacked as quickly as von Rumsfeld could make it happen. | ||
| Straw's world Citizen Username: Strawberry Post Number: 4126 Registered: 10-2001 |
"Drop back and try again after more air strikes? Never in the history of the U.S. military have we had a plan such as that>" Never before have we fought a war that we thought would include bio weapons. Planning for this type of war is a completely different ball game son. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2788 Registered: 12-2001 |
Unlike forty years of planning for war with the Warsaw Pact, sonny boy? You would perhaps know that hot, dry desert environments are the least conducive to the effective use of bio or chemical weapons against mobile military targets. Didn't your reporter buddies tell you that mobility is the soldiers' best defense against chemical and bio weapons? Please don't trot out the use of chemicals on the Kurds. Chemicals have always been deadly effective against unprepared civilian targets. Once again, you are so far out of your depth on this subject that I almost feel sorry for you. | ||
| Debby Citizen Username: Debby Post Number: 1410 Registered: 5-2001 |
"we never planned on the lighting quick counter insurgency that followed." That's exactly the problem. | ||
| Straw's world Citizen Username: Strawberry Post Number: 4127 Registered: 10-2001 |
"we never planned on the lighting quick counter insurgency that followed." That's exactly the problem." obviously Sherlock. | ||
| Straw's world Citizen Username: Strawberry Post Number: 4128 Registered: 10-2001 |
Tjohn, Let's see, I'm a Journalist with one of the most powerful News Organizations in the nation. I've interviewed General Franks twice on the subject. Last I remember you were looking to start your own handyman business. Sorry Tjohn. Your resume on the subject isn't anything anyone should take seriously. Oh by the way. I need some lights hung up. That's your speed, right? Interested in the work?  | ||
| Debby Citizen Username: Debby Post Number: 1411 Registered: 5-2001 |
So is that the answer to why the planning was done so incompetently..."Oops"? Belittling people who point out your fukkups doesn't erase them. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2790 Registered: 12-2001 |
General Franks wouldn't have a political agenda. Not a chance of that, having just architected the most unwise deployment of U.S. troops since Vietnam. I don't doubt that Franks knows his stuff, but he is also a political animal and his words are suspect. | ||
| Straw's world Citizen Username: Strawberry Post Number: 4129 Registered: 10-2001 |
Tjohn, I didn't mean to pick on your profession or potential profession, if indeed it's something you do down the road. You had it coming but it still wasn't right on my part. Despite my apology, I still don't think you have your eye on the ball on this one. | ||
| Marvin Gardens Citizen Username: Marvin_gardens Post Number: 158 Registered: 11-2003  |
Planning for this type of war is a completely different ball game Yes, but that doesn't explain why there wasn't any planning at all | ||
| Maple Man Citizen Username: Mapleman Post Number: 487 Registered: 6-2004  |
If this line of argument is supposed to dissuade someone from believing Rumsfeld et al are incredibly incompetent, I don't think it's going to work. | ||
| Face Citizen Username: Face Post Number: 449 Registered: 5-2001  |
As Straw correctly pointed out, RUMSFELD WAS SET UP. What is wrong with you people? Do you think the question Spc Thomas Wilson asked of Rumsfeld needed to be asked regardless of the reporter's involvement? Yes No You know that supposedly courageous soldier being hailed in the media for taking on Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld at that question and answer session in Kuwait? Turns out he was planted there by a reporter. So after all of these reports about the disgruntled rank-and-file "grilling" Rumsfeld, the whole thing turned out to be a sham. Figures. Apparently the perpetrator in all of this is one Edward Lee Pitts, reporter for the Chattanooga Times Free Press. Knowing that there would be a Q & A with Rumsfeld and that the press would not be allowed to ask questions, he decided to hatch his own plan to embarrass the secretary. He found some gullible troops and the plot was hatched. As Pitts himself tells the story in an e-mail leaked to the Drudge Report: "I was told yesterday that only soldiers could ask questions so I brought two of them along with me as my escorts. Before hand we worked on questions to ask Rumsfeld about the appalling lack of armor their vehicles going into combat have. While waiting for the VIP, I went and found the Sgt. in charge of the microphone for the question and answer session and made sure he knew to get my guys out of the crowd." So there you have it. Will the media fully retract their original stories, based on the fact that it did not take place the way it was originally described? Of course not. So you anti-war folks just go on peddling yourseleves off as concerned Americanss. Let me ask you a couple of questions. Which do you love more? Your country or the Democratic Party? Or do you just hate all things Bush? | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2791 Registered: 12-2001 |
Straw, I was just about to quote you a price. It seems there are more than a few people who will spend $50+ per hour to have somebody dependable hang up their Christmas lights. I might even throw in a free lesson on changing light bulbs. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2792 Registered: 12-2001 |
Face, The source of the question isn't all that important. The question resonated well with the troops. It is a question very near and dear to the hearts of all Reservists and National Guard who routinely make do with second-hand equipment. What is remarkable was von Rumsfeld's really callous answer. I think Mulshine captured it pretty well in his Star-Ledger column today. | ||
| themp Citizen Username: Themp Post Number: 1260 Registered: 12-2001 |
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2004/12/12.html#a1029 Interesting Chuck Hegel comments. | ||
| Joe Citizen Username: Gonets Post Number: 537 Registered: 2-2004 |
Straw, Thanks for the military strategist perspective on the aniticipated difficulties of invading Iraq. But you said: As I said no one anticipated the war being won as quickly as it was. (the heavy combat aspect that is).. This decisive destruction of Saddam's kingdom actually set us back since we never planned on it happening as fast as it did. That's just wrong. In the run up to the war, Rumsfeld gave the following timeframe for the defeat of Iraq: "It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months," A "Journalist with one of the most powerful News Organizations in the nation" should have been aware of this--as well as the many similar pre-invasion prognostications coming from the likes of Cheney, Perle, Wolfowitz, and others. (A journalist with one of the most powerful news organizations in the nation should also write in a less clumsy fashion but that's another matter. They probably have great editors where you work.) So Straw, which is it? Were you lying or merely grossly ill-informed when you made your laughable assertion that no one anticipated this being a quick war? Now, why am I not satisfied with the explanation that the occupation has gone poorly, because we were so darn successful with the war By the way thanks for the arm-chair general stuff. I'll give you a call when me and my 7th grade friends need another player for a game of Risk. You'll be easy pickings. | ||
| Nohero Citizen Username: Nohero Post Number: 4184 Registered: 10-1999  |
"Let's see, I'm a Journalist with one of the most powerful News Organizations in the nation. I've interviewed General Franks twice on the subject." Well lah-dee-dah! Still doesn't entitle you to mock soldiers who have been killed in Iraq. |
